need help adjusting mash ph with Bru n water

Alright so hoping to brew an IPA today. Working on water. Using 100% RO. Right now CA is 75
MG 15.6
NA 28
SO 85
CL 150
These are values following the Hill Farmstead thread that is chasing a softer mouthfeel.
I use a system kinda compared to the brew easy so full volume mashing recirculating between two kettles. With this profile my mash ph is 5.5 obviously some sort of acid malt or lactic is needed. I can get it to 5.4 with lactic but my bicarbonate drops from 16 to -7. Everyone seems to be using at least 16 or even higher. I also tried to use acid malt but any oz addition up to 1 pound did nothing and 1 pound brought ph down to 5.1 so no go. Wondering what affect the low Bicarbonate would have for this style we are working for.? Also my alkalinity is down to -6. Is that two low?

gotbags-10 said:

Alright so hoping to brew an IPA today. Working on water. Using 100% RO. Right now CA is 75
MG 15.6
NA 28
SO 85
CL 150
These are values following the Hill Farmstead thread that is chasing a softer mouthfeel.
I use a system kinda compared to the brew easy so full volume mashing recirculating between two kettles. With this profile my mash ph is 5.5 obviously some sort of acid malt or lactic is needed. I can get it to 5.4 with lactic but my bicarbonate drops from 16 to -7. Everyone seems to be using at least 16 or even higher. I also tried to use acid malt but any oz addition up to 1 pound did nothing and 1 pound brought ph down to 5.1 so no go. Wondering what affect the low Bicarbonate would have for this style we are working for.? Also my alkalinity is down to -6. Is that two low?

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You can do two different mineral additions for a beer, one to get the pH in range, and one during the boil, if you are that worried about bicarbonate and it is affecting your mash. I wouldn't worry too much about bicarbonate, that will bring your pH and alkalinity up. It would make it harder for your grains to get in the range, which is what you are finding. Your bicarbonate numbers are only doing the pH stuff, the mineral carbonate is still in there.

I think you are doing a lot to get it from 5.5 to 5.4. Just have a pH meter handy and add some acid if you aren't in the range exactly would be my 2 cents.

gotbags-10 said:

I can get it to 5.4 with lactic but my bicarbonate drops from 16 to -7. Everyone seems to be using at least 16 or even higher.

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Those numbers are not bicarbonate numbers but rather Brun Water's silly way of accounting for proton deficit relative to some unknown (to me anyway) pH. Ignore them. What counts is that your mash settles at the desired pH (at which pH the proton deficit is 0 mEq).

gotbags-10 said:

I also tried to use acid malt but any oz addition up to 1 pound did nothing and 1 pound brought ph down to 5.1 so no go.

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Impossible. If your mash pH is 5.4 with no sauermalz and 5.1 with a pound it is about 5.35 with half a pound. You aren't grinding it fine enough or mixing it in well enough or are measuring the pH incorrectly. There is no 'threshold' effect here.

gotbags-10 said:

Wondering what affect the low Bicarbonate would have for this style we are working for.?

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As noted above this isn't bicarbonate. Ignore it.

gotbags-10 said:

Also my alkalinity is down to -6. Is that two low?

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Also note that 61*-6/50 = -7.32 IOW this is the approximation most of the spreadsheets use to calculate bicarbonate from alkalinity (which is amusing in cases like this one where there isn't any bicarbonate) so alkalinity is just another way of telling you the same thing as that your 'bicarbonate' is -7 which is equally useless information unless you are told alkalinity with starting and ending pH's. Alkalinity at your realized pH, relative to each mash component's intrinsic pH is 0. It is a measure of proton deficit.

mbobhat said:

I think you are doing a lot to get it from 5.5 to 5.4. Just have a pH meter handy and add some acid if you aren't in the range exactly would be my 2 cents.

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How soon after dough-in to measure pH, and then how long after adding acid to remeasure?

The answer is the same in both cases. Take a measurement after either strike or acid addition (after a thorough mixing) as soon as you can cool a sample and then continue to take measurements. pH changes for about half an hour but with some practice you should be able to tell where it is going to land from a 10 or 15 minute reading.

ajdelange said:

The answer is the same in both cases. Take a measurement after either strike or acid addition (after a thorough mixing) as soon as you can cool a sample and then continue to take measurements. pH changes for about half an hour but with some practice you should be able to tell where it is going to land from a 10 or 15 minute reading.

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I have been checking in the beginning after dough-in and then at the end when I do the first runnings as I keep things buttoned up to hold the temp(cooler mashtun). I know there can be a gravity difference from top to bottom, but for pH can you sneak a sample from the bottom using the ball value or is it best to stir things up and take it from the top?

I only recently started checking so my sample size is small but I have not seen a big difference if any in the start and finish reading. I was expecting the pH to drop a bit.

During the dough in the mash should be mixed thoroughly and it is well to keep it well mixed throughout the process. If you don't the grain tends to go to the bottom and the liquid to the top so the reacting (conversion of starch to sugar, lysis of proteins, acid/base reactions will take place more at the bottom of the tun than the top. In such a case I would expect that there could be a pH difference between top and bottom samples. Stir thoroughly before a sample if you can.

There is usually a pH change of a couple of tenths of a pH unit over the course of the mash and the direction depends on whether acid or acid malt has been added as opposed to alkali in some form. Whatever you added is in the liquid (or in the case of acid malt washes into the liquid rapidly). Thus if you add acid the liquid initially reads low in pH and the pH rises as the acid is absorbed by the grains. The converse is true if you have added base.