Thought for the Day - Oil

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homebrewer_99

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OPEC sells oil for $136.00 a barrel.

OPEC nations buy U.S. grain at $7.00 a bushel.


Solution: We sell grain for $136.00 a bushel to foreigners.


Can't buy it? Tough! Eat your oil!

Ought to go well with a nice thick grilled fillet of Camel A$$!!!

:mug::mug::mug::mug:
 
Sing it brotha...

camel_1.jpg
 
I said it awhile back... we produce enough grain in this country to feed the world and yet we are on a push to convert this edible grain into alcohol/fuel. Our energy source, which is our food source, is renewable. Theirs is not. Sounds like a long term game of chicken to me.

As the technology matures, I don't think it's out of the question to imagine that we could someday get a net positive energy supply out of our farmland. It's not even so much about getting a net positive supply as it is about making an efficient transportable energy source. For example, if producing ethanol required a lot of atomic energy, but we had a lot of nuclear plants, then we could have an abundance of electricity as well as a transportable fuel (ethanol). Even if it's not as efficient, it could still be a workable solution. After all, only a small drop of petroleum is used for cars.
 
Why does the western world sell grain at all? Does everyone sleep with a full belly on this side of the globe?



Nope.

But if we gave it away, then we would be communists. Heck, if we just let market forces alone decide prices, it wouldn't be 20 years before every farm was owned by a multinational corporation.
 
I said it awhile back... we produce enough grain in this country to feed the world and yet we are on a push to convert this edible grain into alcohol/fuel. Our energy source, which is our food source, is renewable. Theirs is not. Sounds like a long term game of chicken to me.


You may want to look into how we grow all this grain, Nitrogenated fertilizer is made using oil, more oil is used in this process than is used in our cars every day...


from here, http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/100303_eating_oil.html
yes, I know, they have an agenda, but you can find more on this at your leisure...


The Green Revolution

In the 1950s and 1960s, agriculture underwent a drastic transformation commonly referred to as the Green Revolution. The Green Revolution resulted in the industrialization of agriculture. Part of the advance resulted from new hybrid food plants, leading to more productive food crops. Between 1950 and 1984, as the Green Revolution transformed agriculture around the globe, world grain production increased by 250%.4 That is a tremendous increase in the amount of food energy available for human consumption. This additional energy did not come from an increase in incipient sunlight, nor did it result from introducing agriculture to new vistas of land. The energy for the Green Revolution was provided by fossil fuels in the form of fertilizers (natural gas), pesticides (oil), and hydrocarbon fueled irrigation.

The Green Revolution increased the energy flow to agriculture by an average of 50 times the energy input of traditional agriculture.5 In the most extreme cases, energy consumption by agriculture has increased 100 fold or more.6

In the United States, 400 gallons of oil equivalents are expended annually to feed each American (as of data provided in 1994).7 Agricultural energy consumption is broken down as follows:

· 31% for the manufacture of inorganic fertilizer

· 19% for the operation of field machinery

· 16% for transportation

· 13% for irrigation

· 08% for raising livestock (not including livestock feed)

· 05% for crop drying

· 05% for pesticide production

· 08% miscellaneous8

Energy costs for packaging, refrigeration, transportation to retail outlets, and household cooking are not considered in these figures.

To give the reader an idea of the energy intensiveness of modern agriculture, production of one kilogram of nitrogen for fertilizer requires the energy equivalent of from 1.4 to 1.8 liters of diesel fuel. This is not considering the natural gas feedstock.9 According to The Fertilizer Institute (http://www.tfi.org), in the year from June 30 2001 until June 30 2002 the United States used 12,009,300 short tons of nitrogen fertilizer.10 Using the low figure of 1.4 liters diesel equivalent per kilogram of nitrogen, this equates to the energy content of 15.3 billion liters of diesel fuel, or 96.2 million barrels.

Of course, this is only a rough comparison to aid comprehension of the energy requirements for modern agriculture.

In a very real sense, we are literally eating fossil fuels. However, due to the laws of thermodynamics, there is not a direct correspondence between energy inflow and outflow in agriculture. Along the way, there is a marked energy loss. Between 1945 and 1994, energy input to agriculture increased 4-fold while crop yields only increased 3-fold.11 Since then, energy input has continued to increase without a corresponding increase in crop yield. We have reached the point of marginal returns. Yet, due to soil degradation, increased demands of pest management and increasing energy costs for irrigation (all of which is examined below), modern agriculture must continue increasing its energy expenditures simply to maintain current crop yields. The Green Revolution is becoming bankrupt.
 
You may want to look into how we grow all this grain, Nitrogenated fertilizer is made using oil, more oil is used in this process than is used in our cars every day...

Not to mention the fact that we use the oil-based fertilizers to grow the grains to make ethanol-blended fuels to run the drilling rigs to get the oil to make the oil-based fertilizers to... aw crap...


:tank:
 
Sounds to me like over half of that petroleum use could be replaced by electricity, or more electricity-intensive (as opposed to petroleum-intensive) solutions. Which tells me in many cases we are using petroleum, not because it is the only option, but because it is presently the cheapest.
 
You know if the US were to put grain and food into full production they would destroy the global economy by making food so cheap and accessable...

Wait I still dont under stand that. Other people should starve because we need higher food cost?
 
I still think that our ultimate solution is going to be in solar power, in one form or another. Almost every living thing on this Earth requires sunlight to survive, and the sun itself is a clean source of renewable energy. The main problems to be solved with current solar technology are:

1. price
2. longevity
3. productivity (wattage produced)
4. panel materials; they use oil in their production, and produce many harmful byproducts.

I wish I were able to afford the $30-40k it would take to cover my roof in solar panels. However, I'm going to sell my house in the next 10 years, so I'd likely never see that investment pay off.
 
You know if the US were to put grain and food into full production they would destroy the global economy by making food so cheap and accessable...

Wait I still dont under stand that. Other people should starve because we need higher food cost?

No. Other people starve because capitalism can't justify the expenditures it would take to put food into "full production" for minimal or no profit.

Or, to look at it another way- Other people starve because third world dictators and war lords won't let grain be imported at reasonable cost without demanding a piece of the action. Imagine how much control a dictator would lose if his enemies were as well-fed as he was.
 
OPEC sells oil for $136.00 a barrel.

OPEC nations buy U.S. grain at $7.00 a bushel.


Solution: We sell grain for $136.00 a bushel to foreigners.


Can't buy it? Tough! Eat your oil!

Ought to go well with a nice thick grilled fillet of Camel A$$!!!


Heck yeah, we could add a $129 tax for foreign countries to buy it. Then we could use that money to A. Find better fuel alternatives and B. Subsidize the cost of gasoline here. What a great idea!! :ban:

I'm gonna write my senator for real.
 
the oil producing nations indirectly control the price of oil by regulating the supply. so if we want grain to go to $130 a bushel, we have to cut production by about 95%, and the market would do the rest.

we'd have to make beer out of something else.
 
the oil producing nations indirectly control the price of oil by regulating the supply. so if we want grain to go to $130 a bushel, we have to cut production by about 95%, and the market would do the rest.

we'd have to make beer out of something else.

Not if we only tax it up that much to the other countries. ;)
 
One good thing about high oil prices? It's becoming more expensive to do manufacturing offshore and ship it to the US due to fuel costs than to just make it in the US. It may get the US back into the manufacturing game, bring more jobs home, and strengthen the dollar.
 
Wanted to buy some 12-12-12 fertilizer, and they were out.
Out of triple 16, too.
They did have trip 19, but only a little.

When I asked, they said that fert had gone up 3 times this year and they just weren't going to buy any more-since the price is out of control.

High grain prices would KILL homebrewing.
Also, remember we pay large corporation farms to NOT grow, to keep the price UP.

A level playing field has NEVER existed in modern times.
 
You know if the US were to put grain and food into full production they would destroy the global economy by making food so cheap and accessable...

Wait I still dont under stand that. Other people should starve because we need higher food cost?

What is this "full production" everyone is talking about? The government programs that paid for fallow land ended a while ago as stock piles started dropping and prices started stabilizing on their own. The only fallow land in agriculture is the land either the farmer deems unprofitable to farm or is owned by someone not currently farming it. Given todays prices for most agricultural goods that isn't much.

And if was possible to produce enough food to make it even cheaper than it is what is the motivation for the farmers to continue producing food when it costs them more to raise the crop than they can sell it for. Even the most efficient farms make a very poor return on invested capital when compared to other industries. The big increases in crop prices has been mostly offset by big increases in fuel and fertilizer which means that while farmers are doing better than they have in the recent past they are not raking in the dough either.

If the US were to tax food exports like suggested then the prices in the US would plummet as there would not be a big enough market for the product. This would force many farmers out of business and our income from farm exports would quickly drop as we no longer exported. World wide prices would increase resulting in a big increase in starvation in poor countries.

There are very few people in the US who do not get sufficient calories. There are people but it is a much smaller portion of the population than it is of the world as a whole.

The problem with trying to feed the poor in countries controlled by dictators or other repressive governments is that those governments control the distribution infrastructure. The only effective way to bypass those corrupt governments would be to use a military force with enough power to prevent the government from interfering. This ofcourse is called invasion and is generally frown upon except in extreme circumstances, and even then much of the world will disagree.

There are NO easy solutions. I'm not saying there may not be better solutions but it is never as easy as it may seem when you don't know all the information.

Craig



Sorry time to get back to brewing and drinking. :tank:
 
There are very few people in the US who do not get sufficient calories.

If I may quote a former co-worker. "When I was a child in India, I remember watching a US TV program and thinking, I want to live in a country where the poor people are FAT."
 
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