Anybody ranting about the results from the National HB competition yet?

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Indyking

Indyking

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Just got the results from the first round. It appears that results are not available for all judging centers yet.

Overall, actually very pleased with it. All judges provided more detailed feedback than I was expecting and their email contact, though only one of them actually had some suggestions of what I could do to fix a perceived problem. The AHA instructions to read the sheet was also pretty good.

Now, I wouldn't call it a rant precisely, but here comes the criticism. I understand judging beer is somewhat subjective, variation in opinions among judges is normal to some extent, results have to be taken with grain of salt, and we should ultimately look for trends. However, I can't help it but be puzzled with comments like these:

Sweet stout:
Judge 1: "Lacking the sweet character that is the hallmark of the style"
Judge 2: "Sweet smelling, good balance of sweet and bitter"

Both judges however gave me the same score, just a hair short from advancing to the second round :-(

Classic Amber Pils:
Judge 1: "Thin body and low carbonation"
Judge 2: "Medium body with proper carbonation"

Judge 1, despite of the criticism and discordance, gave it a score good enough to move to the second round..., but the other 2 judges had lower scores that pushed the average just 0.7 short from advancing to the second round? Come on... couldn’t they reach a consensus here and move it forward?

Bohemian Pils.

OK, this one had some problems; I actually knew it but wanted to submit anyway just to see if they would pick up what I thought was happening. They all (3/3) agreed it had too much esters for a Pils, totally inappropriate for the style. Good and concur! Still not sure what caused it though???

The thing that caught my attention though was that 2/3 also picked up some diacetyl, which I don't notice at all. Also, if really real, not sure what caused it, as I did do a D-rest, used the appropriate yeast with a starter (likely to be healthy), fermented in the low end of the temps recommended by the yeast manufacturer, and aerated really well (I have the oxinator thing). Odd.
 
1. You can't know that your scores were within x of advancing as the entries don't advance based on score, they advanced based on mini-bos placement.

2. On the sweet stout I am guessing judge 1 is a better judge and had a better scoresheet overall. The snippet you posted from judge 2 is awkward and non-descriptive (things don't smell sweet (smell a bag of sugar sometime), they may smell like things that are sweet like caramel or cookies).

3. A small amount of diacetyl shouldn't be a problem in bohemian pils. In either case, most people in the interwebs including this site do diacetyl rests wrong, you have to do it before attenuation is complete.

4. Is a classic amber pilsner made with caramel malt? Some people confuse sweetness with mouthfeel. Could have been thin but sweet and judge 2 interprets that as medium bodied. I would think a pilsner would be allowed to have a fairly light body anyway.
 
Indy, check out this thread I had a little while ago.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/competition-results-useless-227823/

Remilard provided some very good tips on interpretting and understanding the results. Two judges stating opposing critiques is not uncommon. To really get an accurate judging on your beer you would need to have more judges taste it. You would see a trend at that point.
 
remilard said:
1. You can't know that your scores were within x of advancing as the entries don't advance based on score, they advanced based on mini-bos placement.

2. On the sweet stout I am guessing judge 1 is a better judge and had a better scoresheet overall. The snippet you posted from judge 2 is awkward and non-descriptive (things don't smell sweet (smell a bag of sugar sometime), they may smell like things that are sweet like caramel or cookies).

3. A small amount of diacetyl shouldn't be a problem in bohemian pils. In either case, most people in the interwebs including this site do diacetyl rests wrong, you have to do it before attenuation is complete.

4. Is a classic amber pilsner made with caramel malt? Some people confuse sweetness with mouthfeel. Could have been thin but sweet and judge 2 interprets that as medium bodied. I would think a pilsner would be allowed to have a fairly light body anyway.
Click to expand...

1. I thought all brews scoring more than 30 points advance to second round? That's what I thought I read in the instructions upon registering anyway.

2. The sheet from judge 2 was more detailed, but I guess more details does not necessarily means better. Nevertheless, the beer does taste pretty sweet, which made me wonder what that judge tasted before tasting my stout. I mean, do they drink a little bit of water or something like that to reset the palate before the next try? I even thought I added too much lactose to it, although some may argue that lactose does not add that much sweetness.

3. I believe I do effective D-rests. I always do in the last quarter of fermentation, where diacetyl production has decreased dramatically but there is still good yeast activity to remove it. I agree my Pilsner have flaws, but diacetyl does not seem a hard taste to pick up and don’t think mine had any significant amounts.

4. Yes, that could be the case as I did use caramel. But the carbonation disconnects between the judges were puzzling to say the least. One does not need to be a certified judge to judge carbonation in a beer IMHO.

Thanks for your feedback!
 
Indyking said:
Sweet stout:
Judge 1: "Lacking the sweet character that is the hallmark of the style"
Judge 2: "Sweet smelling, good balance of sweet and bitter"

Both judges however gave me the same score, just a hair short from advancing to the second round :-(

Classic Amber Pils:
Judge 1: "Thin body and low carbonation"
Judge 2: "Medium body with proper carbonation"
Click to expand...

Feedback like this is why I don't waste my time with competitions.
 
Indyking said:
4. Yes, that could be the case as I did use caramel. But the carbonation disconnects between the judges were puzzling to say the least. One does not need to be a certified judge to judge carbonation in a beer IMHO.
Click to expand...

You would think....

I couldn't tell you the number of judges that I have judged with that as soon as they get the beer in their hands they start swirling the beer like there is no tomorrow. Like they are trying to centrifuge something out of it. Fine, it does help free up aromatics and such. But then 10 minutes later after filling out aroma, appearance, and mouthfeel they go taste the beer and notice that it is flat. Well no ****.....

I swirl the beers I judge all the time. But I also re-pour a small taste to re-evaluate carbonation and mouthfeel (by that time the beer is usually quite warm too). I have judged with guys that have commented that the carbonation was low and I would re-pour a small taste and they would be like "oh weird....."
 
Indyking said:
1. I thought all brews scoring more than 30 points advance to second round? That's what I thought I read in the instructions upon registering anyway.
Click to expand...

I think you get a certificate (for a making a good beer) for scoring 30 or above. And, even if you place, you will not advance unless you score at least 30. Or something to that effect.
 
NHC2011 Rules and Regulations


B. First Round Awards
(1) Ribbons will be awarded to the first-, second-, and third-place finishers scoring 30 or higher
in each category from the U.S. First Round NHC competition sites.
Entries must score 30 or better to place in the First Round and advance to the Final Round,
although scoring a 30 or better does not guarantee advancement to the Final Round.
If there are not three entries scoring 30 or better in a given category, judges will advance fewer than three entries for that category.

 (2) Certificates will be awarded to First Round brewers based on judges’ scoring and the
following standards:
• Gold-Certificate winners have scores of 38-50,
• Silver-Certificate winners have scores of 30 to 37,
• Bronze-Certificate winners have scores of 25 to 29
Certificates are awarded separately from the ribbons and DO NOT indicate winning first, second or third place within a category or advancement to the Final Round.
 
I got the scores back for my APA...
one judge gave it a 35 and the other a 36. The sheet said my beer made it to the mini best of show round!

I havent heard anything else from them, when do they let you know if you advanced or not?
 
mattldm said:
I got the scores back for my APA...
one judge gave it a 35 and the other a 36. The sheet said my beer made it to the mini best of show round!

I havent heard anything else from them, when do they let you know if you advanced or not?
Click to expand...

In the same area where your score is on the competition cover sheet is a PLACE AWARDED box. If it is empty, you didn't advance. Only first, second and third in the category are advanced.
 
my only rant is that my scores on the first page do not = judge 1 + judge 2 / 2.

Sometimes they rounded up, sometimes down, and sometimes used .5 points...
 
AZ_IPA said:
my only rant is that my scores on the first page do not = judge 1 + judge 2 / 2.

Sometimes they rounded up, sometimes down, and sometimes used .5 points...
Click to expand...

"Final Assigned Score
At least two judges from the flight in which your beer was entered reached consensus on your final assigned score. It is not necessarily an average of the individual scores."
 
Wayne1 said:
"Final Assigned Score
At least two judges from the flight in which your beer was entered reached consensus on your final assigned score. It is not necessarily an average of the individual scores."
Click to expand...

Damn you and your understanding of the process!!!! :D

Thanks Wayne. :mug:
 
AZ_IPA said:
Damn you and your understanding of the process!!!! :D

:mug:
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's a heavy load actually participating as a judge and helping the organizer unpack and sort 750 entries for the Denver NHC. ;)

In my over 20 years as a BJCP judge, this was the first competition I made the time to help out "behind the scenes". It gave me a great respect for all the work that goes into the logistics of putting on a competition.
 
Wayne1 said:
In the same area where your score is on the competition cover sheet is a PLACE AWARDED box. If it is empty, you didn't advance. Only first, second and third in the category are advanced.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say this is exactly true, especially with NHC. Often the cover sheets aren't completed and with NHC some regions do their best to keep who advances a secret till all are revealed
 
Bokonon said:
I wouldn't say this is exactly true, especially with NHC. Often the cover sheets aren't completed and with NHC some regions do their best to keep who advances a secret till all are revealed
Click to expand...

I will bow to your experience in other regions :mug:

In the Denver region for the last few years, all the entries who advance are read out to all in attendance at the end of the competition. There is much joy and celebration for the locals who advance.

I guess, according to strict reading of the posted rules, formal notification will be posted by the AHA the first week of May http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/competitions/national-homebrew-competition/winners
 
Wayne1 said:
In the Denver region for the last few years, all the entries who advance are read out to all in attendance at the end of the competition. There is much joy and celebration for the locals who advance.
Click to expand...

This is not the way the system is supposed to work. Having advance notice gives those people who want to rebrew a significant head start.
I suspect Denver will be hearing from AHA regarding this practice.
 
smp1 said:
This is not the way the system is supposed to work. Having advance notice gives those people who want to rebrew a significant head start.
I suspect Denver will be hearing from AHA regarding this practice.
Click to expand...

Seeing as Gary Glass and Janis Gross both judged at the Denver regional this year, I suspect they already know about it.
 
Bokonon said:
I wouldn't say this is exactly true, especially with NHC. Often the cover sheets aren't completed and with NHC some regions do their best to keep who advances a secret till all are revealed
Click to expand...

Very interesting. One of my entries from the NW region has a '2' in this box which I assume means it is going on. I had a few other beers score quite high (40's) which I've since consumed the bottles I had allocated for the 2nd round. It'll be interesting to see what gets posted next week... maybe I'll have to rush a couple batches out.
 
smp1 said:
This is not the way the system is supposed to work. Having advance notice gives those people who want to rebrew a significant head start.
I suspect Denver will be hearing from AHA regarding this practice.
Click to expand...

AFAIK every region has done this in recent memory, at least most of them.

And, yeah, Janis was standing there in Denver when they did it, so no need to notify her.

The problem is that at least the organizers and one or two of their assistants (and everyone who judged or stewarded for those categories) know the results. You know as well as I do that they aren't going to keep that to themselves. So you can't keep the results a secret, you can only decide how exclusive a group you want to get the results early.
 
remilard said:
AFAIK every region has done this in recent memory, at least most of them.

And, yeah, Janis was standing there in Denver when they did it, so no need to notify her.

The problem is that at least the organizers and one or two of their assistants (and everyone who judged or stewarded for those categories) know the results. You know as well as I do that they aren't going to keep that to themselves. So you can't keep the results a secret, you can only decide how exclusive a group you want to get the results early.
Click to expand...

Inasmuch as new entry numbers are reassigned when NHC entries are checked in, the only thing that the Judges and Stewards know is the newly issued entry number. Only a select few have access to the Master List that correlates the new entry numbers with the online-issued entry numbers, which have names associated with numbers. This could include the Competition Coordinator, Judge Director, and whomever is running the database on the computer. It's not too much to ask these people to keep the information under wraps until all the results are released.

I certainly understand your satisfaction with a process that includes you in the "exclusive group" that received their results in early April, but for those who haven't gained "exclusivity" yet, there is a definite disadvantage. Why else would the AHA website pay lip service to the need to release all the results at the same time:
" In order to be fair to all entrants of the National Homebrew Competition, the winners lists for all 10 competitions will be posted simultaneously. If there are competitions which are still being judged, no winners can be posted."

I've judged at 3 NHC Regionals,(Northwest/Seattle), and I haven't seen any results given out.

The AHA can run this any way they want. Let's just let everyone else in on the gag.....
 
smp1 said:
Inasmuch as new entry numbers are reassigned when NHC entries are checked in, the only thing that the Judges and Stewards know is the newly issued entry number. Only a select few have access to the Master List that correlates the new entry numbers with the online-issued entry numbers, which have names associated with numbers. This could include the Competition Coordinator, Judge Director, and whomever is running the database on the computer. It's not too much to ask these people to keep the information under wraps until all the results are released.

I certainly understand your satisfaction with a process that includes you in the "exclusive group" that received their results in early April, but for those who haven't gained "exclusivity" yet, there is a definite disadvantage. Why else would the AHA website pay lip service to the need to release all the results at the same time:
" In order to be fair to all entrants of the National Homebrew Competition, the winners lists for all 10 competitions will be posted simultaneously. If there are competitions which are still being judged, no winners can be posted."

I've judged at 3 NHC Regionals,(Northwest/Seattle), and I haven't seen any results given out.

The AHA can run this any way they want. Let's just let everyone else in on the gag.....
Click to expand...

I have never judged at the same region I have entered.

Seattle, for example, sent out scoresheets weeks ago and Seattle entrants had their results weeks ago, before the AHA posts results. Are you on crack or did you not think this through?
 
Mischief_Brewing said:
Just be happy you've seen your results. New York (Sarasota) hasn't even freaking finished yet!
Click to expand...

I feel your pain brother, I feel your pain! I have a Belgian strong (don't expect it to advance as it out of style at 16.5ABV, but wanted some feedback) and a specialty category, Dry Stout with Vanilla and Kona Coffee that is one of the best beers I have ever brewed.
 
remilard said:
I have never judged at the same region I have entered.

Seattle, for example, sent out scoresheets weeks ago and Seattle entrants had their results weeks ago, before the AHA posts results. Are you on crack or did you not think this through?
Click to expand...

I entered the NW region and received my scoresheets quickly, but they are keeping who advanced under lock and key. I wasn't able to get over to judge this year but the judges I talked to who also had entries in also don't know if they advanced or not.
 
remilard said:
I have never judged at the same region I have entered.

Seattle, for example, sent out scoresheets weeks ago and Seattle entrants had their results weeks ago, before the AHA posts results. Are you on crack or did you not think this through?
Click to expand...

Yes, I have my scoresheets that I received 3 days after the judging was finished, but there is absolutely no information about whether or not any of these beers advanced to the Second Round. Your comment about my being on crack is not useful to the discussion about certain individuals in certain regions getting advance notice that specific entries have advanced, thereby giving those people weeks of advance time to rebrew those styles that are less suitable to extended time in the bottle.
 
smp1 said:
Yes, I have my scoresheets that I received 3 days after the judging was finished, but there is absolutely no information about whether or not any of these beers advanced to the Second Round. Your comment about my being on crack is not useful to the discussion about certain individuals in certain regions getting advance notice that specific entries have advanced, thereby giving those people weeks of advance time to rebrew those styles that are less suitable to extended time in the bottle.
Click to expand...

Remilard resorting to insults without even being in a debate? Yeah that doesn't sound out of character. ;)
 
smp1,

In reading over the rules and regulations of the AHA NHC, I DO NOT see anything that forbids any judging center director from releasing the information as to who is going on to the second round. The only formal wording in the rules and regulations relate to the final time the entrant must be notified.

"The Judging Center directors will strive to mail score sheets with judges’ comments to entrants by May 27, 2011.

If any of your entries qualify for the Final Round judging, the AHA will mail you notice by the third week of May with instructions on how, when and where to send entries [three (3) bottles per qualifying entry] for Final Round judging.

Contestants are advised to refrigerate or properly store potential Final Round entries to minimize changes in character. RE-BREWING recipes of entries advancing from First Round IS PERMITTED"


There is a note on the AHA website:

NOTE: In order to be fair to all entrants of the National Homebrew Competition, the winners lists for all 10 competitions will be posted simultaneously. If there are competitions which are still being judged, no winners can be posted. The competitions run through April 30th, so the winners lists will be posted on NHC Winners during the first week of May.


Again, there is nothing in writing that forbids informal notification by the judging directors to entrants that their beer will be going on to the second round.

At least two judging centers have notified entrants that their beers will be going on. Ft. Worth and Denver.

Just because you entered a judging center that chooses not to notify entrants is no reason to get bent out of shape because some others are willing to let entrants know their status. You might want to consider this information if you choose to enter the competition next year to decide where you wish to enter.
 
yeah, they have to be able to announce them at the judging sites. I mean come on, give the judges a little bit more than a pat on the back and a thank you. remember this is all fun..
 
smp1 said:
Yes, I have my scoresheets that I received 3 days after the judging was finished, but there is absolutely no information about whether or not any of these beers advanced to the Second Round. Your comment about my being on crack is not useful to the discussion about certain individuals in certain regions getting advance notice that specific entries have advanced, thereby giving those people weeks of advance time to rebrew those styles that are less suitable to extended time in the bottle.
Click to expand...

Actually the cover sheet contains the information you seek. None of your entries advanced (if "Place Awarded" is blank on each).

I know several people who advanced out of Seattle this week, they know they advanced because their beers placed and the place was indicated.
 
remilard said:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/2011-aha-nhc-whatcha-got-232987/index9.html

Start at post 83 in that thread if anyone still believes that Seattle is keeping information about advancing entries under "lock and key". Like I said before, people in Seattle had this information BEFORE any other region. I am amazed that this issue is taking so long to settle.
Click to expand...

I also had a "1st" for one of my entries. On contacting the judge I found out it was 1st from that flight and no connection to the mini-BOS results. I also had an IIPA that scored 44 but there was no mention of it making it to the mini-BOS round. Though some of my other scoresheets did indicate beers advancing to mini-BOS round. I suspect some placements were filled out on the cover sheet but the majority were not.

I talked to the judge director from the region and the registrar wasn't sharing that info with anyone even him.
 
Bokonon said:
I also had a "1st" for one of my entries. On contacting the judge I found out it was 1st from that flight and no connection to the mini-BOS results. I also had an IIPA that scored 44 but there was no mention of it making it to the mini-BOS round. Though some of my other scoresheets did indicate beers advancing to mini-BOS round. I suspect some placements were filled out on the cover sheet but the majority were not.

I talked to the judge director from the region and the registrar wasn't sharing that info with anyone even him.
Click to expand...

If the cover sheets were filled out on that basis, they were filled out incorrectly.

In any case, it really doesn't seem like Seattle has the results under lock and key since, based on what you are telling me, they performed no quality control on the coversheets. Presumably there were one or two judges there that knew what they were doing and therefore one or two entrants that got their correct results.

In any case, all I wanted to do was dispute the absurd notion that Seattle went to heroic efforts to hide the results that no other region did. It seems like we are coming to agree that was not the case.
 
mattldm said:
Whats going on in New York!? Why is it taking them so long to complete their first round judging?
Click to expand...

Janis Gross just got an email from the organizer this morning and hopes to have all results posted by tomorrow or Friday at the latest.

I sent 3 entries to Saratoga :confused::mad:
 

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