Making vinegar from beer

Curtis2010 said:

Then there is likely acetobacteria in there. Draw some sediment and vinegar up from the bottom and give it a try on some beer to make malt vinegar.

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I don't have access to the barrel currently. I picked up a small bottle my dad pulled off. It's clear with no sediment. Going to give it a go anyway and will report back.

If you have access to an apple tree or a fruiting crabapple tree, I'm pretty sure the brown rot that develops on a few of the apple -- and a lot of the drops -- is acetobacter. (I know this is a month too late for most people) You can smell the acetic acid in an apple with brown rot. Cut one up and use it to establish a "mother".

I've also read that acetobacter is one of the bugs in Chinese yeast balls, available in many Asian grocery stores. Not sure if that's true or not.

Acetobacter is everywhere. If you expose your beer, wine or mead to the air, you will make vinegar.

shelly_belly said:

Acetobacter is everywhere. If you expose your beer, wine or mead to the air, you will make vinegar.

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True, but of course exposing it to other stuff too.

I just finished reading "Wild Fermemtation". The author does all natural/open ferms of all sorts stuff.

After seeing this thread yesterday, I found a bottle of Bragg's at the grocery store and started two small batches last night. I poured two bottles of northern English mild and two bottles of special bitter into separate one quart bottles and added two tablespoons of the apple cider vinegar to each. They're sitting in the cabinet over my refrigerator, covered with muslin hop socks. Since I'm the only one in the house that can reach that high, they should sit undisturbed in the dark for a bit...until of course I get impatient and bother them myself.

I did something similar. Added a purchased culture to some Guiness in a glass jar. Covered and left to sit for a bit over a month till we return.

Be interesting to see what I have in a couple of weeks.

vinegar is something that requires patience........ cover and forget for 4 or 5 months. There what's called the "generator process" that's fairly simple and involves using a container with a perforated bottom filled with a non-compacting material such as wood shavings. The liquid is circulated from the bottom and sprinkled over the non compacting material, and air circulates up from the bottom as the liquid trickles downward. This system can produce vinegar in 5-7 days, and would be quite easy to build. My inclination would be to use toasted oak planer shavings, a fountain pump, and a small blower with a HEPA filter for air supply, and perhaps cycle the air. I'm envisioning a small charred oak barrel set on end with a perforated false bottom. A port into the side of the barrel for air, a drain to return liquid to the tank below..... a container with a port to feed the pump... perhaps an ordinary stainless steel brew kettle. A slowly rotating sparging arm in the top of the barrel...... etc. The process would be continuous, pulling a percentage of the vinegar out when the PH reached the desired level, and adding more beer....... or whatever. Wood shavings might be replaced periodically.


H.W.

double post...

I'm seeing a potential mini-solera here. It seems like you could decant a starter into a jug and add the vinegar mother, then every time you make a starter for a batch of beer, add some to the jug. Then pull off a portion when the jug starts to get full, and set that aside to finish aging. That way you have a continual mother colony and you're constantly feeding it when you make a batch of beer.

Anyone see problems with this?

Owly055 said:

vinegar is something that requires patience........ cover and forget for 4 or 5 months.

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Based on the generator process you described, if you just have it in a bottle or carboy, would it be better to just forget it, or to aerate it every once in a while?

BGBC said:

Based on the generator process you described, if you just have it in a bottle or carboy, would it be better to just forget it, or to aerate it every once in a while?

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There's not much surface area in a bottle or carboy. How about using an aquarium pump and airstone? I don't know if it would be better to run it continuously, or on a timer a few times per day.

z-bob said:

There's not much surface area in a bottle or carboy. How about using an aquarium pump and airstone? I don't know if it would be better to run it continuously, or on a timer a few times per day.

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No....... the idea is that the wood shavings or whatever, are a surface where the bacteria are active and extremely well aerated. The shavings are not saturated, but kept wet with the liquid trickling down over them. The idea being to maintain an optimal growth environment for acetobacter, which is an aerated but wet surface apparently.

The generator process is quite old......... the first "fast" vinegar process, and is apparently still used for craft vinegar making. It is really very different from an aerated liquid. This isn't like a mash with grain submerged in liquid.


H.W.

I'm starting to get a vision of what you're talking about. I wanna try the Cooper's english bitter for this project. It makes such a good mop sauce that it'd likely make a good malt vinegar too. But the idea of a mother sounds interesting too. Gotta get some Cooper's & gt the beer going first...

Owly055 said:

No....... the idea is that the wood shavings or whatever, are a surface where the bacteria are active and extremely well aerated. The shavings are not saturated, but kept wet with the liquid trickling down over them. The idea being to maintain an optimal growth environment for acetobacter, which is an aerated but wet surface apparently.

The generator process is quite old......... the first "fast" vinegar process, and is apparently still used for craft vinegar making. It is really very different from an aerated liquid. This isn't like a mash with grain submerged in liquid.

H.W.

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I didn't realize you were talking about the generator; thought you just meant the old fashioned way in an open bottle.

I tried using mason jars with nylon mesh (same as BIAB) in a box with 80 degree air passing through. In a couple of weeks most evaporated and I just got a mess.

Maybe there was too high a temp or too high an air flow?

Maybe the same conditions would be ideal for a generator?

Tom

TheZymurgist said:

I'm seeing a potential mini-solera here. It seems like you could decant a starter into a jug and add the vinegar mother, then every time you make a starter for a batch of beer, add some to the jug. Then pull off a portion when the jug starts to get full, and set that aside to finish aging. That way you have a continual mother colony and you're constantly feeding it when you make a batch of beer.

Anyone see problems with this?

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I like the cut of your jib, sir.

sumbrewindude said:

I like the cut of your jib, sir.

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I just did some research on this, and it seems like the way to go. I think I'll use a 2.5 gal bucket as the "primary" and just pull some either when it's done or when it gets full, which ever comes first.

The only thing I can't find any information on is what would happen if you mixed wine vinegar and malt vinegar. What would happen if I were to throw in leftovers from a wine bottle into the malt vinegar bucket?

Just returned to Panama after over a month away. Left a gallon of malt vinegar fermenting (Guiness + culture). Wow, very definitely vinegar, good, but not as malty as I hoped. Next batch may try a base beer like a bock for more maltiness.

Blended a sample with a little malt drink and that helped, but unfortunately it contains sugars which I suspect might create spoilage issues, but it gives me an idea of the flavor profile I want.

May also try just adding a maltier beer to the pot so that over time, with multiple uses/additions it should turn maltier.

Also need to find a crock with a spigot for ease of dispensing. I can foresee having several of these going with different vinegars in each.

Have also thought of infusing the malt vinegar with some spice or herb. What do you think would be good?

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Curtis2010 said:

Just returned to Panama after over a month away. Left a gallon of malt vinegar fermenting (Guiness + culture). Wow, very definitely vinegar, good, but not as malty as I hoped. Next batch may try a base beer like a bock for more maltiness.
...

May also try just adding a maltier beer to the pot so that over time, with multiple uses/additions it should turn maltier.

...

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Decanted off a lot of the finished vinegar today and bottled it.

Added two bottles of Leffe Brown to the fermentation crock to replace it.

My plan is to keep adding malty beers as I find them. A bock or double bock I think would be tasty, but didn't find any today.

What I think will be cool about that is by the time we use up one decanted batch, another with a different flavor should be done. My GF is a foodie and loves to cook. And we can keep adjusting the flavor of the batch until we really like it.

May also get a batch of red wine vinegar going. Red wines we try but don't like can be dumped in the crock.

Curtis2010 said:

Decanted off a lot of the finished vinegar today and bottled it.

Added two bottles of Leffe Brown to the fermentation crock to replace it.

My plan is to keep adding malty beers as I find them. A bock or double bock I think would be tasty, but didn't find any today.

What I think will be cool about that is by the time we use up one decanted batch, another with a different flavor should be done. My GF is a foodie and loves to cook. And we can keep adjusting the flavor of the batch until we really like it.

May also get a batch of red wine vinegar going. Red wines we try but don't like can be dumped in the crock.

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If you like vinegar, it's almost foolish not to do this............. It's as easy as falling off a log.


H.W.

I've been hashing over a couple ideas for the malt vinegar. I like the Cooper's English bitter for drinking with pit BBQ & the mop sauce I make. Now, one thought is adding a flavor hop addition @ 10 to 15 minutes left in the boil of EKG, since it has an herbal/lemon grass flavor to it. Thought it might taste good in the end? My other thought is what to bottle it in? Maybe twist-off 12oz beer bottles with some kind of screw-cap/pourer combo? Anyone ever used something like this?

Owly055 said:

If you like vinegar, it's almost foolish not to do this............. It's as easy as falling off a log.


H.W.

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Yes, dead easy so why not, and we travel a lot so no rush in letting it ferment.

unionrdr said:

I've been hashing over a couple ideas for the malt vinegar. I like the Cooper's English bitter for drinking with pit BBQ & the mop sauce I make. Now, one thought is adding a flavor hop addition @ 10 to 15 minutes left in the boil of EKG, since it has an herbal/lemon grass flavor to it. Thought it might taste good in the end? My other thought is what to bottle it in? Maybe twist-off 12oz beer bottles with some kind of screw-cap/pourer combo? Anyone ever used something like this?

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I've been searching for good containers too, both for the primary fermentation crock and individual bottles. For the primary crock I would like something like one of the old clay pots with a tap, but those are less common these days and relatively expensive, but I think its ideal and its a one time expense so am looking for a couple.

For now I'm just using whatever clear bottles we have for bottling, mostly rum bottles, but an insertable pour cap, like used with some oils would be ideal I think.

Like homebrewing, one thing I like about the idea of brewing vinegar is that you can customize it. I want to settle on a couple of "house blends" and keep a crock of each going.

My GF is a foodie and I like to brew so its a good fit. What she doesn't use we can give to friends.

Did some vinegar research today. Learned that better malt vinegars are oak barrel aged (Oh boy! Another excuse to buy some barrels). I think I will try adding some toasted oak chips before going down the small barrel route.

Traditional Balsamic vinegar is a more complex product which is barrel aged for a mninmum of 12 years.

These barrels look great.
http://oakbarrelsltd.com/vinegar-barrels/oak-vinegar-barrels-toasted/

Those barrels do look really nice! But wouldn't barrel aging malt vinegar make it Balsamic vinegar?

unionrdr said:

Those barrels do look really nice! But wouldn't barrel aging malt vinegar make it Balsamic vinegar?

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My understanding is that true balsamic vinegar starts out as grape must which is then barrel aged for a minimum of 12 years. Whereas malt vinegar starts out as beer.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balsamic_vinegar

There are also barrel aged malt vinegars, but I don't think they are typically aged nearly as long.

Really good balsamic vinegar is like a sauce unto itself. But malt vinegar is great on so many things as a condiment. Soon I'll have to get the english bitter going so I can brew a gallon of malt vinegar out of it. Gonna be a different year in brewing!

I've found some unpasteurized apple cider vinegar. The vinegar was filtered, there is no sediment in the bottle. I'm planning to use a couple of 22 ounce bottles of dry Irish stout with a few tablespoons of the vinegar. I'll hold this in a gallon jar on the top shelf of the pantry. This may be the warmest spot in the house.
Does this seem like it will work to make vinegar? Has anyone used a dry stout with good results?
My goal is to have a good vinegar to go with fish and chips.

Seems to me stout would make a darker, roastier malt vinegar than something like Cooper's English bitter? I guess we'll just have to find out when we all get some batches done?

Great thread! I'm thinking about making my own vinegar as well. Thank you very much for this.

As far as production is concerned, I have a couple of questions:

1. Is there any benefit to pasteurizing the beer, killing any yeast, before adding the mother?

2. Would driving off CO2 from the beer help the acetobacter, which is aerobic, do it's job?

Interesting questions. I've never made vinegar before & wasn't planning on killing the yeast or oxygenating it. Although slow oxygenation through wood chips seems to speed up the process?

I guess I hit the wrong reply button but I find this fascinating. It would be interesting to know if acetobactor actually behaves better under those conditions. It would be interesting to set up a controlled experiment to see if pasturization and decarbonation have any effect on finishing times.

Look back through the thread. Somebody spoke of this rig with a pump & wood chips...

I saw the post. Thank you for that. These factors are different in that you aren't adding oxygen, but removing CO2 and removing possible biological competition. I should set this experiment up and post it on HBT. Maybe in the next month or so...

Heinz makes a vinegar with mother, so you should be able to find it in your local grocery store, rather than hitting up the health food store or ordering online.

http://www.heinzvinegar.com/products-unfiltered-apple-cider-vinegar.aspx

I've been doing this for awhile and I think it's a great idea. Obviously separation and sanitation is vital. If you do high gravity beer, remash and rack onto a mother culture. Same with wine from the first racking. Same with cider. I haven't bought vinegar in years and have some VERY interesting ones from stout to blackberry. I think one day it would be very popular and have seen just oil and vinegar stores.

The SCOBY can get pretty crazy if you take that and rerack to tea!

Go for it!

I made a Graff recently that I'm not real fond of. Might be an option for salvaging a few of these bottles I have tucked away.

ToilAndTrouble said:

Great thread! I'm thinking about making my own vinegar as well. Thank you very much for this.

As far as production is concerned, I have a couple of questions:

1. Is there any benefit to pasteurizing the beer, killing any yeast, before adding the mother?

2. Would driving off CO2 from the beer help the acetobacter, which is aerobic, do it's job?

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I'm still very much a vinegar noob, but here are my thoughts:

1. I don't think so and I have not. Yeasts feed on sugars and there are no sugars being added for them to eat. Once the acetabact do their thing on the alcohol then the highly acidic environ should kill any yeast

2. Oxygen is important to acetabact ferm. I've let my beer sit, loosely covered, to go flat and then added to ferm crock. I areate the crock occassionally with a whisk. An areation system. like for brewing, would likely be a good thing.

flars said:

I've found some unpasteurized apple cider vinegar. The vinegar was filtered, there is no sediment in the bottle. I'm planning to use a couple of 22 ounce bottles of dry Irish stout with a few tablespoons of the vinegar. I'll hold this in a gallon jar on the top shelf of the pantry. This may be the warmest spot in the house.
Does this seem like it will work to make vinegar? Has anyone used a dry stout with good results?
My goal is to have a good vinegar to go with fish and chips.

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If there is still live culture left in the vinegar then yes. I suggest proofing a small amount first before you waste all the beer.