I love no sparge brewing...

This makes me wonder how little we can do and still get a good beer.

Skip the mash tun and sparging with BIAB.
Skip chilling with the no chill method.
Skip preparing a starter by using the "real wort" starter method.
Skip aerating by using olive oil in the starter.

Pretty soon, All-Grain will be quicker than extract

jason.mundy said:

This makes me wonder how little we can do and still get a good beer.
...
Skip aerating by using olive oil in the starter.

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There are a couple of threads on this one... longer lag times and more esters. I think that one is busted.

Saccharomyces said:

Yep it's that simple, and my volume worked out spot on (I was a quart short pre-boil because I spilled a quart of water trying to prime the pump ). I made a chart in the back of my brewlog notebook so I don't have to figure it out each time.

The ale pail is a #2 HDPE food grade ale pail, same one you get from LHBS. HDPE can handle the heat. Anything else cannot including glass... Better Bottles melt at just over 140*F... for more info on no chill see this thread, no sense re-hashing it all here.

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Saweeet! Yeah, I'm already no chill (as you can see in my sig). I think I've done about 8 batches this way. I've heard Jamil say a couple of times that he thinks you get the best wort quality with no sparge. I don't understand why he doesn't do it, though.

Next beer no sparge - no chill - no hops.






ok, maybe hops.

Saccharomyces said:

The sparge manifold in the cooler is a 3' piece of reinforced PVC tubing from Home Depot with holes drilled every 1/2" and a plug in the end. It's connected to a nipple sandwich which comes through the lid just like the pot lid.

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mmmmmmmmm, nipple sandwich.

I think this is the way I want to go. no HLT,one pump,one burner. less $$.

Ok, so I just read an article on BYO about no sparge. It says,

When you brew with the no-sparge method, this 3 to 5 gallons is added to the mash tun at the end of the mash, before recirculation, and allows the mash tun to be simply drained to achieve full boil volume. By using more grain and adding all the water during the mash, you can relax and not worry about mash pH, astringency and undershooting your gravity.

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Sounds like they're adding the rest of the water at the end of the mash.

If I just mash with my total boil volume (7 gallons) I figure my strike temperature will be different as the water to grain ratio is drastically different. How did you calculate that?

I just might try this tomorrow.

7gal*4=28 quarts. 28quarts/13lbs of grain= 2.15384615 quarts/lbs I just randomly picked 13 lbs. then go here
http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml
with a ration of 2.15, a grain temp of 60, and a desired temp of 155, your strike temp should be 166.

smoa said:

7gal*4=28 quarts. 28quarts/13lbs of grain= 2.15384615 quarts/lbs I just randomly picked 13 lbs. then go here
http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml
with a ration of 2.15, a grain temp of 60, and a desired temp of 155, your strike temp should be 166.

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Why, oh, why did I not think to use brewing software?

I blame it on the homebrew.

Yeap BeerSmith handles it just fine when you plug in the whole volume as the strike volume.

+11* over mash temp was dead on, according to my notes from the first brew.

Heating up my mash water now. All 9 gallons of it for a 5 gallon batch.

You ever try to make anything out of the second runnings? I'm doing a stout tonight. Maybe I'll throw some hops in and make an extremely light stout.

I should be heating up my sparge water right now. But now I have time to post senslessly. Just thought I'd gloat.

I'm really liking this setup, Sacc. I've been debating my next move for a while and this has given me serious food for thought.

I've got a 10 gal cooler MLT and a converted sanke pot that currently serves double duty HLT & boil kettle. I hate all the shuffling of buckets and pots up and down, so a pump is highly desireable. Also, I notice quite a bit of stratification in my MLT, cool at the bottom, hot near the top. Recirculating would fix that for sure. I really like using the BK for the heating device, it's just so simple!

So, the curiosity I have about recirculating the entire volume, no sparge, and BIAB in general is the effect the larger volume of water has on the mash PH. You've got a larger quantity of water, is there any reason that would wreak havoc? I'm just starting to understand mash PH, so I could be way off base...

chefchris said:

You ever try to make anything out of the second runnings? I'm doing a stout tonight. Maybe I'll throw some hops in and make an extremely light stout.

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I haven't yet, but I will definitely partigyle the Red IPA when I do it no sparge since I'll be doing 10 gallons at 1.065-1.070. That should net a 1.050-ish 5 gallon batch of APA I can throw in my second pot.

g13092 said:

You've got a larger quantity of water, is there any reason that would wreak havoc? I'm just starting to understand mash PH, so I could be way off base...

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I load up Palmer's water treatment spreadsheet and plug in my SRM and water profile. I set the mash volume to 9 gallons. That gives me the quantity of salts and/or acid to adjust my mash pH. Whereas I might usually say, do 1 tsp of gypsum in the mash and use 4mL of lactic acid for sparge, I will end up throwing them both into the mash tun at the same time so my Calcium doesn't end up too high.

Looks like a nice setup that I'm considering doing. I don't know squat about these pumps, how is the flow restricted or governed so that the flow during recirculation is balanced?

I assume the toolbox is to keep it dry. Anything special on how to mount it in a tb?

HSM said:

Looks like a nice setup that I'm considering doing. I don't know squat about these pumps, how is the flow restricted or governed so that the flow during recirculation is balanced?

I assume the toolbox is to keep it dry. Anything special on how to mount it in a tb?

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https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/march-pump-group-buy-133567/index5.html#post1558041

Inside the box there is a valve on the OUT side of the pump to restrict the flow. I calibrated the flow rates during a trial run and used a Sharpie to mark where on the pump valve the flow is equal to the flow from the MLT when its valve is fully open. It's about 3 quarts/min. Using the mark as a starting point, I only have to adjust it very slightly in the first 5 min and it will balance out after that.

The pump is just sitting in the box with holes drilled for the inlet and outlet, the fittings hold it in place. I didn't mount it at all, because I want to be able to remove the pump should the need arise.

THanks for the info! Just picked up a March 809 PL-HS-C on Ebay for $104 shipped. This is going to be fun!

HSM said:

THanks for the info! Just picked up a March 809 PL-HS-C on Ebay for $104 shipped. This is going to be fun!

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Check it when it comes in. If you bought it from USAPUMPS, he had some mixups on delivery. I ordered mine a month ago, it was late (got it Monday), and it was the center inlet, not inline that I ordered.

However, Michael from USAPUMPS was quick to correct the issue and is sending replacement head. Smoking deal on pumps and gets me set to do my own no sparge.

TeufelBrew said:

Check it when it comes in. If you bought it from USAPUMPS, he had some mixups on delivery. I ordered mine a month ago, it was late (got it Monday), and it was the center inlet, not inline that I ordered.

However, Michael from USAPUMPS was quick to correct the issue and is sending replacement head. Smoking deal on pumps and gets me set to do my own no sparge.

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Isn't the -C the center inlet model? Seems like it would work just fine too, it just needs to be mounted differently.

Wouldn't you be worried about off flavors and chill haze as a result of slow wort cooling?

See here - the chemistry is hard to dispute:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter7-4.html

TeufelBrew said:

Check it when it comes in. If you bought it from USAPUMPS, he had some mixups on delivery. I ordered mine a month ago, it was late (got it Monday), and it was the center inlet, not inline that I ordered.

However, Michael from USAPUMPS was quick to correct the issue and is sending replacement head. Smoking deal on pumps and gets me set to do my own no sparge.

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Yes, bought it from usapumps, they have already emailed the UPS tracking number, so I expect a quick delivery. I bought the Center inlet, I hope i get it!


At 100% positive feedback with 90 transactions I consider that solid and bought it.

If you bought on Ebay and had to wait a month for the wrong product then some Neg or at the least Neut feedback was in order.

jeremysavoy said:

Wouldn't you be worried about off flavors and chill haze as a result of slow wort cooling?

See here - the chemistry is hard to dispute:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter7-4.html

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nope.

try it and see.

Keep wondering if its workable to incorporate an electric BK and recirculate. Guess I would have to keep a close eye on the fluid levels to prevent burning out the element.

BargainFittings said:

Keep wondering if its workable to incorporate an electric BK and recirculate. Guess I would have to keep a close eye on the fluid levels to prevent burning out the element.

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That's exactly what my system does. It's really not that tough to balance the flow - especially if you've got one of those uber-nice Bargain Fittings sightglasses like I do somewhere in the system.

jkarp said:

BargainFittings said:

Keep wondering if its workable to incorporate an electric BK and recirculate. Guess I would have to keep a close eye on the fluid levels to prevent burning out the element.

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That's exactly what my system does. It's really not that tough to balance the flow - especially if you've got one of those uber-nice Bargain Fittings sightglasses like I do somewhere in the system.

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JK, I thought you didn't recirculate?

jkarp said:

bakins said:

Do you ever recirculate just to main temps? I guess the cooler eliminates the need for that.

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Not unless I'm ramping to a new temp. Cooler holds temp great.

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Baron ken said:

JK, I thought you didn't recirculate?

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JK doesn't recirculate during the mash; only after the mash is complete and only then until 170 temp is hit. But you could easily recirculate the entire boil volume from mash in and maintain the mash temp with the PID in the Countertop Brutus 20 system. This thread made me think of that possibility to shave some time off the brew day. Would likely lose some efficiency, but not a ton.

i think i might have to build a system like this. I to am thinking of using a E-kettle for brewing inside in those cold winter months.

It also holds pretty cool quick and easy decoction mash possibility's no more lifting and pouring hot ass wort back into the mash tun

If your brew kettle is large enough you can just use normal BIAB. I do it with an electric element. I just use a steamer basket to keep the bag up and off of the element.

The nice thing about Sacc's system (and jkarp's) is that you don't need a huge BK, because the water is split between the MLT and BK. (With BIAB, you generally need a BK at least twice the batch size bcs all the water is in with the grain.) One advantage of BIAB in a single vessel with a bag is that you get slightly better efficiency as you don't get as more wort absorbed by the grain -- the bag "squeezes" a little more wort out. And, no, I've never had issues with tannins.

I've been wanting to move up to 10 gallon batches. So that means for "normal" BIAB I need a 20 Gallon pot (at least). With a system like this, I can use my old 10 gallon cooler MLT and a 15 gallon BK. I'd have to rig a way to shut off the flow so I could never drain the BK completely during recirculation and dry fire the element. I like to be able to set my system and not be constantly monitoring it.

Okay, just rambling on....

Baron ken said:

JK, I thought you didn't recirculate?

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Actually, I did a continuous mash recirculation a few batches back with my Razzy Wheat. It worked extremely well. As for BIAB and grain absorption, I've been allowing the MLT to continue to drain during the boil. That's essentially another 60 minutes of sparge runoff that's so slow, most people wouldn't bother, but I'm getting grain absorption loss down into the 0.1 gal/lb range.

I have contemplated adding an electric element to the system, but if I were to do that I would go with the RIMS for dummies method because in his design there isn't any possibility of running the element dry (essentially, mount the element inside a tube that sits between the pump and MLT). Also I only have 110v 20A available in the garage, and we aren't planning on staying in this house long enough to make it worthwhile to upgrade to 220v service. A 2000w element is enough to maintain mash temps or to step but not enough to heat the whole volume to strike temp in a reasonable amount of time.

It isn't an accident this system looks a lot like jkarp's. I got the idea from reading his thread.

I do 10 gallon batches and if I wanted to batch sparge at least once (sort of, see below), do you think this would work using BK and MLT vessels, but no HLT?

Have a RIMS on the OUT side of the pump and recirc using that instead of the BK to maintain temps ( BK would be holding the sparge water after initial mash in of 1-2 qts/lb). Then when mash is done, recirc the sparge water from BK along with the runnings for mash out, then pump it all to BK.

jkarp said:

Actually, I did a continuous mash recirculation a few batches back with my Razzy Wheat. It worked extremely well. As for BIAB and grain absorption, I've been allowing the MLT to continue to drain during the boil. That's essentially another 60 minutes of sparge runoff that's so slow, most people wouldn't bother, but I'm getting grain absorption loss down into the 0.1 gal/lb range.

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See? Its ideas like this that appeal to my cheap side!

I think its all come together now. I was doing BIAB and even though it works fine I just don't like the lifting of the bag. 2 vessel brewing I can live with and have been doing it with propane and mashing in one kettle, boiling in the other.

I just want to jump to an electric Boil kettle now.

Baron ken said:

I do 10 gallon batches and if I wanted to batch sparge at least once (sort of, see below), do you think this would work using BK and MLT vessels, but no HLT?

Have a RIMS on the OUT side of the pump and recirc using that instead of the BK to maintain temps ( BK would be holding the sparge water after initial mash in of 1-2 qts/lb). Then when mash is done, recirc the sparge water from BK along with the runnings for mash out, then pump it all to BK.

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Yes the sparge adaptation of this design would use a 5 gallon converted cooler with a braid, which I already have as a second MLT. You would heat half the total volume in the BK, pump it over to the MLT, and start recirc between the MLT and cooler. Meanwhile sparge water would be heated in the BK. All first runnings would go to the cooler, the sparge water would be pumped into the MLT from the BK, recirculation performed until the wort is clear, and then the first runnings pumped over from cooler to BK while heating the second runnings boil.

I'm thinking about using this setup for 5 gallon batches of Imperial beers (over 1.065) where the grain savings would justify the extra 15 minutes required. For 10 gallon batches I will just do no sparge with a 15 gal kettle and do a 5 gallon partigyle batch with the second runnings.

I was trying to envision the process using only 2 vessels, a BK and a MLT. Instead of recirculating between MLT and an extra cooler during mash, I meant recirc from the MLT thru the RIMS and back to the MLT, with the RIMS just being an electric heater in a pipe type.
Then after mash is complete, have the BK added to the recirc and recirc the whole volume and after clear, just fill the BK. This would allow for a thicker mash.

EDIT: I'm not sure if this method would technically be considered a sparge. Maybe just an infusion at the end of the mash? I'm still new to AG.

Baron ken said:

I was trying to envision the process using only 2 vessels, a BK and a MLT. Instead of recirculating between MLT and an extra cooler during mash, I meant recirc from the MLT thru the RIMS and back to the MLT, with the RIMS just being an electric heater in a pipe type.
Then after mash is complete, have the BK added to the recirc and recirc the whole volume and after clear, just fill the BK. This would allow for a thicker mash.

EDIT: I'm not sure if this method would technically be considered a sparge. Maybe just an infusion at the end of the mash? I'm still new to AG.

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Oh yeah you could certainly do that too, although with two vessels it would still be no-sparge, so there isn't really any advantage.

Do you think an adjustable hot plate would work to maintain a desired heat level in the kettle during mash recirculation? This could eliminate the need to manually operate a propane flame periodically to maintain mash temp.

The burner could be used to heat the water initially, then a hot plate to automatically maintain the desired temp.

Saccharomyces said:

Oh yeah you could certainly do that too, although with two vessels it would still be no-sparge, so there isn't really any advantage.

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It would allow mashing at a lower water/grain ratio.

E.g. using 26 lbs grain, a 1.25 qts/lb ratio would need 8.125 gal of water to mash leaving 4.75 gal after absorption (using 0.13 gal/lb absorption = 3.38 gal), needing the other 7.75 gal in the BK (for a 12.5 gal pre-boil volume, 15.9 gal total water needed) which would be added to the recirc after mashing was done.

However, recircing the whole 15.9 gal for the mash would give a water/grain ratio of 2.45 qts/lb.

Not saying a >2 qts/lb ratio is bad, just saying that by using the method I described (with the RIMS), one could target different water/grain ratios as desired.

Baron ken said:

It would allow mashing at a lower water/grain ratio.

E.g. using 26 lbs grain, a 1.25 qts/lb ratio would need 8.125 gal of water to mash leaving 4.75 gal after absorption (using 0.13 gal/lb absorption = 3.38 gal), needing the other 7.75 gal in the BK (for a 12.5 gal pre-boil volume, 15.9 gal total water needed) which would be added to the recirc after mashing was done.

However, recircing the whole 15.9 gal for the mash would give a water/grain ratio of 2.45 qts/lb.

Not saying a >2 qts/lb ratio is bad, just saying that by using the method I described (with the RIMS), one could target different water/grain ratios as desired.

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My experience has been that anything under 1.5 qt/lb leads to incomplete conversion due to dough balls / difficulty stirring the mash. My efficiency jumped almost 10% when I started mashing thin, so I mash everything at 1.5 qt/lb or thinner regardless of whether I sparge or not. Even at 2.6 qt/lb, it converts amazingly fast and my mash efficiency ends up being 95-100%...

Soperbrew said:

The burner could be used to heat the water initially, then a hot plate to automatically maintain the desired temp.

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Hmm... I have one and didn't think about using it. I will give it a try next time!

Saccharomyces said:

My experience has been that anything under 1.5 qt/lb leads to incomplete conversion due to dough balls / difficulty stirring the mash. My efficiency jumped almost 10% when I started mashing thin, so I mash everything at 1.5 qt/lb or thinner regardless of whether I sparge or not. Even at 2.6 qt/lb, it converts amazingly fast and my mash efficiency ends up being 95-100%...

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I noticed this yesterday. Of the few AG batches I've done, they were all 1.25 qts/lb or less. Oct 18 I got 72% eff. @ 1.23 qts/lb and yesterday, Oct 25, I got 79% eff. @ 1.5 qts/lb.

I had never 'seen' a dough ball before yesterday's brew (yes, there were alot and I broke them up :cross, so I'm guessing that I probably just plain missed them when I was using a thicker mash.

I'm planning to get a pump and basically have the same set up as you except I'll be using a keggle for the BK (for 10 gal batches). Thanks for all the info.

EDIT: Actually, it will be mostly like your set up. I plan to chill, so I will be making a CFC/pump bucket ala JK's Countertop Brutus 20.

EDIT2: Did you ever get pics of the inside of your cooler and sparge arm?