First and possibly second beer - soapy/ harsh/ bitter aftertaste

i've brewed two beers, the first a basic saison (recipe from LHBS, designated using "the hop of the month"), the second an extra pale ale (cloned recipe from northern brewer).

recipes used
saison http://hopville.com/recipe/1259140/saison-recipes/basic-saison
xpa http://hopville.com/recipe/1246009/american-pale-ale-recipes/extrapa

methods/details

saison
the saison bottles have been carbonating for 2.5 weeks @ 70 degrees. i hit the targeted og and fg, bottling after 2 weeks in primary. i steeped the grains between 160-170 degrees for 20 minutes, and squeezed the muslin bag with my hands some once i was done. the bag was relatively hot so i couldn't squeeze for too long or with too much pressure. no scorching of the lme during additions, made sure to remove pot from heat and stirred like crazy. achieved boil for the prescribed time, but barely on my electric stove. the boil wasn't strong/vigorous, i couldn't have achieved a boil over even if i tried. boiled without the lid.

i used 5oz, by VOLUME, of priming sugar for bottling. i now understand this wasn't totally correct, but doesn't seem terribly far off. it probably took me 30-40 minutes to cool down the wort, i didn't have enough ice on hand. topped up to 5 gallons with straight tap water. i had preboiled tap water but way underestimated the time it would take to cool, sort of thought it would cool on its own by time it was to be used. it was way too hot when it came time to top up so i scrapped it and went straight to the tap.

local water report: http://hopsandberries.com/faq/2010 Water Quality Annual Summary KE08Feb11.pdf

i imagine my water would be similar to the hospital. i pitched the yeast in the low 60s, no starter, smack pack was inflated. ultimately fermented at 68-70 degrees. i didn't move the beer during fermentation and siphoning went smoothly, with i believe minimal aeration. i soaked my bottles in a bathtub with hot water and multiple scoops of oxyclean free for 6-8 hours, in advance, then rinsed twice and put away. on the day of bottling i put them in the dishwasher, no dish soap, but yes there was some sort of jet dry-like rinse agent, and ran on the sanitize setting. just prior to filling soaked each bottle in starsan, then poured out and didn't rinse. all my equipment was new so i rinsed prior to use but didn't clean. used starsan on all equipment prior to use.

i tasted my gravity samples along the way and a bottle at the end of weeks 1 and 2. all smelled decent and tasted ok, if a little green and flat. i drank 2 bottles tonight after putting them in the freezer then fridge for 1-2 hours total. poured into glass, leaving 1/2 inch of sediment in bottom. if poured hard will foam all the way to the top. otherwise, small head if poured carefully.

xpa
largely similar in terms of process, but was able cool down the wort in about 20 minutes with the use of a bunch of ice. pitched in the low 60s, fermented low-mid 60s. hit close to OG and am very close to fg.

the problem: the smell and initial taste are great. after a few seconds, or if you sort of swish it around your mouth, there is this sort of harsh/soapy/bitter aftertaste. it is very noticeable to me now, but nothing i picked up on previously. it really sticks to your taste buds, almost tingly, affecting future tastes of food/drink. that's the best way to describe it. i immediately thought of dish soap, hoping my glass wasn't rinsed well or something. rinsed glass between beers but same result.

additionally, my second beer, the xpa, is working its way through fermentation. presently at 1.5 weeks in primary and near or at fg. i've started taking gravity samples, hoping to dry hop it soon for a bit then cold crash. samples have good smell and initial taste, but there is somewhat of a similar bite/aftertaste, although not nearly as pronounced. i was slightly disappointed but initially chalked it up to being green/bitter/ a little harsh/ whatever, but now i'm worried that i've done something procedurally wrong which is spanning multiple brews.

i did some searching at it seems a soapy aftertaste could be a result of high fermenting temps (doesn't seem to be the case here, especially not with 3711), poor rinsing of cleaning products (doesn't seem to the be case but a rinse agent was in the dishwasher), squeezing the steeped grains (i did do this some), steeping too hot (looks like i'm at the upper edge for sure), and/or leaving in primary too long (it couldn't be that after only two weeks).

maybe it's not that though. i just punched the saison recipe into hopville and see that the IBUs are sky high. the printed recipe calls for IBUs of about 25-28, but like i said the recipe says to use 1.25oz of the hop of the month, which apparently was summit. i didn't know enough at the time to recognize that this, the huge AAs in summit, could be a problem.

thoughts? if i'm doing something wrong i want to change it for future brews.

Curious to see what the veterens have to say... By the way, are you in Fort Collins?

It's still 'green'?

My first few brews I sampled too early. They were stouts that at 3 weeks in the bottle, I cracked and started drinking. They were okay at best. Maybe a "soapy" aftertastse if you want to call it that. I tried them after another month and they were fantastic.

wherestheyeast said:

Curious to see what the veterens have to say... By the way, are you in Fort Collins?

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loveland, work in foco and am a csu alum. i figured there would be some locals here.

fishsniffer said:

It's still 'green'?

My first few brews I sampled too early. They were stouts that at 3 weeks in the bottle, I cracked and started drinking. They were okay at best. Maybe a "soapy" aftertastse if you want to call it that. I tried them after another month and they were fantastic.

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possibly. i'm not experienced enough to know what green beer really tastes like. the funny things is it smells good and initially tastes good, then it falls apart. it has like a chemical sort of aftertaste (I didn't use any bleach anywhere along the way).

I kind of have a very similar situation with a Hefeweissen. 3 weeks in bottles and also a harsh almost solvent aftertaste. If you drink it quick it isn't very noticeable but if you hold it in your mouth for a moment it starts to tingle your tongue and you definitely taste the harsh alcohol/solvent like flavor (a little sour).... It's drinkable and not "bad" but still it is an imperfection to me. I've done a bunch of reading and have come to the conclusion that it is still just "green".

My brother loved it... Said it reminded him of the Sam. Adams Imperial White. I'll let you know in another couple weeks if it mellows out. (I have hopes that it will - I'm impatient)

Under pitching or fermentations that start off sluggish (weak yeast) can cause phenol flavors. How long did you let it ferment?

Jrod said:

Under pitching or fermentations that start off sluggish (weak yeast) can cause phenol flavors. How long did you let it ferment?

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the beer that is in bottles fermented in the primary bucket for 15 days. prior to bottling i had reached the expected fg and was took stable fg readings over multiple days. it took approximately 18-24 hours for me to see visible signs of fermentation (air lock bubbling). under pitching certainly could have (or did) happen since i didn't know enough to use a starter.

I tend to let the beer sit an extra week or so after the gravity seems to have bottomed out. I think it allows the remaining yeast to clean up the beer and remove undesirable by products. Patience is really a virtue when it comes to yeast. Give the beer a few weeks in the bottle and see how it changes. Just try to make positive improvements each time you brew. Starters, Full Boils, and plenty of time for the yeast to do their thing are the ones that made the largest improvement in my brewing at the beginning.

Some people percieve certain hop varietals as "soapy". I'm one of those people unfortuantely, but it is extremely limited for me. In particular, Dale's Pale Ale tastes like shampoo to me. Maybe you have the same issue with certain hops?

Jrod said:

I tend to let the beer sit an extra week or so after the gravity seems to have bottomed out. I think it allows the remaining yeast to clean up the beer and remove undesirable by products. Patience is really a virtue when it comes to yeast. Give the beer a few weeks in the bottle and see how it changes. Just try to make positive improvements each time you brew. Starters, Full Boils, and plenty of time for the yeast to do their thing are the ones that made the largest improvement in my brewing at the beginning.

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i can see how all of that would be beneficial for making even better beer. in this case, it did sit for about 5 days after reaching fg. not an eternity, i know, but i didn't bottle it the day it hit fg.

Airborneguy said:

Some people percieve certain hop varietals as "soapy". I'm one of those people unfortuantely, but it is extremely limited for me. In particular, Dale's Pale Ale tastes like shampoo to me. Maybe you have the same issue with certain hops?

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i don't think so, but who knows. i've never encountered this before, and i've had a beer with summit hops that i really enjoyed (gubna).

Airborneguy said:

Some people percieve certain hop varietals as "soapy". I'm one of those people unfortuantely, but it is extremely limited for me. In particular, Dale's Pale Ale tastes like shampoo to me. Maybe you have the same issue with certain hops?

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HA! Me too. Maybe that's why I don't care fore Dale's Pale that much.

I'd really blame this problem on green beer / under-pitching of yeast. Those smack packs only contain about 50 billion cells, so you'd want to use at least 2 if not 3 or 4 for most brews.

Give it some time in the bottles. Even the worst of the first few beers I made eventually smoothed out. Yeast are amazing creatures, and they go a long way towards cleaning up mistakes if given enough time.

It probably should have sat in the primary fermenter for a while longer to give the yeast time to clean up, but I understand your impatience. I just want to drink my own beer right away too!

assuming it's just green and needs more time, should this time be spent in or out of the fridge?

out of the fridge.
the yeast can't clean up when they're cold and dormant.


Pitch more, keep temps in line, don't squeeze the grain bag, 3-4 weeks in primary.
Try different hops - (Dales is EXCELLENT beer, sorry some folks have the shampoo experience!)

good luck! don't give up!

fishsniffer said:

It's still 'green'?

My first few brews I sampled too early. They were stouts that at 3 weeks in the bottle, I cracked and started drinking. They were okay at best. Maybe a "soapy" aftertastse if you want to call it that. I tried them after another month and they were fantastic.

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+1

I've got two hefe's right now that have mellowed substantially over the last 14 days. I started drinking them immediately after the compulsory 3 weeks in bottles and my wife and I both picked up a bleachy or soapy aroma. I left them in bottles at fermentation temps for two more weeks.

Bleachy aroma and taste have all but disappeared.

The only thing that goes my bottles is a Star-San rinse so I thought maybe the sanitizer hadn't fully broken down.

Either way, give it time..

Its still green, let it sit for a bit. I would at least filter or get filtered water reguardless of what the report says. I had the same issue with the soapy harsh flavor on some of my early extract kits. Switch to AG and use filtered water. The cost for all grain is less than $50 most of the time and the beers will be night and day better.

Squeezing the grain bag is not recommended, it can leach out tannins that will effect flavor. Thats not causing the harsh/soapy flavor but its not good either.

I agree with Airborneguy. What were your bittering hops? Some hops have higher levels of beta acids, and these can make the bitterness appear "harsher", or so claims my LHS owner.

In addition to what all has been said (pitch more yeast!)--I would skip the "bottles in the dishwasher" step with jet dry. If the bottles are clean (visually examine each/ use a bottle brush & re-soak if not) then star san is enough.

thanks for the info everyone. i'll let them sit longer and hope for the best.

Its been awhile, but did the beer ever smooth out? I'm having the same soapy issue with my IPA. The guys at Hops and Berries in FOCO pointed to our soft water profile & that I dry hopped for too long. Suggested I use gypsum and max dry hop at 3 days.

How'd yours do?

Yes, it did go away. It's still a little too bitter (because of the recipe/ingredients), but the tongue tingling aftertaste is definitely gone. It's certainly a drinkable beer at this point. Amazing how things can change.

What is the impact of soft water? I dry hopped my second beer for 7 days... it's been in bottles for 1.5 weeks. Guess we will see how that one turns out. I'll be heading over to H&B tomorrow to grab ingredients for my next brew.

Another thing to try - try drinking your beer a bit warmer. I've noticed that my beers taste better when not chilled too much. I find standard fridge temp is too cold. I find with some of my beers this makes the bitterness seem a bit harsher and the beer tastes a lot smoother when not so chilled.

wowbeeryum said:

Yes, it did go away. It's still a little too bitter (because of the recipe/ingredients), but the tongue tingling aftertaste is definitely gone. It's certainly a drinkable beer at this point. Amazing how things can change.

What is the impact of soft water? I dry hopped my second beer for 7 days... it's been in bottles for 1.5 weeks. Guess we will see how that one turns out. I'll be heading over to H&B tomorrow to grab ingredients for my next brew.

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That's good to hear! My IPA, after about 5 weeks, is still pretty soapy. I'm not sure what the issue is with water. I was just happy to know what happened!

Are you gonna be at H&B South grand opening this weekend? I see they are having basic extract & all-grain tutorials.

aidan said:

Another thing to try - try drinking your beer a bit warmer. I've noticed that my beers taste better when not chilled too much. I find standard fridge temp is too cold. I find with some of my beers this makes the bitterness seem a bit harsher and the beer tastes a lot smoother when not so chilled.

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yeah, i've noticed the flavor is more full when warm. good tip.

wherestheyeast said:

That's good to hear! My IPA, after about 5 weeks, is still pretty soapy. I'm not sure what the issue is with water. I was just happy to know what happened!

Are you gonna be at H&B South grand opening this weekend? I see they are having basic extract & all-grain tutorials.

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that's unfortunate, sounds like i got luckier in that regard. yes, i'm gonna check out the new location tomorrow afternoon. i work right down the street from there so i'll stop in on my way home from work.

Airborneguy said:

Some people percieve certain hop varietals as "soapy". I'm one of those people unfortuantely, but it is extremely limited for me. In particular, Dale's Pale Ale tastes like shampoo to me. Maybe you have the same issue with certain hops?

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Funny, I just cloned a dales (extract). Both samples were a bit harsh. I feel this one is a brew I'll have to sit on for a while. My first two AG beers were harsh/soapy (dogfish head indian brown and racer 5 IPA), but mellowed with time. I had a buddy actually tell me they were soapy. Also, if I poured them, and let them sit for 1/2 hour or so, the soapy taste went away.

I will say, that this dale's clone fermented REALLY slowly. I used a 1L starter, no stir plate. By slow, I mean the airlock bubbled for like 3 weeks. I only take gravity readings when I transfer, so I don't know when FG was reached.