Slow fermentation w/ Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison

About 3 weeks ago I brewed a Saison. AG, nailed all my temps and numbers, SG of 1062. I made a 1800 ml starter for some old (6/29/11) Wyeast 3724 and got decent growth. Pitched and had great krausen and activity within 8 hours. So, little lag time and visible activity. I started at 65°F and slowly ramped to about 78° over the course of next 10 days. I use a wine fridge w/ a digital temp controller to control fermentation temps. One day the 60w bulb I was using to keep temps up

3724 is slow at those temps, if you want it to ferment quickly, you need to ramp from pitching temps into the high 80s, low 90s.

About 3 weeks ago I brewed a Saison. AG, nailed all my temps and numbers, SG of 1062. I made a 1800 ml starter for some old (6/29/11) Wyeast 3724 and got decent growth. Pitched and had great krausen and activity within 8 hours. So, little lag time and visible activity. I have used much older yeast with great results and saw nothing that caused me concern. I started at 65°F and slowly ramped to about 78° over the course of next 10 days. I use a wine fridge w/ a digital temp controller to control fermentation temps. The 60w bulb I was using to keep temps up ended up overworking the fridge and came home to a fridge giving an error message and temps around 85, beer temps at about 81-82. Not too crazy. Got fridge reset and temps back under control. Figured after a week and a half I was past the majority of ester production. By morning I was back to around 77-78. Kept chugging a way, maintaining 75-76. Today was day 21 of active fermentation, though it appeared to be slowing down. Krausen fell around day 16-17. Nothing but little bubbles from CO2 production and yeast rafts on the surface. I was starting to worry about an infection because of the length of primary fermentation, but no evidence on visual inspection. I brew mostly Belgian style ales and have had fermentations remain active for 2-3 weeks before, so I wasn't too worried. I made a starter for some Brett I harvested from a bottle of Crooked Stave that I planned to add to a couple gallons of this Saison as an experiment. Took a sample (expecting at least 1010 & probably closer to 1006) and was surprised to get a sweet 1030. I am not sure why the gravity is still so high. I swirled the carboy to rouse the yeast and am bringing temps back up to around 80 to keep it working. Just wondering if anyone has had similar experiences with this yeast and has any suggestions. I am used to babying Belgian yeasts to maximize attenuation, but I have never gone 3 weeks to only get halfway to my expected FG. I can still pitch the Brett to finish off the whole batch, but would really like to compare the Brett and non-Brett versions. For now I plan to RDWHAHB, but I'd like to figure out what is up. Whatcha think?

Very common issue with that yeast. Being that you've been around the forum for a while, I'm surprised you hadn't seen other people having issues with it.

In any case, that yeast still gives you a spectacular flavor as long as you baby it out to completion. If you can warm it back up to 80 that will help a lot. You can also rock the carboy to rouse the yeast up.

Your mistake was lowering the temp after it got hot. 3724 loves heat but does not like the temp to drop while it is working. Try heating it up to more like 90 and it will finish. Get it hot and let it work.

I want to avoid extreme ester production. I like the flavor profile of Belgian strains, but I don't like phenolic nanners! Check the complete post.... I'm guilty of premature posting in this thread!

I want to avoid extreme ester production. I like the flavor profile of Belgian strains, but I don't like phenolic nanners! I know a lot of people say to keep ramping the temps, but I also know that we homebrewers using carboys can't use the same fermentation profiles as bigger brewers with conicals or big open fermentation vessels. I wanted to walk the line between keeping it going and getting crazy fusel alcohol and ester production. Apparently saison yeasts and other finicky Belgians don't act the same.

I posted on your other thread, but I'll chip in here to say not to worry about extreme ester/phenol production from hot-fermenting saisons. The profile changes with temp, but you're never gonna get the huge fruit/pepper/bubblegum of the other belgian strains. For perspective, Saison Dupont is fermented at over 90F.

3724 isn't like most belgians.

I've used it extensively, but if you dislike the idea of going into temperature extremes, you'll simply have to be patient and let 3724 do its thing. It is well known to stick at 1.03 when it's not ramped up into the 90s.

Thanks, I won't fear the high temps! Little hard to hold temps that high in Colorado, but I'll make it work. I just didn't want off flavors and it has been working for three weeks. Figured that was plenty of time to chews through those sugars! I'll kick the temps up and be patient. Anyone pitched Brett into the secondary? I want dry and complex in the finished product, but I want the yeast to produce the flavors without being too over the top.

I really like Brett C as a secondary fermenter with the 3724. You'll get some pineapple/tropical notes along with a milder brett funk. (I'm pretty well convinced that this is what Boulevard does for Saison Brett.)

Chad at Crooked Stave says he used four strains in the Wild Wild Brett Rouge that I harvested from. Two strains of Drie, the Orval strain, and Brett C. Should be interesting. I plan to see just how far I can push the 3724, then pitching the Brett to finish it off. Will still split the batch if I can get to at least 1010-1008 with the Saison yeast alone. If it finishes too high, I'll just pitch the Brett into the whole thing.

I missed reading your brett source. Drie + brett C will be a great match for a Dupont-style saison. That should be a really tasty beer.

Here's hoping!

I've never used Brett myself...any suggestions? I plan on letting the starter go for a week or so and I will be picking up new bottling and racking equipment so I can avoid cross contamination. How long do I need to let it ride in the fermenter? I looked back at Yeast and Radical Brewing as well as Zymurgy and BYO articles and didn't come across anything very helpful.

I just let it run until the gravity is stable. Couple months or so. Then bottle and pop one every so often until the brett is at a level that I like.

This is the strangest yeast I have ever worked with, but now I know not to rely exclusively on my previous knowledge and experience, and to check the forums and manufacturers sites for info on different strains. I have consistently read (and had good experience following the advice) that just because Belgian breweries are purported to ferment at high temps doesn't mean its a good idea for us to do it. I have made some great Belgians never letting temps rise above 75 and most of the time keeping them in the high 60's to low 70's. I have ramped the temps into the high 80's and plan to keep climbing to the mid 90's, and the fermentation has picked right back up...craziness! I know this is supposed to be the Saison DuPont strain, but does anyone know any more about the biology or etiology of this yeast? It works slow, likes high temps, forms a krausen layer then seems to do much of its work from the bottom. I have never seen an ale yeast stay active this long and not be dry as hell. This only chewed through half the sugars in three weeks! I'd have to baby any other Belgian strain along to keep it active that long and max out attenuation.

BTW, my Brett starter formed a nice krausen layer and seems to be growing nicely. I can't believe I'm getting this response from the dregs of one bottle, harvested and saved nearly a year ago in a small nalgene bottle. Just swirled up and poured off, storing it under the beer. The yeastie beasties are truly incredible!

I believe the rumours are that 3724 is related to a red wine yeast.

This is now going on a month and a half of active fermentation! I ramped temps into the 90's and held it for a couple of weeks. Seemed to stop so I allowed the temps to drop back into the mid 60's. A week later I noticed bubbles in the airlock again! A sample tasted a little sweet still. I taped a seed starter heat pad (cheap solution to keeping temps up) on and got temps back into the mid 70's. Any idea how long this will keep going?

Pellicle on the Brett portion!

Update. I'm still not very happy with the 3724 portion of thus brew even after a couple of months in the bottle. Just a little...off. Too fruity and some mild off flavors that I cannot isolate but I don't care for. The Brett portion on the other hand is freak in awesome! This is one of the best beers I have ever made. It is dry, mildly tart, and absolutely delicious. So for those of you who have this stall out on you, you might consider pitching Brett instead of trying to ramp temps.