Pitching on a cake - advice needed

Brewer's Friend 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
S

Sheldon

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Messages
1,208
Reaction score
54
Location
woodbridge, va
Need some guidance for first attempt (AG):
I am brewing a Cascade Pale Ale this weekend and was planning on pitching my next batch (Barleywine) on top of the CPA yeast cake in 2 weeks. I also plan on using a liquid yeast and starter to aid in the fermentatation of the Barleywine.

Is this the correct approach?

Would the new yeast cake (from the Barleywine) be re-useable or too stressed out.

Thanks for the sage advice. I have learned a lot from you more experienced home brewers.
 
sheeldon said:
Need some guidance for first attempt (AG):
I am brewing a Cascade Pale Ale this weekend and was planning on pitching my next batch (Barleywine) on top of the CPA yeast cake in 2 weeks. I also plan on using a liquid yeast and starter to aid in the fermentatation of the Barleywine.

Is this the correct approach?
Click to expand...

The correct approach is one that produces beer you enjoy. Technically you'll be "overpitching," i.e. using too much yeast, but this will just deprive you of some of the flavors characteristic to that yeast, and give a "cleaner" beer.

The extra liquid yeast might be overkill. Personally, I'd wash the yeast cake, and save some in a mason jar for bottling time, then just use the liquid yeast for your barleywine.

Would the new yeast cake (from the Barleywine) be re-useable or too stressed out.
Click to expand...

It'll be fine. Good rule of thumb is that you can use the same yeast cake 3-4 times without problems--I have the third consecutive batch of an IPA on the same yeast cake right now. YMMV.
 
I am suprised at the response. Thought I understood other postings on the topic. My barleywine OG is supposed to be 1.109 based on recipe. You think the 2 packs of S-04 will provide enough yeasties to properly ferment the barleywine? I have also read where folks have just pitched on top of a yeast cake in fermenter, is that not the proper method?
 
I think your confusion comes from looking for the "proper" method. That's going to get you in trouble. If you're looking for "the" answer you're going to be forced into the "right/wrong" false dichotomy when you hear conflicting advice. People do pitch on top of the yeast cake. I'm going to do it this weekend... just dump the new chilled wort onto the cake immediately after I rack off of it. Some much prefer, though, to wash that yeast first. It removes the trub and allows them better yeast quantity (pitch rate) control. Choose your weapon, but when you do, resist the temptation to defend it as the "proper" way! Good luck.
 
There are alot of ways to go here. I agree that the additional liquid yeast and starter for the Barleywine is not needed.

If it were me, I would simply dump the barleywine right on top of the yeast cake and be done with it. To me, the second biggest advantage of re-using the yeast cake (the first being plenty of fresh and ready to go yeast) is convenience. No new yeast, no new starter, and no need to clean a bucket between batches......but that's just me.

good luck

JR
 
Mr. Malty says you'd need about 200 mL of yeast slurry (or a 4 L starter) for a barelywine of that gravity. I'm guessing that there's more than that in a typical yeast cake--your first batch would be a 5-gal starter, so you'll definitely have enough non-stressed yeast in that cake.
 
You won't find a single 'proper' method.

Am I right to assume '2 packs of S-04' is what goes into the CPA and the liquid yeast is something else?

You only need to use one variety of yeast, so choose which is most suitable for the barley wine. If it is the yeast cake yeast, this is likely to be more than enough yeast to ferment the barley wine, since it would have reproduced to a much larger quantity whilst making the CPA. Pitching on top of the yeast cake will be fine (though perfectionists would recommend you take the yeast out and calculate how much you really need rather than 'risking' over-pitching, which probably wouldn't make much difference). If you choose the liquid yeast instead of the CPA yeast, you will need quite a large starter as the barleywine has such a high OG.
 
You folks are so awesome with your patience and responses. I am using 2 packs of S-04 for the CPA and using a sack to keep as much of the hops out of the trub/cake. I am going to take a chance and just pitch on top of the cake and hold off on the smack pack for a later batch.

The dude at the LHBS advised me to pitch a WLP099 just before bottling the Barleywine (Dominion Millenium clone). Is that the right thing to do? If so, do I need to make a starter with that or pitch directly into secondary?

Thanks again for clearing things up for me.

Sheldon
 
sheeldon said:
The dude at the LHBS advised me to pitch a WLP099 just before bottling the Barleywine (Dominion Millenium clone). Is that the right thing to do? If so, do I need to make a starter with that or pitch directly into secondary?
Click to expand...

Barleywines can take a while to finish fermenting--my last one spent 6 weeks in the primary, then I racked it to a secondary (bourboun-soaked oak chips and more yeast) to kick it down another 10 gravity points (over 2 more weeks) before bottling. Basically, by the time it's ready for bottling, all your yeast will have settled out, and you'll need to add more for carbonation. A starter shouldn't be necessary, you're not doing that much additional fermentation in the bottle.

A good bottling strain is Fermentis Safbrew T-58--it tolerates high alcohol, clears the beer quickly, and settles in to a rock-hard yeast ring in the bottom of the bottle. It's also one of the cheaper dry yeasts.
 
Stefin, you are right. OG is only 1.054. I must have typed in the wrong number when I put the info into Beersmith. Mr Malty verified your warning to me. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Since I am only now using 1 pack of S-04, would this change anything regarding pitching my barleywine onto the cake.

Still loving the bulk grains I got from you. Probably participate in next buy.

Sheldon
 
Beerchemist, I will keep that in mind. I have read about longer primary needs for barleywines. The recipe I had AHS send me only suggested 2 weeks, but I have learned from this forum. I have a couple of T-58's that I can use instead of buying the liquid yeast.
 
Commercial breweries pitch very specific amounts of yeast. That's a pretty strong vote for a "right way" to do things in my book.

If you don't feel comfortable going through the entire washing procedure, at least make an effort to dump, say, half of the yeast cake out.

I always post this in threads where people talk about pitching onto a cake: why go through all the trouble and nitpicking to develop the perfect grain bill, carefully timed and measured hop additions, mash temps and techniques that squeak out a couple extra points of efficiency, only to dump a fat yeast turd in your beer? Making wort is easy, making beer is done by the yeast - treat 'em with respect.
 
sheeldon said:
Stefin, you are right. OG is only 1.054. I must have typed in the wrong number when I put the info into Beersmith. Mr Malty verified your warning to me. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Since I am only now using 1 pack of S-04, would this change anything regarding pitching my barleywine onto the cake.

Still loving the bulk grains I got from you. Probably participate in next buy.

Sheldon
Click to expand...

the yeasties will multiply when they nom the sugars from the BPA so no, you dont need to up the barley wine. as its been pointed out, you will still be over pitching. that being said... so what? the difference wont be notable. and were not pros.

i regualry pitch onto yeast cakes. and i also frequently dump part of the cake first...but i doubt we would notice the difference otherwise.
 
We should be equally as obsessive about overpitching as underpitching. I'm just advocating that you get in the range. Overpitching by 5x is not great brewing practice.

Put it this way: people who win medals at the NHC are not doing any of these practices. I know that winning a medal isn't the end-all to declaring if your beer is good, but remember that their beers aren't just judged for their adherence to style. They also take into account the quality of the beer's production. Most of that has to do with sanitation and yeast management.

Not trying to come off as angry over this - just trying to be informative. If there's something I can do in my brewing that will give me a 1% chance of making a better beer, I'll do it without question.
 
sheeldon said:
Need some guidance for first attempt (AG):
I am brewing a Cascade Pale Ale this weekend and was planning on pitching my next batch (Barleywine) on top of the CPA yeast cake in 2 weeks. I also plan on using a liquid yeast and starter to aid in the fermentatation of the Barleywine.

Is this the correct approach?

Would the new yeast cake (from the Barleywine) be re-useable or too stressed out.

Thanks for the sage advice. I have learned a lot from you more experienced home brewers.
Click to expand...

Full disclosure: I'm a 1 year HBT follower and a 14 batch brewer. So FWIW...
I have a different suggestion on what I would do. First off, I'm cheap so I would only use 1 s-04 pack for tha PA. Forget the liquid yeast. When the ferment is done on the PA, I would boil and cool 1 gal. of water and add it to your yeast cake in the bucket. Shake it up and let settle for 20 minutes. Take an auto siphon and siphon off the peanut butterish stuff into that 1 gal. jar. You should be able to get almost the gallon you added. Cap the jar and let settle in the fridg. You should get a nice 1" layer of clean washed yeast in the bottom. When its time to brew the BW, decant, swirl, and pitch. I'd probably make a starter though. It might be more work than some of these other suggestions, but I love a good BW and it's worth the effort. IMO.

I'm with Kanzimonson on this. I wouldn't dump all of that old yeast and crap in a nice BW. Another idea would be to use a totally different yeast for the PA and save the 2 packs of S-04 for the BW. You have a lot of options and all of them will make beer. I just bottled a BW yesterday that used 2 pint jars of washed US05 and I had a good ferment. Just my $.02.
 
First I made a 1.070 IPA using a 2 liter Wyeast 1056 starter. 3 weeks later on the same day I transferred the IPA to secondary for dry hopping, I brewed the 1.123 barleywine & pitched directly on the entire yeast cake. It took off in a couple hours with krausen flowing steadily thru the blowoff tube. The hydrometer samples I've had along the way have tasted great! The barleywine has been aging for two weeks as of tomorrow with another 5-6 months to go.

If you're shooting for simplicity, this is the easiest method IMO.

Sent from my iPhone using HB Talk
 
wolverinebrewer said:
Full disclosure: I'm a 1 year HBT follower and a 14 batch brewer. So FWIW...
I have a different suggestion on what I would do. First off, I'm cheap so I would only use 1 s-04 pack for tha PA. Forget the liquid yeast. When the ferment is done on the PA, I would boil and cool 1 gal. of water and add it to your yeast cake in the bucket. Shake it up and let settle for 20 minutes. Take an auto siphon and siphon off the peanut butterish stuff into that 1 gal. jar. You should be able to get almost the gallon you added. Cap the jar and let settle in the fridg. You should get a nice 1" layer of clean washed yeast in the bottom. When its time to brew the BW, decant, swirl, and pitch. I'd probably make a starter though. It might be more work than some of these other suggestions, but I love a good BW and it's worth the effort. IMO.

I'm with Kanzimonson on this. I wouldn't dump all of that old yeast and crap in a nice BW. Another idea would be to use a totally different yeast for the PA and save the 2 packs of S-04 for the BW. You have a lot of options and all of them will make beer. I just bottled a BW yesterday that used 2 pint jars of washed US05 and I had a good ferment. Just my $.02.
Click to expand...

yep, this is what you should do, but as Kaz said 1% maybe improvement, its just not worth the effort. but to each his own.
 
claphamsa said:
yep, this is what you should do, but as Kaz said 1% maybe improvement, its just not worth the effort. but to each his own.
Click to expand...

I think he meant for any brewing activity in general that would improve it by 1% he would do. I don't think it was for this particular one.
 
wolverinebrewer said:
I think he meant for any brewing activity in general that would improve it by 1% he would do. I don't think it was for this particular one.
Click to expand...

You're right.

Here's my personal example: in my early days of homebrewing, I wanted to brew an American barleywine. So I made an American wheat first and my plan was to pitch on the entire cake from this beer. I also didn't know much about yeast alcohol tolerance, so I selected a strain almost purely based on this stat. What did I end up with? Wyeast 1762, Belgian Abbey II... for an American barleywine.

So I did exactly what I planned for - dumped that whole batch onto a giant yeast cake. Fermentation was active within an hour, which is one of those things that new brewers love to see, but is definitely not a good indication of proper cell reproduction in your wort. So you would think that using this particular Trappist strain meant that I ended up with a super fruity and phenolic barleywine that's totally out of style. Well actually, it has practically NO esters and ZERO phenols. Why? Because I estimate that I overpitched by 5-7 times. Never again.

In this case, had I not been a doofus I could have pitched the proper amount (and the right strain), and improved my beer by, what, 1000%? Live and learn. (And pass on to new brewers!)
 
kanzimonson said:
You're right.

Here's my personal example: in my early days of homebrewing, I wanted to brew an American barleywine. So I made an American wheat first and my plan was to pitch on the entire cake from this beer. I also didn't know much about yeast alcohol tolerance, so I selected a strain almost purely based on this stat. What did I end up with? Wyeast 1762, Belgian Abbey II... for an American barleywine.

So I did exactly what I planned for - dumped that whole batch onto a giant yeast cake. Fermentation was active within an hour, which is one of those things that new brewers love to see, but is definitely not a good indication of proper cell reproduction in your wort. So you would think that using this particular Trappist strain meant that I ended up with a super fruity and phenolic barleywine that's totally out of style. Well actually, it has practically NO esters and ZERO phenols. Why? Because I estimate that I overpitched by 5-7 times. Never again.

In this case, had I not been a doofus I could have pitched the proper amount (and the right strain), and improved my beer by, what, 1000%? Live and learn. (And pass on to new brewers!)
Click to expand...

So the lesson here is always make an even number of errors, so they cancel each other out?
 
kanzimonson said:
You're right.

Here's my personal example: in my early days of homebrewing, I wanted to brew an American barleywine. So I made an American wheat first and my plan was to pitch on the entire cake from this beer. I also didn't know much about yeast alcohol tolerance, so I selected a strain almost purely based on this stat. What did I end up with? Wyeast 1762, Belgian Abbey II... for an American barleywine.

So I did exactly what I planned for - dumped that whole batch onto a giant yeast cake. Fermentation was active within an hour, which is one of those things that new brewers love to see, but is definitely not a good indication of proper cell reproduction in your wort. So you would think that using this particular Trappist strain meant that I ended up with a super fruity and phenolic barleywine that's totally out of style. Well actually, it has practically NO esters and ZERO phenols. Why? Because I estimate that I overpitched by 5-7 times. Never again.

In this case, had I not been a doofus I could have pitched the proper amount (and the right strain), and improved my beer by, what, 1000%? Live and learn. (And pass on to new brewers!)
Click to expand...

Ok, so as a sorta new brewer, what's the right answer or best practice?
 
More than anything I'd say don't overstep your comfort zone by too much or you'll be more likely to make mistakes. Learning to harvest yeast, wash cakes, and make starters are easy once you know how but I can attest that they seem like huge barriers when you're starting out.

So my advice is to strive towards these advanced techniques, but if the best you can do is pitching onto a yeast cake, so be it. At the very least, calculate how much slurry you need with Mr Malty, and then eyeball it. Dump out what you don't need. That's not that much harder than pitching onto the whole cake. Just know that there are better techniques out there.

The yeast cake discussion always comes down to this:

1) Commercial breweries and brewing scientists pretty well agree upon some ideal pitching rates.
2) People on HBT dump onto yeast cakes and say, "it worked for me!"

Which do you trust? You'll make beer either way. Will you risk problems, and risk going against the advice of pros just because it's slightly easier?
 
kanzimonson said:
More than anything I'd say don't overstep your comfort zone by too much or you'll be more likely to make mistakes. Learning to harvest yeast, wash cakes, and make starters are easy once you know how but I can attest that they seem like huge barriers when you're starting out.

So my advice is to strive towards these advanced techniques, but if the best you can do is pitching onto a yeast cake, so be it. At the very least, calculate how much slurry you need with Mr Malty, and then eyeball it. Dump out what you don't need. That's not that much harder than pitching onto the whole cake. Just know that there are better techniques out there.

The yeast cake discussion always comes down to this:

1) Commercial breweries and brewing scientists pretty well agree upon some ideal pitching rates.
2) People on HBT dump onto yeast cakes and say, "it worked for me!"Which do you trust? You'll make beer either way. Will you risk problems, and risk going against the advice of pros just because it's slightly easier?
Click to expand...

Exactly. It's the same as asking someone how often should I go to the dentist? Many will give you the best answer and say every 6 months. While many will say "I go every 3 years and I don't have any problems (meaning no pain). Neither really are wrong, but one answer is much better.
Or I change the oil in my car every 20,000 miles and I still get to work. :D
 
I just wish when an OP is asking for advice on a procedure they would get the best advice and not just an answer on something that worked once. At least thats what I want for my questions. Maybe I'm different though. *shrugs*
 
kanzimonson said:
Commercial breweries pitch very specific amounts of yeast. That's a pretty strong vote for a "right way" to do things in my book.

If you don't feel comfortable going through the entire washing procedure, at least make an effort to dump, say, half of the yeast cake out.

I always post this in threads where people talk about pitching onto a cake: why go through all the trouble and nitpicking to develop the perfect grain bill, carefully timed and measured hop additions, mash temps and techniques that squeak out a couple extra points of efficiency, only to dump a fat yeast turd in your beer? Making wort is easy, making beer is done by the yeast - treat 'em with respect.
Click to expand...

Amen!
 
wolverinebrewer said:
I just wish when an OP is asking for advice on a procedure they would get the best advice and not just an answer on something that worked once. At least thats what I want for my questions. Maybe I'm different though. *shrugs*
Click to expand...

i think he got great answers... there is a best way, and it was given, and the alternate opinion of yes, that was the best way, but its not worth the effort was also given.
 
wolverinebrewer said:
I just wish when an OP is asking for advice on a procedure they would get the best advice and not just an answer on something that worked once. At least thats what I want for my questions. Maybe I'm different though. *shrugs*
Click to expand...

You are expecting too much though- the majority of answers you are going to get are opinion. You will hear 20 different answers when you ask a question and to the person answering it for you it is their "best advice".
 
claphamsa said:
i think he got great answers... there is a best way, and it was given, and the alternate opinion of yes, that was the best way, but its not worth the effort was also given.
Click to expand...

I would agree that the OP got great answers. But answers were all over the board. No consensus, just multiple opinions. So, if I was a new brewer asking this, I would still not know the best way just that there are many ways.

I like this forum and it has hundreds of years of brewing experience behind the responses. But when I read on new topics, there are many times when I come away still being confused with what to do about a certain issue. And I think its because sometimes there is not a consensus. I just like having a majority opinion. That's all.
 
There's an important difference between offering suggestions for improved process and calling out someone's process as unacceptable. It's awfully tempting in any pursuit to fall into the "right/wrong" dichotomy when it really doesn't apply. Offer suggestions for improvement. Of course. Offer information. But don't tell someone their dumping on a yeast cake is unacceptable because there are better practices, or using extract is unacceptable because there are better practices, or using dry yeast is unacceptable because there are better practices, or using 5.2 buffer is unacceptable because there are better practices, or regulating your Ranco or Johnson controller with the bulb in the freezer is unacceptable because there are better practices (a bulb), or.... there are many types of home brewers, with many types of personalities, capabilities and objectives. There is a vast array of practices all of which are 'acceptable' depending upon those personalities, capabilities and objectives. Make suggestions, offer information, and those who are inclined will embrace them. Those who aren't needn't be told that their pursuit of their hobby is wrong.
 
the correct answer is to wash it and pitch the correct amount :)

but its not really gonna make a big enough difference to be worth the trouble.

hope that clears it up.
 
I made two batches with the 'pitch on the entire yeast cake' method and they both turned out badly. I made beer - but it was beer that tasted bad.

Then I read a post on here by Brewer Bob - he outlined how to reuse yeast in a super easy way. I have followed his yeast harvesting method about 10 times and I get great tasting beer every time. This is what I do - rack a finished beer off the yeast, swirl the remaining beer and yeast together, pour off 2 cups of yeast into a sanitzed jar, refrigerate, reuse within seven days. Typically I will only reuse 1 cup of the collected yeast but I collect 2 cups just in case.
 
juslod said:
You are expecting too much though- the majority of answers you are going to get are opinion. You will hear 20 different answers when you ask a question and to the person answering it for you it is their "best advice".
Click to expand...

Maybe I am expecting too much. That's me. I have very very high expectations. The reason I am on this forum and not some of the others that I have visited is that my expectations seem to be much more satisfied here because of the respect I have for the brewing knowledge that is here and that you all are willing to give it out. This forum is addicting and has helped me make beer better than I have ever would have imagined. So thumbs up to all of you. I just wish that when I ask how often I should go get my teeth cleaned, The answers would be 9 votes for every six months and only 1 for every 3 years. Instead, many times I get 3 votes for every six months, 3 votes for every three years and 4 votes for what is a dentist? :D
 
Pilgarlic said:
There's an important difference between offering suggestions for improved process and calling out someone's process as unacceptable. It's awfully tempting in any pursuit to fall into the "right/wrong" dichotomy when it really doesn't apply. Offer suggestions for improvement. Of course. Offer information. But don't tell someone their dumping on a yeast cake is unacceptable because there are better practices, or using extract is unacceptable because there are better practices, or using dry yeast is unacceptable because there are better practices, or using 5.2 buffer is unacceptable because there are better practices, or regulating your Ranco or Johnson controller with the bulb in the freezer is unacceptable because there are better practices (a bulb), or.... there are many types of home brewers, with many types of personalities, capabilities and objectives. There is a vast array of practices all of which are 'acceptable' depending upon those personalities, capabilities and objectives. Make suggestions, offer information, and those who are inclined will embrace them. Those who aren't needn't be told that their pursuit of their hobby is wrong.
Click to expand...

I would agree. I don't think anyone here used the word unacceptable or right or wrong.
 

Similar threads

B
The Starting Gravity That Got Away
Replies
1
Views
527
Broken Crow
Broken Crow
Climb
Seeking advice on Brettanomyces
Replies
5
Views
686
Climb
Climb
Collin Evans
Fermentation Lag
Replies
5
Views
294
sibelman
sibelman
G
Fermentis BR-8 dry Brettanomyces Experiences
2
Replies
62
Views
7K
Miraculix
Miraculix
D
Cider nutrient conundrum. Asking others about their experience(s) with nutrients in the cider process.
Replies
8
Views
897
Crapple
Crapple
Brewer's Friend 300

Latest posts

Back
Top