What am I doing wrong, no holds barred!

This is long, grab a beer, if you finish the read I thank you.

Sooo jumping right in, I brewed two batches of extract beer last winter (Port O' Palmer and Cinncinatti Pale Ale) after reading "How to Brew." Both turned out poorly and I sort of stopped brewing and spent my home brew money on beer of course. Skip to this year, my grandmother is throwing away my grandfathers old wine making equipment. Obviously I said I'd take it (7 glass Carboys, probably 30+ 1 gallon jugs, possibly 100+ 750ml screw-tops, and I've yet to go through the airlocks, stoppers, siphon equipment, etc.) So with my freshly stocked armory of brewing equipment I've been motivated to try my hand again. I do want to learn a bit more about wine making as well, but that's a bit less complex than brewing, and to be honest I don't like waiting a year or more for alcoholic gratification. Plus I have detailed lists, gravities, and input on recreating my grandfather's wines. Brewing is a bit of a mystery for me, but I do have this notion that in the short term learning to brew better will help me make better wine and visa versa.

To top all that off, yesterday I was running through all this in my head and I remembered "Wild Blue." It's a blueberry lager my grandpa loved, to be honest it's really quite nasty, and I don't recommend you try it. But it got me thinking about a blueberry lambic (My family is very Belgian) after all it's the least I can bring to family barbecues after being graciously given $1,000+ worth of glassware and equipment. But that's all the mushy sentimental BS, on to me cutting corners and making **** beer. First I'll describe the beers and their flavors, and then I'll give you the process.

Pale Ale: Clear, lager color, maybe a bit darker. Big head with extra large bubbles, quickly fades. Not much on the smell front. Not a ton of beer flavor either, to me it tastes flat, or stale, very sour and puckering. Not the good sour like a Belgian Sour Ale or green apple, sort of puckering qualities without the fruity taste. My friends say it's sulfury. Bottle conditioned for over a year, flavor remains the same.

Porter: Clear, porter color, perhaps a bit lighter. Big thick bubbles, I know this one is over carbonated, the bubbles are like pop except larger. Smells fruity and delicious. Tastes fruity, not a whole lot of hops flavor, sweet, but not too much so. Tastes better, but the same sour flavor lingers in your mouth. I can drink it alright, but I don't really like to. Sour flavor was very present initially, but has faded somewhat as it has aged over the past year. Friends say it's sulfury on this one too.

Anyways, on to what I did wrong. I've lost track of my notes with gravities and such. Let me know everything an anything I did wrong.

Step 1 Sanitation: Sanitized everything with LD Carlson Easy Clean (Got with a kit). Made up about a gallon in brewing bucket, than rubbed all my kit down with a rag as opposed to soaking, what van I say, I'm cheap. Clorox bleached all working surfaces.

Step 2 Boil: Used well water (softened), I think it tastes alright. Boiled with extract only for the pale, specialty grains with the porter. Temps all lined up.

Step 3 Cool: Cooled outside in the snow with a lid on the boil kettle. Took 1-1.5 hours to reach 80. Then dumped between two sanitized buckets to aerate.

Step 4 Ferment: Pitched yeast, fermented for 1-2 weeks at about 68-70 degrees.

Step 5 Bottling: Added sugar boiled with water, siphoned to bottle bucket with mouth (I know, what can I say I'm cheap.) Bottled with racking cane.

Let me know what you think I could do to improve my next batch. I have tons of great ideas, but I really think I should master the basics first.

1. Sanitation may be an issue. Soaking would be better. Especially if the rag wasn't the cleanest. I'd also recommend Star-San over the Easy Clean (preference, as I've never used or read up on the easy clean).

2. Did I read correctly that you boiled the grains for the Porter recipe? If so, this is a big no-no as boiling will extract harsh tannins from the grain and result in a poor tasting beer. They should be steeped @ 170F for around 20 minutes.

3. Fermentation temp is on the high side.

Siphoning with your mouth can introduce enzymes into your beer that eat at the sugars. Getting an auto-siphon would be my first recommendation. I would also recommend chilling your wort more quickly. Maybe try boiling 3 gallons of wort, cooling down to 150 degrees in cold-water / ice bath (in the sink) and then crashing the temperature with 2 gallons of cold water. If you pour it from high up, it will splash around a lot and help to put air in the wort, as the cold water can hold more oxygen. Then pitch yeast...

Ace_Club said:

1. Sanitation may be an issue. Soaking would be better. Especially if the rag wasn't the cleanest. I'd also recommend Star-San over the Easy Clean (preference, as I've never used or read up on the easy clean).

2. Did I read correctly that you boiled the grains for the Porter recipe? If so, this is a big no-no as boiling will extract harsh tannins from the grain and result in a poor tasting beer. They should be steeped @ 170F for around 20 minutes.

3. Fermentation temp is on the high side.

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Just to add to the sanitation theme, mouth siphoning can introduce a whole herd of nasties to your beer, get an auto-siphon.

TSorry, I steeped the grains at 160-170 prior to the boil. Could I benefit from different water or a chiller? Thanks for all the advice.

GRHunter said:

Just to add to the sanitation theme, mouth siphoning can introduce a whole herd of nasties to your beer, get an auto-siphon.

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Exactly what I just said...

mixedbrewer said:

Siphoning with your mouth can introduce enzymes into your beer that eat at the sugars.

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The enzymes in saliva (called amylases) convert starches to sugars, they don't "eat" the sugars.

Since the OP is using malt extract, the conversion of starch to sugar is already complete at this point. Its unlikely that the small amount of amylases from saliva would have any effect.

The LOADS of beer spoiling bacteria from your mouth on the other hand....(+1 to GRHunter's comment).

I would do a kit like brewers Best and choose na easy one like English Brown Ale. That is what I did and it gave me the confidence to grow. As I tried to enhance my beers I failed on my third batch with a bad yeast choice. My confidence was good though and I moved on and now have 12 batches done.
Keep it simple even if it is not the beer you will take to the picnic.
this will help sort out the correct pieces too.

I don't have much experience to offer, but have done some of the 'no-no's' mentions above.

Specifically, I sanitize with a rag and have no problems. I'm a student and it helps to stretch my cleaner a bit farther (maybe just buy a cloth specifically for your brew equipment if you haven't already). But I'm not familiar with Easy Clean so not sure there.

I also used to siphon with my mouth, with no ill effects, but stopped doing that a while ago. You don't even need an auto siphon, after you run through the cleaning agent, run through some water and just clamp it off. Just leave the water in and let 'er go. Works for me at least.

Any specifics on recipes you can remember? (hopping sched maybe?) I realize it was a while ago.

Well, let me start this off by saying that other than beginning to gather equipment and reading books, I have literally no experience.

Does your water softener use salt? I recently read that a water softener that uses salt strips out some important ions or something along those lines.

As far as syphoning goes, growing up on a farm has taught me quite a bit about that (syphon tubes and ditches to water crops), so you can trust this advice. Instead of using your mouth to start the syphon, just fill the tube clear full with water, cover one end with your hand air tight, put the other end in the fermentor, bring the end with your hand down to syphon level and let go. Obviously let the water run out of the tube before filling bottles.

Going back to the area that I have no experience in, I would boil the water before filling your tube with it (the tube, i'm assuming you already know to sanitize), and make sure to wash your hands really well, especially the one that plugs the end of the tube.

Get a spray bottle and some star san. A dirty rag is probably not the best choice and don't siphon with your mouth. There are other ways to get a siphon going.

I'm sorry... enzymes and bacteria, or as GRH put it... Nasties.

+1 on not syphoning with your mouth
+1 on soaking your equipment (not sure if this would have made a difference, but i certainly feel better soaking my equipment)

I would invest in an immersion chiller. Getting your beer down to proper temp in a timely manner is so beneficial to turning out a good product. Not to mention shaves a lot of time off the whole process. In cold weather (below 30) I can generally get my wort cooled to proper temp in about 12-15 minutes using an immersion chiller. Even quicker if you use a counter flow or plate chiller. Perhaps you could barter some of your newly aquired equipment for a chiller.

According to the LD Carlson webpage easy clean is a cleanser not a sanitizer. Get some star san or iodophor. Don't use a rag to sanitize, sanitizer needs time to work, usually a minute. So soak it. Don't use your mouth to siphon, get a racking can or auto siphon. Ferment your beer around 65 to avoid off flavors. That should get you on the right path.

+1 to the chiller and if you continue to have problems try bottled water.

It sounds to me you like you already know what you are doing wrong. Every time you say "I'm cheap" you are doing something that can cause problems. Here's what I would recommend:

1. Use Star San and PBW for cleaning, soak or use spray bottle, don't use a rag.
Note- any unscented sodium percarbonate product can be used instead of PBW to save money.

2. Don't start siphons with your mouth, use an auto siphon or one of these: http://morebeer.com/view_product/18873//Sterile_Siphon_Starter_-_For_6.5_Gallon_Carboy_

I prefer the sterile siphon starter with the filter.

3. Get rid of all your old tubing and start fresh.

4. Ferment in the primary for AT LEAST three weeks. Don't bother with a secondary. This will allow the yeast to clean up after itself leaving less possibility of off flavors.

5. Consider making or buying an immersion chiller. You will thank yourself for this afterwards.

6. Add your extract at the end of the boil instead of at the beginning.

7. Consider filtering your water or else using store bought spring water. I would recommend using store bought spring water at least once to see how much it improves your beer.

8. Make something simpler than a lambic for your first few batches. Lambics are fairly high on the difficultly scale (not so much with the process but with having them come out right).

9. Remember that brewing isn't necessarily cheap (it can be once you are fully set up but not at first).

Buy some additional gear including one of the siphons I mentioned, a wort chiller, and a water filter. Your beer will improve drastically if you do. The sourness you are getting in your beers is most likely an infection, pay extra special attention to your sanitation practices and use modern cleaning chemicals. Sanitation is perhaps the most important part of brewing.

Good luck and welcome back to brewing!

Great advice! So I should, buy star san, buy auto-siphon/start siphon with sanitizer, look into making or buying a chiller, and possibly try a better water.

You could definitely benefit with a chiller, but I doubt that your cooling time is the reason it tastes like sulfur. Sulfur and an astringent or puckering quality is usually an indicator of a bacterial infection. Let's see here...

Step 1 Sanitation: Sanitized everything with LD Carlson Easy Clean (Got with a kit). Made up about a gallon in brewing bucket, than rubbed all my kit down with a rag as opposed to soaking, what van I say, I'm cheap. Clorox bleached all working surfaces.

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I agree with Ace_Club about the StarSan. Easy Clean says it's no rinse, but I've always been suspicious. My first kit came with a bit of it and I used it until it ran out, but I would probably not use it again. StarSan or Iodophor are good sanitizers that many people here use successfully.

As for the rag, I would be wary using something like that. Seems to me it could harbor bacteria that may not get killed by a dunk in the sanitizer. If you are using something like StarSan it should be fine to just coat the surfaces with the sanitizer. I use my hands.

Step 2 Boil: Used well water (softened), I think it tastes alright. Boiled with extract only for the pale, specialty grains with the porter. Temps all lined up.

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Your well water may have some minerals or other things that might be bad for all-grain brewing, but should not be a big deal for extract brews. If you move into all-grain you may want to get it profiled and figure out what sorts of minerals you're dealing with. Can't see this being the problem with your first two beers.

Step 3 Cool: Cooled outside in the snow with a lid on the boil kettle. Took 1-1.5 hours to reach 80. Then dumped between two sanitized buckets to aerate.

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Again, you could benefit from a better cooling process. My ice baths usually took anywhere from 15-30 minutes to cool about 2.5-3 gallons of wort to 75F. Keeping your lid on your cooling wort also helps trap that heat in, but you wouldn't want to go lidless if you are cooling outside. An ice bath in your sink inside would be much better than snow outside, in my opinion. However, except for the unlikely change that some bacteria "fell" in your wort while it was cooling for 1.5 hours, a long cooling time shouldn't contribute to the flavors you're describing.

Step 4 Ferment: Pitched yeast, fermented for 1-2 weeks at about 68-70 degrees.

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I usually leave my beer in primary for at least 3 weeks. This lets the yeast clean up after themselves, and this may be where some of your off flavors are coming from.

Also, as was said, your temps seem to be a bit high, depending on the yeast you used. This is probably where the fruity flavors are coming from, and possibly some of the sulfur as well.

Step 5 Bottling: Added sugar boiled with water, siphoned to bottle bucket with mouth (I know, what can I say I'm cheap.) Bottled with racking cane.

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Don't siphon by mouth. Ever. If you must, fill a pitcher with sanitizer, stick the "out" end of your hose in it, then lower the pitcher to the ground until you've pulled enough beer to start the siphon. Get an autosiphon. They're essential if you don't want to hate your brewing process and you will need one for wine making as well.

Your mouth is full of bacteria and enzymes, both of which will cause all sorts of problems with your brew.


To me it seems like you gave up a bit too soon. Brew a few more beers and see if you can get rid of the flavors. Get an autosyphon and start doing ice baths. If you're worried about the water, gallons of drinking water are super cheap at your local evil-super-market-store-center. Try some recipes here in the recipe database, or get some proven kits from your LHBS or one of the fine online stores. I would try to stick with ones that call for steeped grains. I have a feeling the reason your pale ale seemed thin was because of its lack of steeping grains.

Hope I helped a bit. It seems like you have a good handle on brewing, just a few missteps that are causing you some problems.

EDIT: so I had to walk away from the computer and everybody beats me to it. I think JonK is right, you already know what you're doing wrong and how to fix it. Your next brews will be better, trust me.

If you dont want to invest in a chiller right now at least chill in an ice bath instead of a snow bank... kepp the cool water moving around the pot. a snow bank is not efficient for cooling, once the snow right around the pot melts it starts to insulate, taking longer to cool. I would buy a recommended kit from a brew shop and spend the less thatn ten dollars on the auto siphon, or a least look up how to start a siphon without using your mouth. After those I would make sure to leave your beer in the primary for three weeks, really does make a difference. then the next best thing you can do is make more beer, no one here got it perfect on their first couple tries

First thing I would do is look at your sanitation. I lost two batches due to infection earlier this year. Both batches had the sour taste you described -- not a good sour taste at all. I started using Iodine to sanitize everything, as well as a bleach solution on my kitchen surfaces and the floor. Since I upped my sanitation practices I have not had a problem.

Look at sanitation as a two step process:

1. Clean -- scrub everything (use a soft brush or paper towel on plastics). I use antibacterial soap -- use a liberal amount -- really foam everything up and dry with a paper towel.

2. Sanitize -- anything that doesn't touch the wort you can use a bleach solution on such as the kitchen sink, counter tops, and the floor. Allow to air dry. Anything that touches the wort -- SOAK it in either Star San or Iodphor. I soak my fermenter for 30 minutes or more filled to the top with iodophor solution. Allow all pieces to air dry.

*I keep two spray bottles on had during the entire brew -- one filled with iodophor solution and the other with a bleach solution.

*Sanitize bottles using the above 2 step process. Fill with iodophor solution and let soak for a few minutes before putting them on your bottle tree. Always clean bottles if only briefly but scrubbing with a bottle brush and hot water.

*When transferring the cooled wort to your fermenter and pitching the yeast, make sure to close off any air vents and keep the pets outside.

*Purchase an immersion chiller -- one of the benefits of cooling the wort quickly is reducing the likelihood of contamination.

+1 on the auto-siphon -- easily the handiest little tool you'll ever use in brewing. This is a necessity in my opinion. Using your mouth to siphon can result in bacterial contamination.

Another thing I do in terms of sanitation is to empty my trash can, clean with bleach, then throw in a fresh bag. There's all sorts of bacteria in there and during the brew day you'll be using the trashcan a lot.

Easy Clean is a Sodium Percarbonate. This works fairly well as a sanitizer if used as directed. It uses the method of oxidizing via hydrogen peroxide.

Update, gonna do John Palmer's Stout recipe, looks easy enough. Bought some StarSan, found an auto siphon, and made an immersion chiller, more like an investment the way the price of copper is going!

I have a couple more questions, not really related to this brew, just curiosity.

I see that racking to a secondary is frowned upon, unless your adding fruits, coffee, etc. Or you want to age something like a strong ale. I guess my question is could you add fruit, etc. to the primary after fermentation has slowed and sort of infuse it that way or is it better to get it off the trub?

Also, if I'm steeping specialty grains I've seen some people say to just throw them in a bag and other say to crush them with a rolling pin first. Seems crushing them would extract more sugars, like course versus fine coffee in a press. Is it better to crush them first or does it not matter if your only steeping for 30 minutes?

Twerp129 said:

Update, gonna do John Palmer's Stout recipe, looks easy enough. Bought some StarSan, found an auto siphon, and made an immersion chiller, more like an investment the way the price of copper is going!

I have a couple more questions, not really related to this brew, just curiosity.

I see that racking to a secondary is frowned upon, unless your adding fruits, coffee, etc. Or you want to age something like a strong ale. I guess my question is could you add fruit, etc. to the primary after fermentation has slowed and sort of infuse it that way or is it better to get it off the trub?

Also, if I'm steeping specialty grains I've seen some people say to just throw them in a bag and other say to crush them with a rolling pin first. Seems crushing them would extract more sugars, like course versus fine coffee in a press. Is it better to crush them first or does it not matter if your only steeping for 30 minutes?

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I'd recommend staying away from the fruit beers, even when done right they add another layer of complexity to recipe building/tweaking. At worst, they will ruin your beer. Nail your process down first, then start the experiments.

FYI...many fruit flavors come as extracts...Its fun to add whole fruit to beer for flavor, but it does cause some extra problems/hassle. Extracts are a good way to add fruit flavor.

As for grain steeping....definitely crush. I can't think of any reason why you'd add whole/uncrushed grains to the brewing process. The stuff you read about "just throw the grains in" is probably already assuming that you've crushed them.

Twerp129 said:

TSorry, I steeped the grains at 160-170 prior to the boil. Could I benefit from different water or a chiller? Thanks for all the advice.

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Could be that you steeped a tad too high, or that your thermometer is off by a few degrees. I just discovered mine is off by a few and the minor adjustment seems to be making a difference. Not that it would make a huge difference since you are making extract batches, but it could explain some of the lack of flavor or body you are talking about.

If you go with using all or some bottled water, just remember, you want some minerals in there, so stay away from distilled unless you want to add your own minerals. I just made my 1st 2 batches with softened water (moved into a new house), so I'm keeping my fingers crossed with that, but it could explain off flavors.

Also, it sounds like you used a cleaner, which is good, but I didn't read about any sanitizer on the equipment. You mentioned Clorox on the surfaces, but I read that as counters and whatnot and not fermenter, tubing, etc... There is definately a difference and I'm guessing you had clean, but not sanitized equipment. I just got my 1st 'batch' of StarSan with my kegerator kit, so I have no experience with it yet, but I've had GREAT luck with some bar/restraunt glass sanitizer tablets I pick up from GFS for about $9. The only thing I'd be careful with if you go the 'sanitab' route is that I dry everything before using it, whereas with StarSan you can use it wet.

Thanks for all the advice guys, last batch turned out good, not great but very drinkable.

Now that I've been extremely anal with data too, I've realized I'm getting really poor attenuation with the rolling pin. I mean really poor. So that's either an excuse to buy more brewing stuff or I guess I could have the LHBS do it but where's the fun in that?

Again thanks for all the help!

Attenuation vs. rolling pin. One wont have much to do with the other unless you are crushing all grain mashes with a rolling pin. If you are just crunching one or two pounds in a plastic bag just to steep them, they will be fine. Maybe attenuation isn't the word you are looking for...?

on the siphoning, you can prime it with your mouth just make sure to swill some vodka before you do it. Auto siphons are nice though, I dont have one so I do the vodka method and it works just fine for me.

These guys did a great job covering all the bases. On your last post, Get the LHBS to crush the grain for you, or buy a crusher. When I buy my steeping grains I get them whole, but I have a grain crusher. If your going to brew within a week or so of purchase the crushed grain is good to go for about 2 weeks. I keep mine in the fridge.
Something you didn't mention, did you boil with the lid on the pot? Don't do that, boiling in the open gets rid of the Dyacital, nasties.
SOme call it a sin, but I chill my wort with ice, right in the wort. It brings the temp down from boiling to 75* or so in about 2 minutes. 30 batches so far and no problems. Nothing to clean, no water hose to fart with. Getting the wort cool fast allows yeast pitch and getting it under an airlock quickly, reducing the chance of an infection.
Good call on aqireing an autosiphon.

When I first started out I started siphons with my mouth. It is not ideal, the amount of bacteria in a persons mouth is insane and vodka will not kill it.

rjwhite41 said:

When I first started out I started siphons with my mouth. It is not ideal, the amount of bacteria in a persons mouth is insane and vodka will not kill it.

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Interesting, autosiphon here I come I guess. Thanks!

Just a note, I don't know if anyone else mentioned this, but you mentioned using bleach to sanitize things. First off, bleach requires some time to work, so things need to be soaked in it, and secondly, if you don't completely rinse if off, bleach can leave some nasty flavors. So, if you fill your fermenter with bleach solution, then dump it out, you may be getting off flavors from that.

If you do rinse, well, you want to do it with sanitized water, as your tap water could have some bacteria in it.

All of that adds up to being a lot more work than using a no-rinse sanitizer.

another thing as well, looks like you only did 2 extract batches... i'd do a few more, as my first few brews were drinkable, but nothing i'd really pass out to friends, as time went on and i dialed down the processes it has gotten tons better.
another thing as well, those recipies may have never been to your taste, two different breweries could do 2 diferent pale ales, but you don't like this one vs one you do like, etc, just takes alot of time and patience

"Industrial" plastic spray bottle + 1 gallon of distilled water + small bottle of star san = santization problems solved.

I swear by the stuff, it's saved my sorry ass on every single batch I've done.

I'll also join in on the auto-siphon chorus, it's cheap and awesome (and way better than sucking on the tube)

Well water is probably okay as long as it's not too hard, or has extra goodies like a lot of iron. You might want to have it tested, just to eliminate it as a possibility. I brew with bottled water because I'm on a city water system that adds chloramines to the water.

As far as recipes are concerned, (and I still consider myself a relative newbie) I like to keep things simple with my grain bill and instead experiment with different yeast or hops. I'm very passionate about Belgian brews, have read "Brew Like a Monk" a couple times, and find that the "keep it simple" concept has worked well for me.

You can probably get some nice results with a partial mash (or just steeped grains) + extract recipe, and if you want to brew Belgian styles that can be very easy to achieve as long as you get your sanitization in check. There are a lot of really wonderful Belgian yeast strains available and part of what I enjoy most about homebrewing is experimentation.