Feedback on a Rye and Wheat Saison

I'm looking into brewing a Saison that should be quite spicy, dry, but also smooth. I want to try a combination of rye and wheat, as I love me a rye saison and I love me a wheat beer. Of course, that doesn't mean combining the two is a good idea, hence the post!

Has anyone brewed something similar?

I'm thinking something like this for a mash. Temp at 152-154 somewhere.
55% pils
20% rye malt
20% wheat malt
5% flaked oats
rice hulls

Not sure about hops yet, I have some Perle, Saaz, Liberty, Tettnanger, and Hersbrucker. I'm considering adding some star anis, coriander seeds, and orange peel for an added complexity, but not sure if this belongs in a first brew of the recipe.

I'll be using Wyeast 3724 and ferment at around 80, which is ambient right now. I'll do my damndest to aerate and give the yeast the suplements it needs, but if it still stalls I have a package of 3711 I can finish things off with.

So for a 20L batch I have:

2.5 kg Pils (51.5%)
1.0 kg Rye Malt (20.6%)
1.0 kg Wheat Malt (20.6%)
200 gr Oats (4.1%)
150 gr Dark Candi (3.1%)

10 gr Perle @60 (10 IBU)
20 gr Liberty @20 (7 IBU)
20 gr Saaz @20 (6 IBU)

Mash at 152, 90 minute boil.

1.050 OG
23 IBU
23 EBC

I'm hoping it will ferment out below 1.010. I'll pitch big, aerate plenty, add the sugar after high krausen, ferment warm, and stir up the yeast if needed.

mash lower...like 148.

i'm brewing a saison with a similar grainbill tomorrow.

pilsner 65%
rye 15%
white wheat 10%
flaked oats 10%

I'd also recommend mashing at 150 or lower. Great recipe though. Good to keep out the specialty malts and use lots of adjuncts. For my saisons, I stick them in a big rope tube from home depot filled with water. I have a 100W aquarium heater that keeps the water around 90F. 24hrs after fermentation starts, I'll stick it in there for 2 weeks and it really brings out the best in the saison yeast. No off flavors from ramping so high so quickly

I'm absolutely obsessed with saisons. I've done 4 or 5 rye ones. I've found 3711 seems to be my favorite to compliment the spicy rye flavor. But now I just use a blend of 3711, 3724 and WLP566 for most of my saisons. Recently, I got to use the fantome strain and it was pretty good, might have to add that to the mix.

Agreed with mashing lower. I'd also drop the dark candi, personally.

I've brewed several similar variations, usually 70% pils, with the rest being some combo of wheat/rye/oats, depending on mood. I think 70% pils/15% rye/15% wheat has been my favorite.

Oh and for hops, any of those will work great. Saisons are the most highly hopped Belgian style. but they still dont come close to IPAs (traditionally). I;ve found you can either use a few oz of any noble hop to let the yeast take center stage, or you can hop the absolute S$%& out of it and make it an Saison/IPA. Spicy or fruity hops seems to work best. Last one I did used 8oz of a new experimental hops called Pekko. Its listed as spicy with a bit of pineapple and sage

I like coriander and grains of paradise in some of my saisons, especially rye ones. The spices accentuate the rye character. Orange peel would depend on the hops you use. If you use a citrusy hop then go for it. I would keep the sugar though, I've only made 2 or 3 saisons without any simple sugars, but I like to get them as dry as possible

Cheers for all the suggestions guys, much appreciated.

My thinking for mashing so high was based on 3711, which always ferments out for me no matter what I do to it. This will be my first brew with 3724, so yeah, will mash lower.

For the sugar, the reason is three-fold:

1. Dry it out
2. Help 3724 not stall
3. Bring a bit of color

I'm hoping to brew this next weekend. On Thursday thereafter I head out of town for 10 days, so I plan to drop the sugar in the morning and just leave the carboy in the filled tub. Ferm chamber will be busy with an IPA.

Should I drop the wheat and rye a bit to 15% each? Seems like that's where you guys are at with your recipies? The best beer I've brewed so far was a Saison with 25% rye (How Rye am I), but perhaps with the wheat as well it gets over the top?

I dont see any reason to drop the rye or wheat unless you are concerned with a stuck sparge. I think itll turn out great with that much adjuncts

I did a saison last summer with almost your exact grainbill, except all my adjuncts were unmalted. I used magnum to bitter to 25 IBUs and a couple of late hallertau additions. Big difference is I used wlp 565. I mashed at 150 & ended up at 1.006.

It came out excellent. The nobles work well with the yeast & rye. It had a really nice white head and a great spicy flavor.

Im looking forward to rebrewing in a couple of weeks when I can count on some higher temps.

joyceman said:

I did a saison last summer with almost your exact grainbill, except all my adjuncts were unmalted. I used magnum to bitter to 25 IBUs and a couple of late hallertau additions. Big difference is I used wlp 565. I mashed at 150 & ended up at 1.006.

It came out excellent. The nobles work well with the yeast & rye. It had a really nice white head and a great spicy flavor.

Im looking forward to rebrewing in a couple of weeks when I can count on some higher temps.

Click to expand...

If you are using the hot weather to bump up fermentation temps, be careful. If you get it hot in the sun during the day, you need to be able to uphold that temperature during the night. If it swings up and down, you will get very nasty off flavors from the yeast

m00ps said:

If you are using the hot weather to bump up fermentation temps, be careful. If you get it hot in the sun during the day, you need to be able to uphold that temperature during the night. If it swings up and down, you will get very nasty off flavors from the yeast

Click to expand...

Ive got a closet that holds a pretty steady 80 or so in the summer, bad ducting.

Got everything ready to brew this today after work. Was gonna brew yesterday, but a beer festival on Saturday was exceeding expectations...

Been checking the bathroom temps and it swings from 78 to 80, so with the bathtub as a buffer it should be very stable. Not being able to ramp up as fermentation slows down thou, should I put it in the fermentation chamber when I get back for an elevated d-rest?

Not sure about the level of spice. I'm thinking one Star Anise (roughly 1gr), 10 gr of Coriander. Both lightly crushed, not pulverized. I just want a hint of it in the background.

Since I'm leaving Thursday morning I decided I might as well throw in the sugar now. Went 50/50 between Dark candi and table to keep it a bit lighter as well.

Completely forgot the coriander and star anise thou. Measured it out last night with the rest of the ingredients, but totally missed the small cup. No worries thou, nice and simple make a good baseline.

Yeast did smell a bit funky out of the starter however. Dunno how 3724 is supposed to smell thou, so it's probably fine.

So after two weeks this is now down to about 1.009 to 1.010, from 1.053.

Beersmith predicts it to go to 1.007. It's been fermenting at ambient 80F in a water bath, but now when I'm back in town I'm gonna need the AC.

What do you guys think, should I throw my Sous vide cooker into the water bath and raise it to 90F for a week and see if it has some ways to go still?

Edit: water bath is my 50L BK, so the sous vide cooker should be able to handle it without issues.

Three weeks fermenting in total now, at 1.008 SG. Detected no off flavors, so I think I'll crash it this week.

Quite a distinct flavor of staranise. Ended up using 1 gram of staranise and 10 grams of coriander, soaked half an hour in vodka, on second day of fermentation. Think I should have skipped it...

So today I finally got to taste this beer. I crashed it the day after the last post, but a family emergency had me on a flight the next day and I just got back last week.

I didn't see a reason to keep the beer at 32F for so long, so I asked a room-mate to unplug the stc-1000 and just use the regular fridge at like a middle setting for 50F or so. Well, he forgot to change the setting, so I got back to frozen beer.

RDWHAHB! Thawed it slowly over almost a week, kegged and forced it up to 40psi two days ago. FG at 1.006.

It's very light in color, straw-like. Glad I used some dark candi. Cream-like head, thick and lacing. Spicy on the nose, can't really detect the star anise anymore. Some of that typical saison yeasty-character as well.

More of the same once you take a mouthfull. There's a hint of the star anise now, and you can feel it afterwards. Not sure what that sensation is that you get from licorice and such, but it's there.

All in all I'm very happy with it! I would love to still have the last rye saison I made on hand, as it used to be my favorite beer. It's hard to say if I like this one better, but it's crystal clear that rye saisons is where it's at for me!

Time for the next generation of this. Considering dropping the dark candi and add a pound of Special B for color and some complexity. Add some honey to dry it out instead of sugar. Simplify hops a bit.

Thoughts? I love me some Special B, not sure how it will fly in a Saison.

Here's what I have:

20 Gallons

Mash at 149-150
1.055 - 1.060 OG
~30 IBU

22# Pilsner malt (50%)
9# Rye malt (20%)
9# Wheat malt (20%)
2# Flaked oats (5%)
1# Special B (2.5%)
1-2# Honey when fermenatation slows down (2.5%)

2 ounces Perle @ 60
3 ounces Perle @ 20
4 ounces Perle @ 05

Kinda like the lingering mouthfeel of the star anise, may keep that. Also may add a bit more coriander.

I like special B but find it doesnt fit into things like saisons. IME you dont want any assertive malt character in a saison unless you are making like a dark saison, and even then the yeast character is muted. If you want some kind of interesting malts, you could try some vienna, munich, or a bit of honey or aromatic malt. The special B will take away from the dry refreshing character