Braid question - husks/particles in runoff

Hi everyone,

So I recently switched over to a SS braid setup with an XTREME cooler...used to be running a copper manifold on the bottom of one of those round orange Gott coolers.

Anyway I've noticed my runoff seems a bit "dirtier" than it used to look with the manifold. At first I thought it was because I had too much braid line, and perhaps it was getting kinked and little gaps were opening...which let more husks in, etc etc. So yesterday I but a big section of braid and condensed it down as much as possible so that there were no obvious gaps between any of the little SS threads. Same thing, no matter how much I runoff I see little bits of stuff in my wort.

At first the runoff is very grainy...with bigger chunks of white pieces/husks. After a few quarts of recirculating it gets much cleaner...but no matter what I still see very little white "bits" in my runoff and swirling around in my kettle. Just to be 100% clear, these aren't big grain husk pieces. I'm talking about very very small almost "dust like" things.

If you use a SS braid, what does your runoff look like when you go to your kettle? My obvious concern here is astringency...but I'm starting to wonder if what I'm seeing is normal. And perhaps my last setup was just "extra clean"

I would check the connection points. I have never seen particles of any size in any of the runnings. The first vorlauf or two is a bit cloudy, but that's it. No particles. Sounds like there is a gap somewhere else. I also have never tried compressing or doing anything with the braid. Just seemed to work great first time every time.

Not sure it's a connection point issue. I just have a single 3/8" nipple that the braid connects to using a hose clamp. I think it's very unlikely there's a loose point there.

Just to be 100% clear, my setup is like this:

Ball valve>cooler wall>brass nipple>single length of 8-10" hose braid. The braid has a coiled copper line inside to prevent getting flattened in the mash. The opposite end of the braid is kinked and kept shut using another hose clamp.

what size supply line did you take your braid from?

you say you have the braid attached directly to the pipe nipple which is 3/8" really 1/2" OD. Sounds to me like your connection point has made the braid very porous.

The braid works like a Chinese finger lock. push from both ends and the mesh opens up. Pull from both ends the braid becomes tighter.

sounds like you have it going over a much larger nipple then it should be going over. If this is the case

go to Home Depot and ask for a copper 3/8" npt female to 3/8 sweat adapter fitting, or get a lead free brass reducing coupling 3/8" to 1/4". That should tighten the braid up. then wrap the end of the frayed braid n Teflon tape then put your hose clamp on covering the tape end.

OLDBREW said:

The braid works like a Chinese finger lock. push from both ends and the mesh opens up. Pull from both ends the braid becomes tighter.

Click to expand...

That might be it. I always try to make sure the braid goes as far across the bottom of my mash tun as I can. I don't really pull on it, but when I dry it, I have the braid hanging down. (Mine is rectangular). Maybe the little brass plug on the far end helps keep the braid mesh tight.

Took a look at my setup again - still can't find any spot where there's a potential leak. The nipple fits snug with connecting end of the braid and the hose clamp is on there tight.

New thought: perhaps I'm using a cooler that's too big for my purposes. Currently I'm doing normal strength (1.050-1.060) 5 gallon batches and am using a rectangular 48 qt XTREME.

Maybe I need to try and find a square cooler with less bottom surface area so I get a thicker bed?

llamatabrew said:

Took a look at my setup again - still can't find any spot where there's a potential leak. The nipple fits snug with connecting end of the braid and the hose clamp is on there tight.

New thought: perhaps I'm using a cooler that's too big for my purposes. Currently I'm doing normal strength (1.050-1.060) 5 gallon batches and am using a rectangular 48 qt XTREME.

Maybe I need to try and find a square cooler with less bottom surface area so I get a thicker bed?

Click to expand...

Since coolers are so cheap, might be a good option. Then you would have a bigger one for higher gravity beers.
Mine is a 36 quart Igloo rectangular, and I've never had a problem.

I have the same setup with a 52 qt Xtreme. I get teh same results that you do...a lot of material that is passed through. Honestly, I never have worried about it much. 1.) I have always been told that a lot of sediment is not a bad thing. 2.) The yeast really do a number on the particles. By the end of fermentation, the sediment/material is probably cut in half or more.

It was always a mystery to me also. I just couldn't find any spot where those larger particles where getting through. However, I just never gave it too much thought.

John

FWIW, I have basically the same setup and don't have much material pass through at all. I usually recycle 2 quarts before collection, no problems. Those 2 quarts, though, are VERY dirty.

johnodon said:

I have the same setup with a 52 qt Xtreme. I get teh same results that you do...a lot of material that is passed through. Honestly, I never have worried about it much. 1.) I have always been told that a lot of sediment is not a bad thing. 2.) The yeast really do a number on the particles. By the end of fermentation, the sediment/material is probably cut in half or more.

It was always a mystery to me also. I just couldn't find any spot where those larger particles where getting through. However, I just never gave it too much thought.

John

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, nice to hear I'm not the only one. My concern with the material is astringency from the boil, not clarity.

BrewBrain said:

FWIW, I have basically the same setup and don't have much material pass through at all. I usually recycle 2 quarts before collection, no problems. Those 2 quarts, though, are VERY dirty.

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Yeah, it usually takes about 2-4 quarts of VERY dirty runoff, then I get nothing but these very tiny white particles...but they stay constant. I tasted the latest batch last night finally and didn't get any crazy upfront astringency. I'd like a more "trained" pallet to give it a shot before I draw any conclusions...but perhaps the white particulars are just interior grain matter...not husks. Therefore no astringency.

I think you just convinced me to add an extra step to my brewing process. Once I get the wort cooled to 80*, I am going to run it through a 5 gal paint strainer bag into a plastic fermenting bucket.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_126394-968-...&pl=1&currentURL=/pl__0__s?Ntt=paint+strainer

From there, I will then transfer it to my glass carboy fermenter. This should catch all of the larger particles from going into the primary.

I know it adds extra work, but I don't feel ike fiddling with my mash tun or braid just yet.

John

llamatabrew said:

Yeah, it usually takes about 2-4 quarts of VERY dirty runoff, then I get nothing but these very tiny white particles...but they stay constant. I tasted the latest batch last night finally and didn't get any crazy upfront astringency. I'd like a more "trained" pallet to give it a shot before I draw any conclusions...but perhaps the white particulars are just interior grain matter...not husks. Therefore no astringency.

Click to expand...

I seriously doubt there could be enough grain particles to cause any astringency problems. I don't know the scientific answer to "how much is too much", but I'd guess I could skip recirculating at all and not notice the difference in taste. I'll never do this on purpose though - even with low risk, the risk/reward ratio is horrible considering how little work recirculating is.

Boiling the grain bed the Alton way would cause me some concern:fro:

I feel lucky when I read about the vorlauf for other folks. I have a one quart pyrex bowl I use for that purpose. I think I have filled it maybe three times at the max and sometimes that last run was just for grins. Usually by about halfway through the second bowl it is clear enough for me, and I have never seen any particles at all. It is just cloudy.

IIRC, there are numerous people here who have reported not vorlaufing at all and having no astringency problems. And lots of people who know far more than I do have said that there's not much of a relationship between how clear the pre-boil wort is and the final clarity of the beer.

Denny Conn's recommendation (again, IIRC) is to vorlauf just until there aren't any big grain pieces heading into the kettle. Any more really isn't necessary. Seems to work for me.

yes. no grain bits going into the boiler, cloudy wort is okay

How fine is your crush?

When using the braid, it really doesn't need to be the full length of the bottom of the cooler when batch sparging. The nipples end is where the drainage point is. The longer braid just allows a gutter way to the drain point. Tipping the cooler toward the nipple would give you the same effect with just a short piece of SS braid acting as the filter.

You shouldn't need any wire coil inside the braid or a plug in the end to make it work.

What I do with those Coleman xtreme coolers is to leave the original drains on. They use the same sized drain setup on all the sizes I've looked at, worked on, or used.

You can swap this braid setup from one size to another for different batch sizes.

You want the coolers with the drain coming out the end, not the luggage telescopic handle styles with the wheels and the drain going out the back of the hump.

You can cut a small section (2 - 2 1/4") of racking cane off and you'll put your 3/8" ID tubing on the one end.

You take the SS braid completely off of a sink supply line, cutting both ends off, then tightly folding and crimping one end closed so there are no frayed strands sticking out. If you are using a larger cloths washer supply hose's braiid, that may be your problem with he weave being a lot more coarse.

You take the other end and slide that over the racking cane, then take some Teflon tape and wrap the braid end so the tape covers the frays and make a smooth surface. Take the hose clamp and tighten the braid onto the cane.
You can now slide the tubing through the existing drain from the inside until the racking cane snugs up into the drain. This makes a watertight seal. On the outside you slide a dura-lock tubing clamp on for shutoff/flow control.

I put experiments to test here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/finally-found-use-funnel-clogs-so-easily-196501/

John