New stout faucet all foam :(

My new taprite stout faucet is pouring out all foam. All foam. I mean 100% of the glass is foam. And the second. And third...

Beer was carbed to 1.8 volumes co2, line is 8.5 ft of 3/16 tubing. Temperature is 39F. Beer gas tank regulator is at 30 psi.

What to do?


Thanks!!

It's probably overcarbed. The difference between perfect and a full glass of foam is a very fine line. You should always just set at serving pressure and leave it. With the low volumes needed on nitro, it's really easy to go over and it's a pain getting it back down.

I carbed it on a co2 tank, and when pouring the first 3/4 of the keg with co2 using a picnic tap (waiting for that stout tap seemed like forever!) it was carbed correctly

Is 30 psi of 75% nitrogen 25% co2 too high?

CanAm said:

I carbed it on a co2 tank, and when pouring the first 3/4 of the keg with co2 using a picnic tap (waiting for that stout tap seemed like forever!) it was carbed correctly



Is 30 psi of 75% nitrogen 25% co2 too high?

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Almost definitely over carbonated. What's carbonated for regular serving is way over carbonated for serving on a stout faucet. I think you're probably shooting for more like ~1.2 vol of CO2

Thanks guys! Sounds like over carbed. Just shut off the beer gas and purged the keg. Any thoughts on a range of purge repeats?

CanAm said:

Thanks guys! Sounds like over carbed. Just shut off the beer gas and purged the keg. Any thoughts on a range of purge repeats?

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It is definitely overcarbed. I have found that when I put the beer in a keg and give it a shot of CO2 at 30 lbs to seal the lid, that is often enough to carb it very low and it work well on my system. I set mine to 35 psi and get nice pours.

You can disconnect the keg and keep pulling the pressure relief valve every time you walk by. It may take quite a few times to relase the excess pressure.

With only 25% CO2 you need a lot more than 30psi to keep equilibrium, so either up the pressure, drop the carbonation, or both. And if you have the option when you refill your beergas tank, go with a higher CO2 blend.

For future reference these are really handy for figuring out beergas pressures/volumes:

http://mcdantim.mobi/

JuanMoore said:

[...]For future reference these are really handy for figuring out beergas pressures/volumes:

http://mcdantim.mobi/

Click to expand...

Excellent - been thinking that would be handy indeed.

Cheers!

25/75 blend is common, that's what Guinness gas blend is. 30-35 psi is perfect for the temps we typically serve at. You want very low carbonation on a nitro tap, less than 1.2 volumes is good, anything more and you get only foam.

masonsjax said:

25/75 blend is common, that's what Guinness gas blend is.

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It's common because that's what the most common nitro beer (Guinness) uses for commercial serving, and it's what's appropriate for the 1.2 vol and very cold serving temps that are used for it.

masonsjax said:

30-35 psi is perfect for the temps we typically serve at. You want very low carbonation on a nitro tap, less than 1.2 volumes is good, anything more and you get only foam.

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Most other nitro beers are served successfully at higher carb levels (1.6-1.8 vol being common). It simply requires a higher serving pressure, higher percentage of CO2 in the gas blend, or a combination of both. Most nitro faucets work best in the 30-45 psi range regardless of carbonation level and temp, so a higher percentage of CO2 is often required to get a decent pour for higher carb levels (unless the lines are really long). I've set up several nitro systems designed for 1.8 vol that work flawlessly. Most gas places here carry multiple beer gas blends, with 30/70 also being relatively common. Many bars with multiple nitro faucets use gas blenders rather than pre-blended gas so that they can dial in the precise blend required based on carb level and line length.

If you ever decide to try something other than <1.2 vol, just use the calculators I linked above to figure out what blend and pressure you need. Just remember that it will likely only work with faucet pressures in the 30-45 psi range.

If you say so. I've played with my setup a lot over the years and found it to be super easy to get from a perfect pour to way overcarbed and not so easy to get back under that threshold. I found perfection by starting low and dialing up psi and checking every few days until the pour was perfectly cascading with a creamy head. Now I set it and forget it with excellent pours after a couple of weeks. For me that's well below 1.2 vols.

Sounds like you do this professionally though, so I'll defer to your expertise.

<ZOMBIE THREAD>

I'm sorry, but this thread has information that I'm struggling to wrap my head around. I have a porter that I had been serving through a standard faucet at about 2.25 volumes on 100% CO2 at 38f. I moved to 70/30 beer gas at 30psi, and added a stout faucet, and now I need to resolve the foam.

My first pint of the day will pour well for the first 3oz (the beer in the line) after this I get 100% foam. My assumption is that the CO2 is dropping out of the beer in the line but the liquid in the keg is still over-carbed for the system balance.

The piece of this thread that is confusing to me is the concept of increasing the beer gas pressure to reduce the foaming. From the notes above it sounds like simply increasing my beer-gas pressure to 65psi should give me an acceptable pour while maintaining 2.25volumes in the beer. It seems completely backwards that forcing the beer out at higher pressure would reduce foaming.

My other option is to de-carb the beer, which I am not opposed to, but I would rather avoid.

I use 25/75 at 42F (it's in will all my other beers) and at 25 psi with no issues.

2.25 volumes is a bit high for nitro dispensing through a stout faucet.
I try to hit closer to 1.25 volumes using straight CO2 (which doesn't take much as the post-fermentation volume is likely around .75) then dispense at 35 psi using 70/30 beer gas...

Cheers!

BeardedBrews said:

The piece of this thread that is confusing to me is the concept of increasing the beer gas pressure to reduce the foaming. From the notes above it sounds like simply increasing my beer-gas pressure to 65psi should give me an acceptable pour while maintaining 2.25volumes in the beer. It seems completely backwards that forcing the beer out at higher pressure would reduce foaming.

My other option is to de-carb the beer, which I am not opposed to, but I would rather avoid.

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Where in the thread are finding advice to increase the pressure to 65psi? That's not a good idea. You need to decarb your beer and keep the pressure under 40psi at most. I would take it off the gas and purge the lid every hour or two every day until it stops hissing. Then set your beergas for 30psi and see how it pours. Leave it there for a week or two and see how the pour evolves. If it's not cascading perfectly at that point, adjust up, if it's still foamy, adjust down. You'll find the sweet spot for your rig, usually in the 30-40psi range, it just may take some patience and you may need to drink a bunch of beer. Work work work

JuanMoore said:

With only 25% CO2 you need a lot more than 30psi to keep equilibrium, so either up the pressure, drop the carbonation, or both. And if you have the option when you refill your beergas tank, go with a higher CO2 blend.

For future reference these are really handy for figuring out beergas pressures/volumes:

http://mcdantim.mobi/

Click to expand...

masonsjax said:

Where in the thread are finding advice to increase the pressure to 65psi?

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The sad truth is that my "testing" has involved drinking the majority of this keg, a few more pints and this might be a moot point.

It sounds like there are two sides of this. First, to maintain the 2 volumes of CO2 would require a very high line pressure on 70/30 gas. I'm not surprised to hear this. Second, the stout faucet may not function well using a line pressure this high. This was expected too, but I second guessed myself when I saw the "perfect pour" calculator.

I will write this keg off as an experiment and plan to barely carbonate the next stout to see if that helps the foam levels.

BeardedBrews said:

The sad truth is that my "testing" has involved drinking the majority of this keg, a few more pints and this might be a moot point.

It sounds like there are two sides of this. First, to maintain the 2 volumes of CO2 would require a very high line pressure on 70/30 gas. I'm not surprised to hear this. Second, the stout faucet may not function well using a line pressure this high. This was expected too, but I second guessed myself when I saw the "perfect pour" calculator.

I will write this keg off as an experiment and plan to barely carbonate the next stout to see if that helps the foam levels.

Click to expand...

If you had your beer carbed at 2.5 volumes first, and then connected it to beer gas, it is effectively "overcarbed". For Nitro serving, you only need about 1, maybe 1.5 volumes of CO2. Very small amount.

Your beer precipitates a full head of CO2, PLUS all the nitrogen, which is why you end up with so much foam.

You would need to de-gas CO2 (it's not that complicated and can be done fairly quickly - not sure why everyone thinks de-gassing CO2 takes forever - just disconnect the gas and release extra pressure every hour or so - OR, connect CO2 to the "beer out" line and agitate the hell out of the beer - while releasing the pressure). You don't need to degas completely, just lower carbonation to ~1-1.5 volumes.

Then you gas with beer gas, use 20-30 psi. I am not sure your line length matters that much for nitro stouts since you have constriction plate which will provide MOST of the resistance to the flow anyways. But if it's still foaming too much, I would lower pressure or up the length/resistance of the line.

BeardedBrews said:

My other option is to de-carb the beer, which I am not opposed to, but I would rather avoid.

Click to expand...

Based on what you've told us, that's really your only option. It's somewhat dependent on the faucet model, but even the more forgiving ones will cause foaming issues with carb levels over ~2.0 vol. Many of them don't handle anything greater than 1.8 vol well.

day_trippr said:

2.25 volumes is a bit high for nitro dispensing through a stout faucet.
I try to hit closer to 1.25 volumes using straight CO2 (which doesn't take much as the post-fermentation volume is likely around .75) then dispense at 35 psi using 70/30 beer gas...

Cheers!

Click to expand...

Yep.

masonsjax said:

Where in the thread are finding advice to increase the pressure to 65psi? That's not a good idea. You need to decarb your beer and keep the pressure under 40psi at most. I would take it off the gas and purge the lid every hour or two every day until it stops hissing. Then set your beergas for 30psi and see how it pours. Leave it there for a week or two and see how the pour evolves. If it's not cascading perfectly at that point, adjust up, if it's still foamy, adjust down. You'll find the sweet spot for your rig, usually in the 30-40psi range, it just may take some patience and you may need to drink a bunch of beer. Work work work

Click to expand...

Yep.

BeardedBrews said:

It sounds like there are two sides of this. First, to maintain the 2 volumes of CO2 would require a very high line pressure on 70/30 gas. I'm not surprised to hear this. Second, the stout faucet may not function well using a line pressure this high. This was expected too, but I second guessed myself when I saw the "perfect pour" calculator.

Click to expand...

I think you're misunderstanding the purpose of the calculator. All it does is calculate the equilibrium pressure for you. It's up to the user to determine if that pressure is within an acceptable range, or if you need to change some other variables.

Follow these simple rules and you should be able to get a decent pour without issue.
1. Carb level between 0.8 and 1.8 vol
2. Serving pressure between 25 and 40 psi
3. Serving temp <42°F
4. Combination of gas blend and the above variables to result in an equilibrium pressure in the general ballpark of your serving pressure (unlike straight CO2 serving, there's a fair amount of flexibility on matching equilibrium and serving pressure with nitro)

Anyone ever tried switching a CO2 carbed keg to nitro? Or does the keg have to be carbed using beer gas?

I always carbonate my stouts (very little, but still...) with straight CO2 before putting them on beer gas to dispense.
The beer gas ratio and pressure combine to keep that same CO2 content while providing the "oomph" to drive a stout faucet...

Cheers!

day_trippr said:

I always carbonate my stouts (very little, but still...) with straight CO2 before putting them on beer gas to dispense.

The beer gas ratio and pressure combine to keep that same CO2 content while providing the "oomph" to drive a stout faucet...



Cheers!

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So switching shouldn't be an issue?

Not if you have your ducks in a row.

I mean, you can easily over-carb a stout destined for a nitro dispense.
Happens all the time around HBT
But if you avoid that, and your dispense pressure and gas mixture are correct, the switch-over is virtually transparent...

Cheers!

My stout pours fine. I was thinking about switching an ESB over and seeing what happens.

Yeastieboy said:

So switching shouldn't be an issue?

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switching should never be an issue as long you carb to the right amount to begin with. If your beer gas is at 20 psi, and you have 75% Nitrogen, and 25% CO2, this means you are effectively applying 5 psi of CO2.
If previously to that you apply 12 psi of CO2, you are effectively overcarbing your beer.

Nitro beers should only have 1-1.5 volumes of CO2.

Got it. Thanks.

55x11 said:

switching should never be an issue as long you carb to the right amount to begin with. If your beer gas is at 20 psi, and you have 75% Nitrogen, and 25% CO2, this means you are effectively applying 5 psi of CO2.
If previously to that you apply 12 psi of CO2, you are effectively overcarbing your beer.

Nitro beers should only have 1-1.5 volumes of CO2.

Click to expand...

You need to convert gauge pressure to absolute pressure before taking the ratio. 20 psi gauge is 20 psi + 14.7 psi = 34.7 psi absolute. That makes the CO2 partial pressure 34.7 psi * 0.25 = 8.7 psi absolute or 8.7 psi - 14.7 psi = -6 psi gauge.

Now the carbonation charts don't cover negative gauge pressures, but the calculators do. -6 psi gauge @ 40&#730;F corresponds to 0.81 volumes. At 50&#730;F it corresponds to 0.67 volumes.

To get 1 volume @ 50&#730;F with 25/75 beer gas, you need a serving pressure of 37.1 psi, and at 40&#730;F you need 28.4 psi.

Brew on

doug293cz said:

You need to convert gauge pressure to absolute pressure before taking the ratio. 20 psi gauge is 20 psi + 14.7 psi = 34.7 psi absolute. That makes the CO2 partial pressure 34.7 psi * 0.25 = 8.7 psi absolute or 8.7 psi - 14.7 psi = -6 psi gauge.

Now the carbonation charts don't cover negative gauge pressures, but the calculators do. -6 psi gauge @ 40&#730;F corresponds to 0.81 volumes. At 50&#730;F it corresponds to 0.67 volumes.

To get 1 volume @ 50&#730;F with 25/75 beer gas, you need a serving pressure of 37.1 psi, and at 40&#730;F you need 28.4 psi.

Brew on

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doug293cz:
You are correct, thanks! of course - I must be having a brain fart, as you and I have been through this before. Add atmospheric pressure for the ratio, duh! (face palm!)

I was just trying to point out that one has to apply a lot less CO2 than usual for nitro beers, and then when you apply beer gas, make sure it's similar.

There are calculators out there, but I like your number of "at 40&#730;F you need 28.4 psi." - that's about what I use for my setup.