Bottling Flanders Red - what to put on top of Cake?

So Im about to bottle my flanders red which is coming up a year old. It was fermented with ECY02 and left on the cake, im pretty keen to get another sour down and thinking I should drop something on top of the cake.....Problem is what!?

heres some ideas thrown around

imperial oud bruin, sour quad..........any ideas?

Whatever you want! I've been wanting to do a pumpkin sour, but am very intrigued by dark sours.

Just remember that second generation will have a higher population of LAB so it will sour quickly and aggressively. Don't be afraid to hop it a little higher this time around to keep it from getting too sour.

secondbase said:

Whatever you want! I've been wanting to do a pumpkin sour, but am very intrigued by dark sours.

Just remember that second generation will have a higher population of LAB so it will sour quickly and aggressively. Don't be afraid to hop it a little higher this time around to keep it from getting too sour.

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Ive just done an imperial oatmeal stout with jaggery aged on american oak which I think will work well.

id make a Flanders red but prepare this round to be more sour and ferment quicker

Dirty25 said:

id make a Flanders red but prepare this round to be more sour and ferment quicker

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yeah that sounds like a good idea, have you used ECY02 in this way?

kiwi_daz said:

yeah that sounds like a good idea, have you used ECY02 in this way?

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No but with ecy001 yes. I'm about to do this with dirty dozen also

Dirty25 said:

No but with ecy001 yes. I'm about to do this with dirty dozen also

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yeah im really interested about doing this, ive just done a beer on 2nd gen dirty dozen.

kiwi_daz said:

im pretty keen to get another sour down and thinking I should drop something on top of the cake.....

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Have you guys had good luck with dropping a new beer into the same fermenter directly on to the old yeat cake with Flanders Reds? I've got one that's been sitting in primary for about 13 months, and was thinking about doing the same thing.

Wondering if washing the yeast and re-pitching it into a different fermenter is a better solution?

talagor89 said:

Have you guys had good luck with dropping a new beer into the same fermenter directly on to the old yeat cake with Flanders Reds? I've got one that's been sitting in primary for about 13 months, and was thinking about doing the same thing.

Wondering if washing the yeast and re-pitching it into a different fermenter is a better solution?

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Why not rack the old beer out, dump whatever yeast cake will come out of the carboy without rinsing, and pour in the new wort, with a fresh charge of brewer's yeast?

I did this about 5 months ago but with the roesalare blend. Flanders red first then moved that over to a secondary. Went with a 1.058 70% pils 30% wheat brew. Put a little Belgian yeast in there too.
Soured quickly and much more sour than the first generation. Adding some raspberries to some of it now and blending some with the Flanders. Gonna bottle both in 2 months.

burninator said:

Why not rack the old beer out, dump whatever yeast cake will come out of the carboy without rinsing, and pour in the new wort, with a fresh charge of brewer's yeast?

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why not save some bucks and use a complex blend already mixed up for - use the old cake is what I intend to do. The main yeast is brett and it loves byproduct.

kiwi_daz said:

why not save some bucks and use a complex blend already mixed up for - use the old cake is what I intend to do. The main yeast is brett and it loves byproduct.

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Yeah, I'm definitely suggesting using the cake...should be plenty left in the carboy, even after you dump the excess slurry. I believe ECY02 contains a sacc strain, and after a year sitting in acidic beer, it's possible there won't much viable sacc left for a new fermentation.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm planning to do. Just making sure there's not anything else to consider before doing so. Assuming I'll need some fresh sacc, too?

talagor89 said:

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm planning to do. Just making sure there's not anything else to consider before doing so. Assuming I'll need some fresh sacc, too?

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Yes. I would add some fresh sacch along with the slurry, as most/all of the sacch from the initial pitch will be long gone.

talagor89 said:

Have you guys had good luck with dropping a new beer into the same fermenter directly on to the old yeat cake with Flanders Reds? I've got one that's been sitting in primary for about 13 months, and was thinking about doing the same thing.

Wondering if washing the yeast and re-pitching it into a different fermenter is a better solution?

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the whole cake from a previous batch is over-kill unless you want a VERY sour beer with little complexity (which is fine if that is your goal!).

hopbrad said:

Soured quickly and much more sour than the first generation.

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that's the standard feedback on repitching Roesalare - first batch isn't sour enough, repitch is very sour. it's due to the fact that a pouch of Roe contains a low cell count of souring bugs. they multiply over the life of the first batch, so by the time you repitch you're adding a lot more bugs the second time.

hopbrad said:

Gonna bottle both in 2 months.

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this is a brilliant idea. blend the first long-aged under-soured batch with the faster-soured second batch.

adding sacch is a good idea. it'll get things going quickly, protect the beer from infection, and provide by-products for the brett to transform.

sweetcell said:

the whole cake from a previous batch is over-kill unless you want a VERY sour beer with little complexity (which is fine if that is your goal!).


that's the standard feedback on repitching Roesalare - first batch isn't sour enough, repitch is very sour. it's due to the fact that a pouch of Roe contains a low cell count of souring bugs. they multiply over the life of the first batch, so by the time you repitch you're adding a lot more bugs the second time.


this is a brilliant idea. blend the first long-aged under-soured batch with the faster-soured second batch.

adding sacch is a good idea. it'll get things going quickly, protect the beer from infection, and provide by-products for the brett to transform.

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I dont believe repitching onto existing cake will make any less complex - can you elaborate on why you think/know this? I dont actually think the base sacc yeast is needed as the esters are swallowed up by the brett any ways. Maybe the brett wont produce as many esters? Im really curious as to get some solid feedback on cake re use against repitching slurry with fresh blends

kiwi_daz said:

I dont believe repitching onto existing cake will make any less complex - can you elaborate on why you think/know this?

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bacteria multiply faster than yeast. after a year, that cake will be mostly bacteria, with some brett and no viable sacch. to my palette, this creates a one-sided, less interesting beer because you'll get mostly straight-up sourness and little else.

kiwi_daz said:

I dont actually think the base sacc yeast is needed as the esters are swallowed up by the brett any ways.

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they aren't swallowed up and disappear, they are transformed. brett takes certain sacch esters and turns them into the fruit and funk flavors that brett is known for.

kiwi_daz said:

Maybe the brett wont produce as many esters?

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brett produces fewer esters than sacch. that's why a 100% brett beer is relatively clean.

an analogy that i really liked when i first heard it: sourness in sour/wild beers is like the bittering hops in clean beers, while the yeast esters and funk are the equivalents of aroma/flavor hops. i can't think of beer that i like that has only a ton of bitterness and no hop flavor/aroma.

this is my opinion, based on my experience and what i've read. if you want to pitch on top of the whole cake, go for it - it's what homebrewing is all about. please let us know how it turns out so we can all learn!

A nice compromise is to ferment the wort out with a clean, estery sacch strain, and rack this on to your sour cake. Keeps the sourness in check as most of the sugars are gone and gives the brett some food. This is what I usually do.