Wit Yeast Discussion

I am about to embark on a Wit-a-thon. I have the ability to do proper temp controlled ferment and aging now, so I'm ready to take on one of the things that has been on my waiting list the longest - my kind of Wit.

Goals:

• Proper Wit visual charcter
• Mild Expression of Clove, Pepper, Fruit
• Avoidance of Banana as much as possible
• No adjunct spices - just yeast and temp control
• Preference (but not required) for dry yeast vs liquid

Based on my palate, examples of this type of Wit are:

• Bell's Winter White Ale
• Hoegaarden

I'd like to open the discussion for anyone to has brewed this type of Wit to talk about your results. Yeast strain and handling will be very important data points, so feel free to get all nerdy with it.

So far, I have done the most reading on Fermentis T-58. It seems that I would be able to achieve my goals with it if I held the ferment around the bottom if it's working range; 58-60F. Possibly even as high as 65F, based on comments. At these low temps, it is said to express pepper quite a bit.

Remember; this guy is not invited to the party!

I brewed this a few months back "SWMBO Slayer - Belgian Blonde". It called for 1 Pkgs Belgian Wit Ale (White Labs #WLP400) Yeast-Wheat, but my HBS only had Wyeast 3944 Belgian Witbier. My cellar temp was 68*. I did not get any pepper, but I must say it was one of my tastiest brews to date and certainly the strongest.

I brewed the witbier from BCS but used WLP410 instead of 400. It turned out very well. Very little "banana" ester and the coriander/orange/chamomile flavors were barely noticeable. That said, I find that your exemplary Hoegarden has over the top banana ester (or at least did the two times I tried it). I used wlp410 intentionally because of its reduced ester production.

What temp did you ferment the wlp410 at?

I've only used WLP400 once, and not in a Wit - it was a friend's Belgian IPA recipe. I thought it sucked frankly, but since it was overbalanced into the hops there was really no way to get a good feel for the yeast character, so I have nothing to say yet about 400 in a Wit.

3944 is totally new to me. It sounds like from your experience you'd recommend it?

It looks like WLP410 is also an option, it claims to be less phenolic and more spicy. The claimed higher residual sweetness scares me though.

I'm really hoping someone will come forward with more dry yeast experience. Both pro brewers I know use dry yeast exclusively, and have more than a handful of award winning beers to show for it. Hard to find good dry yeast info in the homebrew community though.

Isn't that crazy? That's why I called out commercial beers, just saying "banana" can be very different person to person.

The ester I am sensitive to is definitely banana, but I find Hoegaarden to be completely lacking it, whereas I find many microbrew Hefes to be exploding with it.

MichaelBrock said:

I brewed the witbier from BCS but used WLP410 instead of 400. It turned out very well. Very little "banana" ester and the coriander/orange/chamomile flavors were barely noticeable. That said, I find that your exemplary Hoegarden has over the top banana ester (or at least did the two times I tried it). I used wlp410 intentionally because of its reduced ester production.

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If you can get your hands on some allagash white culture their yeast - it makes the best wit I've brewed - stay away from the dried yeasts - even the Blanche yeast - I didn't do much for my last wit.

Lavash bottles with their strain.

It doesn't look like this is a beer I will be able to get my hands on, unfortunately. I can see why you would recommend it though!

shoreman said:

If you can get your hands on some allagash white culture their yeast - it makes the best wit I've brewed - stay away from the dried yeasts - even the Blanche yeast - I didn't do much for my last wit.

Lavash bottles with their strain.

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joshs said:

What temp did you ferment the wlp410 at?

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I followed Jamil's ferementation plan. I started at 68 degrees and after 3 days (at about the 70% done mark) I raised it to 72 degrees to finish. I was brewing for a family reunion and was a bit rushed. I bottled at 2 weeks and it took every bit of that to finish. I brought it to the reunion after 2 weeks in the bottle and it turned out really well. I didn't consider myself a traditional witbier fan (but do like the various bluemoon varieties). The esters in Hoegaarden (and most heffes) actually give me an upset stomach.

Unfortunately 410 is seasonal and my LHBS only carries White Labs yeast. I'd like to do this again but I'm afraid that the alternative yeasts might lead me to a batch I wouldn't enjoy. I was planning on washing the yeast but flocculation was so poor I decided not to bother.

EDIT: I mis-remembered the fermentation temperature. It was 68 degrees, not 60 degrees (that was for my current batch, a Kolsch).

I've used 3944 in two wits now and I definitely recommend running this yeast in the 70s. The first batch fermented about 63-64 and produced a very neutral flavor profile. The second batch started at 68 and I ramped it up to 72/73... really brings out the esters and tartness you expect from Hoegaarden. There wasn't the slightest hint of fusels, so next time I might try to get it up to 74/75.

cscade said:

Isn't that crazy? That's why I called out commercial beers, just saying "banana" can be very different person to person.

The ester I am sensitive to is definitely banana, but I find Hoegaarden to be completely lacking it, whereas I find many microbrew Hefes to be exploding with it.

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Looking at my notes, it is actually the "bubble gum" ester flavor that put me off of Hoegaarden. Although I also have issues with the over the top banana ester it apparently wasn't noteworthy in Hoegaarden, so I take that back.

cscade said:

3944 is totally new to me. It sounds like from your experience you'd recommend it?

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It worked well on the Belgian Blonde, ABV was 6-7%, 5oz of bottle sugar got the bottles ready to explode, this yeast did not want to quit. Next time I will save/wash the cake and do 2-3 batches from the one pack.

I had 3 weeks in primary, 2 in secondary and they have been bottled, 1L bottles, for 2 months. I need to get this to near freezing to have enough time to pour without foaming out of control.

Im using WLP 400 on my belgian wit right now and I'm not too impressed with it. I thought it would ferment my beer out in 2 weeks top, but after 3 weeks my gravity is around 1.019 and slowly moving down. Obviously I have nothing to say about the taste it produces, but as far as attenuation I'm not impressed.

hotpants said:

Im using WLP 400 on my belgian wit right now and I'm not too impressed with it. I thought it would ferment my beer out in 2 weeks top, but after 3 weeks my gravity is around 1.019 and slowly moving down. Obviously I have nothing to say about the taste it produces, but as far as attenuation I'm not impressed.

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I threw a WLP400 repitched slurry (2 months in fridge) into a 1.068 belgian dubbel and it went down to 1.004 in a week. I've also used it exclusively in all of my witbiers.

I find the banana ester is noticeable during fermentation, but not much at all in the finished beer. For wits, I ferment it quite warm, lower 80's, for a week to 10 days, then cold-crash it for 24-48 hours. It doesn't drop very clear, so the crashing is fine.

Usually have great clove notes and everyone really loves my wits.

Do you have any notes from 400 or 410 at lower temps? I'm wondering if it's possible to wipe out the banana altogether. I'm guessing that with 410 you could, but the whole thing may be too neutral at that point and become less interesting.

tre9er said:

I threw a WLP400 repitched slurry (2 months in fridge) into a 1.068 belgian dubbel and it went down to 1.004 in a week. I've also used it exclusively in all of my witbiers.

I find the banana ester is noticeable during fermentation, but not much at all in the finished beer. For wits, I ferment it quite warm, lower 80's, for a week to 10 days, then cold-crash it for 24-48 hours. It doesn't drop very clear, so the crashing is fine.

Usually have great clove notes and everyone really loves my wits.

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It's worth noting that WLP400 and Wyeast 3944 are the same yeast. They are both the Hoegaarden/Celis strain according to MrMalty.com: http://www.mrmalty.com/white-labs.php

I brewed up a batch of wit yesterday and pitched a 1.2L starter of 3944 into it. By last night it was starting to bubble and this morning it was going strong. I'm going to check it here in a few minutes during my lunch break and I anticipate a healthy blowoff. I used the simmer method instead of boiling so I ended up with about 6 gallons instead of the 5.5 that Beersmith calculated.


I like the simmer method for keeping the proteins in suspension, rather than coagulating in hot break and falling out. It worked well on my previous wit to keep the beer cloudy without having to have a bunch of yeast in suspension.

Interesting. Jamil recommends a 90 minute boil for DMS reduction in Wit, would you say your method is still accomplishing that?

Doog_Si_Reeb said:

I like the simmer method for keeping the proteins in suspension, rather than coagulating in hot break and falling out. It worked well on my previous wit to keep the beer cloudy without having to have a bunch of yeast in suspension.

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cscade said:

Do you have any notes from 400 or 410 at lower temps? I'm wondering if it's possible to wipe out the banana altogether. I'm guessing that with 410 you could, but the whole thing may be too neutral at that point and become less interesting.

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I've always fermented it hot. I recall there is another WL yeast (300 or 410?) that creates more clove notes without as much work stressing the yeast as I put it through.

Also FWIW my WLP400 is on about 6th generation and recently attenuated that dubbel down past where I expected it to go. It gave off the bubblegum that belgian strong ales tend to have, I'm guessing exposure to high gravity/alcohol caused this?? Never experienced it in any wits, just the dubbel.

I'm a big fan of 3944 (or 400, whatever yeast company floats your boat), pitching properly sized starters in the high 60's and letting it reach the mid 70's through fermentation. It's never taken more than 2 weeks to ferment out, always finishes around 1.009-1.011, and really doesn't throw any banana esters as far as I can taste.

Not sure why you'd want to brew wits without any spices, IMHO a wit just isn't a wit without some citrus zest and coriander (good coriander, not the vegetable smelling crap some places sell). But to each his own I guess.

phenry said:

I'm a big fan of 3944 (or 400, whatever yeast company floats your boat), pitching properly sized starters in the high 60's and letting it reach the mid 70's through fermentation. It's never taken more than 2 weeks to ferment out, always finishes around 1.009-1.011, and really doesn't throw any banana esters as far as I can taste.

Not sure why you'd want to brew wits without any spices, IMHO a wit just isn't a wit without some citrus zest and coriander (good coriander, not the vegetable smelling crap some places sell). But to each his own I guess.

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Are you getting clove and/or other spice from the yeast at those temps? I thik the OP wants those notes to come from the yeast, not other ingredients. I get huge spice notes from that yeast in higher temp ranges, but have always wondered how it'd perform in lower temps.

phenry said:

Not sure why you'd want to brew wits without any spices, IMHO a wit just isn't a wit without some citrus zest and coriander (good coriander, not the vegetable smelling crap some places sell). But to each his own I guess.

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Like tre9er mentioned, I am looking for those qualities, just from fermentation only. The Bell's Winter White Ale I cited for instance has no adjunct spices, it's all in the ferment. I'm not against spices in any way - especially with the traditional underpinnings - but my journey here is to achieve Wit results without the adjuncts.

I'm going to go through and compile everyone's comments into some theoretical ferment profiles tomorrow, and I'll post them back. Thanks for keeping this an engaging thread guys.

tre9er said:

Are you getting clove and/or other spice from the yeast at those temps? I thik the OP wants those notes to come from the yeast, not other ingredients. I get huge spice notes from that yeast in higher temp ranges, but have always wondered how it'd perform in lower temps.

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I wouldn't say I get HUGE amounts of cloves and spiciness from fermenting in the 70's, but they definitely are noticeable. I like playing around with different spices, but from seeing a lot of the recipes in the database of this forum, I'd say my amounts are extremely restrained compared to most. Part of the reason being I like letting yeast profile shine through. My next with I may do a split ferment, half with my regular treatment, the other half raised up into the 80's.


Might be a good time to try Mosher's separate adjunct mashing technique too. While a good wit does draw quite a bit from the yeast profile, I noticed a huge improvement with mine when I upped the amount of flaked wheat to about 2 lbs for a 5 gallon batch, along with a lb of old fashioned oats.

cscade said:

So far, I have done the most reading on Fermentis T-58. It seems that I would be able to achieve my goals with it if I held the ferment around the bottom if it's working range; 58-60F. Possibly even as high as 65F, based on comments. At these low temps, it is said to express pepper quite a bit.

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I've done two Belgian Wits with T-58, one fermented at 63F (a little pepper evident) and the other at 65F (the citrus notes shined through, but I used fresh orange zest instead of bitter orange peel this time). Neither time did I get any banana.

I also made a Belgian Pale with T-58, fermented at 68F, and probably removed from temperature control a little too soon. I'm drinking it now - pretty fruity/funky, but no banana whatsoever. I like the beer I ended up with, but definitely steer clear of 68F for a wit.

phenry said:

Might be a good time to try Mosher's separate adjunct mashing technique too. While a good wit does draw quite a bit from the yeast profile, I noticed a huge improvement with mine when I upped the amount of flaked wheat to about 2 lbs for a 5 gallon batch, along with a lb of old fashioned oats.

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The closest I got to a Hoegaarden was separate mash with flaked wheat and oats.

I have never heard of this separate mash technique. I was planning to do a single mash with flaked oats and flaked wheat along side my pilsen and munich malts, add in some rice hulls, and then;

• Mash in: 122F
• Rest 15m
• Ramp to 154F over 25m
• Rest 60m
• Ramp to 168F over 20m
• Sparge

Would the separate mash you are referring to yield different results somehow?

I've done 5 Wits this year but tre9er has echoed a lot of my experiences with them in his posts here. Occasionally banana in fermentation but never from bottled wit. I will use WLP400 on all my wits from here on out.

I think making a wit to taste like Hoegaarden is difficult. My two tries both fell short. Stay away from Grains of Paradise - won't matter what yeast you use because this stuff can overpower a beer fast and easy. I also tried S-33 and it was not what I was looking for.

plainbrad said:

I've done 5 Wits this year but tre9er has echoed a lot of my experiences with them in his posts here. Occasionally banana in fermentation but never from bottled wit. I will use WLP400 on all my wits from here on out.

I think making a wit to taste like Hoegaarden is difficult. My two tries both fell short. Stay away from Grains of Paradise - won't matter what yeast you use because this stuff can overpower a beer fast and easy. I also tried S-33 and it was not what I was looking for.

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I agree. I think if you can brew a Hoegaarden clone, do a "Pepsi Challenge" with a seasoned Hoegaarden drinker who won't notice much difference between the two, then you are a pretty damn good homebrewer. Very hard beer to nail down IMO.

cscade said:

I have never heard of this separate mash technique. I was planning to do a single mash with flaked oats and flaked wheat along side my pilsen and munich malts, add in some rice hulls, and then;

• Mash in: 122F
• Rest 15m
• Ramp to 154F over 25m
• Rest 60m
• Ramp to 168F over 20m
• Sparge

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That's almost exactly what I did yesterday except I rested at 122 for 20 min.

I have not had the opportunity to compile everyone's comments yet. However, I do have a brew schedule upcoming.

Since WLP410 is "in season" right now, I'll be doing a split batch in early August (should be the 1st week) of 1/2 400 and 1/2 410. I will post detailed recipe and notes as it happens. The yeast is on the way!

hotpants said:

Im using WLP 400 on my belgian wit right now and I'm not too impressed with it. I thought it would ferment my beer out in 2 weeks top, but after 3 weeks my gravity is around 1.019 and slowly moving down. Obviously I have nothing to say about the taste it produces, but as far as attenuation I'm not impressed.

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Patience...i used 400 for the first time in my wit and it turned out great. Im brewing a double batch tommorow with the yeast i harvested from it.