Where in the **** did that flavor come from?

Can bronze cause off flavors if used in a MT?
I've put together a water cooler MLT, and the first three batches since going AG have an awful off-flavor (harsh smell and flavor, bordering on rancid and/or chemically-ish). I used the same exact parts shown in the sticky on HBT except I couldn't find a 5/8" SS washer so I used a bronze fitting.
Or if bronze is ok, then is it fine to use the typical vinyl hose to transfer the hot wort to the kettle from the LT?

(I had a really long post going into all the different things I could think that could have gone wrong, but when I hit "Preview Post" I was taking to the registration page, and lost the whole thing , so we'll just see where this goes from here)

Bronze should be non-reactive. I'm wondering if you have a non-food grade tubing.

Your post is giving me second thoughts about the plastic tubing I just bought for mine.

Shek, you're in Long Beach, where did you get the tubing from?

Brewsmith said:

Shek, you're in Long Beach, where did you get the tubing from?

Click to expand...

I bought it with a racking cane, but I can't remember if it was from Steinfillers or the Home Cheese, Wine, Beer Making store up in the valley. It wasn't just random tubing from HD or Lowe's; but after the switch to AG is when I started to use it for hot liquids too. I tasted the wort before pitching (my sample for OG), and I didn't notice the off-flavor then, it just like sweet with hop bitterness. I can take a closer look at it after I get home from work. Thinking of trying to do a small AG brew but as a mini-mash in the kitchen on friday to see if I can get rid of the taste (avoid using the MLT).

Something similar happened when I went AG- my first couple of brews- lighter colored ales, tasted way off. It turned out to me by water, which is insanely hard. Are you using tap water? If so, try buying some spring water for your next batch, or cutting your tap water 50/50 with distilled. If you're already using storebought water, ignore this, but a charcoal filter doesn't remove the hardness in the water.

elkdog said:

Something similar happened when I went AG- my first couple of brews- lighter colored ales, tasted way off. It turned out to me by water, which is insanely hard. Are you using tap water? If so, try buying some spring water for your next batch, or cutting your tap water 50/50 with distilled. If you're already using storebought water, ignore this, but a charcoal filter doesn't remove the hardness in the water.

Click to expand...

AFAIK, my water should be ok. The report I'm working from is here (see the blended zone):
http://www.lbwater.org/pdf/longbeachccr.pdf
If I'm reading this wrong, and the water is way out of line someone please correct me!
Are there any other brewers in Long Beach that can vouch for the water report and using tap water?
All three batches went through the pur/brita (which I'm assuming mainly removes chloramine, if your tap water is otherwise drinkable). The first batch the water was used right after the filter. The 2nd batch I added some gypsum to the mash, and the 3rd batch I added some gypsum and some calciuim chloride to the mash. The 3rd batch was a lighter color beer (just pale malt, corn and rice), the first two batches were the same recipe (just pale malt and a little crystal 15).

Well I don't think the problem is the tubing, and it doesn't sound like the water either. At this point is sounds like a fermentation/yeast problem or infection. How did you pitch and ferment?

Brewsmith said:

Well I don't think the problem is the tubing, and it doesn't sound like the water either. At this point is sounds like a fermentation/yeast problem or infection. How did you pitch and ferment?

Click to expand...

The first batch was cooled from boiling to 75 using an IC, then poured through a fine strainer into a bucket, with a vial of WLP001 pitched (no starter) about 2/3rds of the way through the transfer. The bucket was left in a room with ambient air of about 70 (so it may have been a little warm for primary, but I've had some other warm ferms in the past and nothing that tasted like this). The OG was ~1.060. The second batch was almost exactly the same (brewed about a day later, into another bucket), but instead of trying to get the last couple oz of wort by pouring through the strainer I left all of the cold break and a little wort in the kettle. Both ferms started within 24 hrs. I kegged both after about two weeks in the primary, both measured SG around 1.010. They've been sitting in 70 deg kegs for two weeks and it doesn't seem like any change in flavor has happened (no change in gravity either). I'm willing to let them sit another month or two before I seriously start thinking about dumping; if there's no change in flavor.

The third batch is BM's cream of three crops. I cooled down to 66 deg, dumped the wort into a bucket (no strainer) but tried to keep the break in the kettle. The volume into the bucket was a little low so I topped it off with about 1/2 gallon of tap (OG around 1.040). Pitched a rehydrated packet of notty but it took over 48 hours for fermentation to really get going (I've complained about this on the notty thread). This ferm bucket was placed in a water bath with daily ice additions so the temp was mid-60's. It was brewed on 8/7 and with the slow start it's had about a week of prim ferm (checked the grav and tasted it late last night). I think I might give the Co3C recipe a try, but only a gallon or two mini-mash to try to start isolating parts of my process. I would think the turn-around time should only be two to three weeks, so hopefully if I do that a few times I might figure out what the problem relatively quickly. My sanitization could be better but I don't think it's necesarily bad. I boil and/or use bleach on everything and don't think I've had infections in the past (just a few warm fermentations every once in a while).

It could be an off flavor from the bleach. Are you rinsing well? Pick up some Starsan at Stein Fillers and give it a try. It's no rinse and only needs 30 seconds of contact time.

Brewsmith said:

It could be an off flavor from the bleach. Are you rinsing well? Pick up some Starsan at Stein Fillers and give it a try. It's no rinse and only needs 30 seconds of contact time.

Click to expand...

Will do, I think I'm going to get another brew bucket, and make a small batch using a mini-mash this friday. I've actually got enough left over hops from the Co3C that I could make four 2.5 gallon batches (or maybe 3 3.3 G batches), to try to figure out what is going wrong. Is it possible that all of these beers are significantly over bittered? And I'm just not recognizing it? I've had some very bitter beers before, but this flavor is only a few steps from gaggable.

If you think it may be over bitterness, could you be over sparging and pulling out too many tannins?

Beernik said:

If you think it may be over bitterness, could you be over sparging and pulling out too many tannins?

Click to expand...

If your temperatures are spot on, don't tannins only happen if you sparge down below a SG of 1.008? I think the last runnings were still like 1.010 for everything. I guess it's possible since my minimash brew was a lower efficiency but didn't have this off-flavor.

Tannins really have to do with pH, and the more you sparge, the higher your pH gets and the more you extract. The 1.010 rule is nice because that's about the point where the pH can rise enough to start pulling too much out of the grain.

If you have some of this bottled, maybe I can get a sample, taste it and get back with you on the flavors. We can sit here all day on all of the possible off flavors that it could be, but without tasting, it's hard to be sure.

Brewsmith said:

Tannins really have to do with pH, and the more you sparge, the higher your pH gets and the more you extract. The 1.010 rule is nice because that's about the point where the pH can rise enough to start pulling too much out of the grain.

If you have some of this bottled, maybe I can get a sample, taste it and get back with you on the flavors. We can sit here all day on all of the possible off flavors that it could be, but without tasting, it's hard to be sure.

Click to expand...

Both PA's are kegged, but I'll probably keg the cream ale at the end of the week, I can pull a little off into some flip-tops (I don't cap), to save for later just in case I don't get this figured out.

Maybe I can catch you at Stein Fillers sometime this week.

I think I’m going to alter my response. According to these websites, clear vinyl tubing has a max temperature rating anywhere from 80F to 165F.
Tubing, Poly Tubing, Silicone Tubing, Teflon Tubing, Vinyl Tubing
http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/webcatalogs/EN/MS-01-108.PDF

It probably isn’t easy to tell which you are buying at the hardware store. At Lowes today, all I could tell from what I previously bought it was good for 50psi at 70F.

Fortunately, at least for me, the fittings I got to connect the o.d. of my ½” clear vinyl tubing are the same size as ½” PEX.

However, I just found out that the PVC Schedule 40 pipe I just made my manifold out of is only temperature rated to 140F.

I’ll probably be heading back to the hardware store to change my manifold to PEX. PEX is temperature rated to 80psi at 200F.

I use vinyl tubing from Lowe's that probably isn't temp rated, and I have no off flavors. My money is on bleach. From How to Brew:

Medicinal
These flavors are often described as mediciney, Band-Aid™ like, or can be spicy like cloves. The cause are various phenols which are initially produced by the yeast. Chlorophenols result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (bleach) with phenol compounds and have very low taste thresholds. Rinsing with boiled water after sanitizing is the best way to prevent these flavors.

Click to expand...

Like others have said, I would recommend switching to star-san or rinsing 3-5 times w/ clean water after using bleach. How were you rinsing the bleach off with these batches?

I searched around some more. The 140F rating for PVC schedule 40 is its maximum temperature for pressure pipe applications. Which means that 140F is probably reaching the temperature at which the adhesive begins to stop working. And I found one manufacturer that said 180F is acceptable for it "intermittently".

Picobrew said:

I use vinyl tubing from Lowe's that probably isn't temp rated, and I have no off flavors. My money is on bleach. From How to Brew:

Like others have said, I would recommend switching to star-san or rinsing 3-5 times w/ clean water after using bleach. How were you rinsing the bleach off with these batches?

Click to expand...

Pretty sure I rinse at least three times whenever I use bleach (maybe more). I doubt it's bleach since I've never had this off-flavor before after using bleach for several years. Unless you need to wash much more thoroughly when using bleach in an MLT due to some kind of reaction with the mash (although I don't think I've sanitized the MLT, just cleaned it good).

If I have tannin extraction, should I be able to taste it in the wort before I boil? or maybe only in the final runnings before the boil?

After taking a closer look at the Palmer's section on mash pH, I think that maybe my pH was too high, at least judging by my recipes, my water report, and a beer color calculator I found online. The three batches with the bad flavor had two batches with SRM~5.5 and the other batch should be SRM~2.6. According to the graphical method shown my ideal SRM is about 10 to 15, so with such light colored beer (2.5-5.0) it looks like I would have needed some gypsum and calcium chloride (or some other addition). I did add some gypsum to the one of the batches, and added gypsum AND calcium chloride to one of the other batches, but after a closer look these might have only gotten the mash pH to be borderline. Thinking maybe my next attempt will be a small batch, with some supplies on hand to monitor the pH. I made an attempt at a Gordon Ale clone with a minimash before going AG and that didn't have these off-flavors (can't find my original grain bill), but I'd guess that the color was about 15. Or maybe my next batch should be a full 5G batch with either appropriate additions to fix the pH, or a darker grain bill.

Brewsmith said:

Maybe I can catch you at Stein Fillers sometime this week.

Click to expand...

SF, or anywhere else. I live in LB but work in Redondo. If anyone could take a taste and tell me if it's tannins (assuming due to high mash pH), or infection I think that would help me going forward. If it's tannins, I wonder if it might be worth it to try to use gelatin and/or polyclar to try to get rid of as much as possible and see if the brew is still salvageable. Either way, I'm going to try to make a small batch/AG-mini-mash of BM's Co3C this weekend and ferm in some very well sanitized growlers (and make sure to monitor the mash pH and adjust accordingly). I figure if I start the mini-mash using the same strike water as the last batch and my pH is way off, then that was likely the problem in my previous batches, but if the pH is reasonable, then I guess I've got a bug.

I guess it isn't bleach - sorry, didn't realize you had been using bleach for years. Did you use pilsner malt in any of these batches? how long did you boil? Can you describe the flavor more? Does it have that astringency like tea can have where it puckers your mouth, dries it out near the back of your teeth? Is it vegetabley at all?

Picobrew said:

I guess it isn't bleach - sorry, didn't realize you had been using bleach for years. Did you use pilsner malt in any of these batches? how long did you boil? Can you describe the flavor more? Does it have that astringency like tea can have where it puckers your mouth, dries it out near the back of your teeth? Is it vegetabley at all?

Click to expand...

No worries; two of the batches were 12# American Pale, 1.5# Crystal 15, the Co3C's was 6# American Pale, 2# Flaked Corn, 1# Minute Rice. So all the batches were pretty light colored. The two heavier batches were boiled for 60 minutes, the lighter batch was boiled for 90 minutes (all with the lid off). I'll be back with an edit when I take another taste after work, but I'm not sure if I would describe the off-flavor as a flavor, or at least I can't think of anything else I've tasted to compare it to, not veggies. Maybe I need to get a tea bag and tea bag myself so I know what it tastes like.... Should I be able to taste the harsh flavors from tannin extraction in the wort before the boil? Pretty sure that it just tasted sweet and malty pre-boil (not positive though).

Edit: So I took a sample from all three batches, checked the grav, and chilled each sample down to 50'ish deg to taste. The first batch had no brewing salts used and is undrinkable it tastes sooooo bad (I mean I could take a sip, and it then takes a little determination to force myself to take another small sip). The second batch (same recipe) has the same off-flavor but it's not as strong, but I added 1.5 tsp of gypsum to the 4 gallon of strike water. It's still pretty bad, but I can at least drink it without worrying about gag reflexes. Both of these batches should have a color of ~5 SRM, while my recommended range is like 13-18 SRM if I use my water as-is. The third batch was lighter (~ 2.6 SRM), but I added 1/2 tsp of gypsum and 1/2 calcium chloride to the 2 gallons of strike water. The third batch is almost drinkable, almost. The same type of off-flavor is there, but it's not as strong. Before going AG, I did a minimash batch that had an SRM of 13 (AFAIK, my notes are incomplete, but it was definitely darker than these three AG batches), with no additions to the water, and I didn't have these off-flavors in that brew. So far this leads me to believe that my problem was mash pH, but I'm a little surprised that missing having a mash pH of what I would guess was 5.9 or 6.0 would lead to such an awful flavor. If these are tannins, is it possible to clean them up a little with gelatin or polyclar? In addition to fixing my water for the next batch.

:bump:

How late are you at work? I'm over that way a lot and it wouldn't be a problem to get over to you. I'd be more than happy to get a sample from you to try it. If you don't want to post any personal info here, just PM me.

I'm still puzzled with the flavors you describe. My first instinct is to blame the brewing water, but if you are carbon filtering, you should be fine. I use filtered LADWP water and it is about perfect for brewing. I don't really have to make any adjustments. I wouldn't think your water is too much different. I'm stumped.

In Palmer's joy of home brewing, around page 260, he talks about bicarbonate hardness problems. If you have high bicarbonate, it buffers the pH of the mash and causes harsh flavors. He recommends gypsum, lactic acid and acid rest as possible solutions.

Beernik said:

In Palmer's joy of home brewing, around page 260, he talks about bicarbonate hardness problems. If you have high bicarbonate, it buffers the pH of the mash and causes harsh flavors. He recommends gypsum, lactic acid and acid rest as possible solutions.

Click to expand...

Before brewing these batches I guesstimated the color of the wort and did some salt additions for two of the three batches (see previous posts above). If my city's water report is accurate then the color was out of range by about 3 or even 8 SRM depending on the batch, after actually running the numbers through the spreadsheet on the howtobrew website (after making these batches, probably should have actually done the calcs first, but what fun would that be? ). I think this means that my mash pH might have been at least 5.7 or 5.8. Of the three batches I made, the one where the off-flavor is the worst is also the one that I didn't make any salt additions to. If the pH is as high as 5.7, .8, .9 or even 6.0 will the amount of tannins make it almost undrinkable?

I'm guessing yes.

Palmer doesn't say what mash and sparge pH will cause harsh, bitter, grainy flavors. But he says pH = 5.2 is optimum.

And remember pH is a log scale. So a pH of 5 is 10 times as acidic as a pH of 6. If there is a chance you are mashing at 6, I think it could be your problem.

On Palmer's How to brew website, chapter 15, section 3, he says pH of 5.6 is as high as you want to go for mashing. He also has some nomographs for additions to adjust pH based upon your water's mineral content.

You all type so fast. I guess now that bleach is out, I have nothing to offer. I use the tubing from HD and have never had any problems, but I make sure I soak them in hot water first. BPAs, anyone?

robertjohnson said:

You all type so fast. I guess now that bleach is out, I have nothing to offer. I use the tubing from HD and have never had any problems, but I make sure I soak them in hot water first. BPAs, anyone?

Click to expand...

Can you explain this a bit? How does soaking in hot water help?

Shek was nice enough to give me some samples. After tasting all three, I think it is a definite infection. Funky and fruity aromas that are the same in all three. There was some medicinal aroma in one, but it was the worst of the three.

As far as pH or something like that, there was nothing that was really harsh or astringent to any of these beers. They did not taste like there was any oversparging or minerally water problems. No biting bitterness or husky/overly grainy flavors and no sour notes.

The funk was not like a wild yeast/brett infection, and there was really not much pleasant about it. There were notes of appley fruit, but overpowered by the funk. The lighter one at first had notes similar to a hefeweizen, but the funk overpowered.

I'm glad I was able to put a set of taste buds to the test here, even if it meant having to taste bad beer. If it's in the persuit of making better beer I'm all for it.

I'm not sure how to quote someone, but if I did I'd be quoting picobrew here. I just figured there were residual chemicals on the tubes. That new car smell they give off disappears if they've been immersed in hot water. And they can easily be straightened by just hanging them until they've cooled off. I just hope it's not leeching BPAs into my beer.

"New car smell" is usually VOCs. And as VOCs are volitile, they should boil off in your brew.

I was more concerned with melting the tubing.

I'm glad the problem has been diagnosed. Strange that it only showed up in the all-grain.

So, I just brewed another batch of Co3C. Put it in a new ferm bucket after sanitizing it with bleach and I put it in a different part of my house to ferment. I've brewed a total of five batches of beer at my current house and the first two batches turned out and were fermed on a peninsula counter area between my kitchen and dining room. The three batches that have problems were all fermented in a corner of my bedroom. The two pale ales that were kegged have been sitting in the kegerator set to almost max cold. I added gelatin to both of them today, and one of them didn't taste nearly as bad as I recalled (not sure if maybe it was because it was cold). The previous batch of Co3C is still in the primary and I think I'm going to toss it in the kegerator with some gelatin for a while and see what happens. I used Palmer's mash pH spreadsheet to make sure that my mash should have been good, unfortunately my LHBS was out of test strips so I won't know for sure but I have a feeling it was at least closer than last time. I also learned that I can boil 5.5 gallons on the gas range on my stove (after running out of propane for the turkey fryer ). This has me tempted to try to build an insulated heat resistant sleave for my kettle so that I can brew inside. The cream ale is so cheap and simple that if this batch doesn't turn out, I'm going to keep trying to brew the same recipe until I nail it. Next time around (depending on how the batch I just brewed turns out) will include pH test strips, and trying to go overboard with sanitization, and making a starter.