Electric brewery plans - need help

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WAORGANY said:
Hey man I hope all is well....working on my build more now and was wondering if you have had any issues with heat in your box? I am planning on mounting my SSR's and heat sinks similar to yours.
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No issues yet. I have not done back to back brew sessions, nor do I plan to. I have stuck my hand in the box after a brew day (unplugged of course!) and it was warm, but not hot. I would think that with the size of the enclosure and the heat sinks, there isn't much risk of overheating.

I was also curious on how you cut the holes for your PID's and 110 outlets for the pumps? Thanks in advance.
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With a CNC end mill!

I realize that isn't a tool that everybody has access to, so you might want to ask what others have done. Or, you could find a machinist who appreciates good homebrew and ask a favor.

Good luck with your build!
 
Tiber_Brew said:
No issues yet. I have not done back to back brew sessions, nor do I plan to. I have stuck my hand in the box after a brew day (unplugged of course!) and it was warm, but not hot. I would think that with the size of the enclosure and the heat sinks, there isn't much risk of overheating.

With a CNC end mill!

I realize that isn't a tool that everybody has access to, so you might want to ask what others have done. Or, you could find a machinist who appreciates good homebrew and ask a favor.

Good luck with your build!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info, hope all is well and that before too long I will also be brewing on my new system!
 
Well I think I have my layout planned and figured out for the front and inside of the control box. What do you think? I used a sheet of cardboard cut down the same size of the front door of the panel 11.5" x15.5" I have attached a few pictures. Still need some blocks and fuses for the inside and then I think I can cut the holes in the panel and start wiring!

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image-561348134.jpg
 
WAORGANY said:
Well I think I have my layout planned and figured out for the front and inside of the control box. What do you think? I used a sheet of cardboard cut down the same size of the front door of the panel 11.5" x15.5" I have attached a few pictures. Still need some blocks and fuses for the inside and then I think I can cut the holes in the panel and start wiring!
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Looks like a good layout. Those Greenlee punches will make easy work out cutting the holes. The square cutouts for the PIDs, on the other hand, won't be easy. Have you found a way to cut those out yet?
 
Tiber_Brew said:
Looks like a good layout. Those Greenlee punches will make easy work out cutting the holes. The square cutouts for the PIDs, on the other hand, won't be easy. Have you found a way to cut those out yet?
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Yeah not yet, I am going to see if I can find a section of scarp sheet metal and try either the Deremel or Rotzip and see how I can get them to cut straight. I have a buddy who has alot of metal working tools he might have a highspeed way to cut them out as well, need to check, thanks.
 
quick question, and i guess this goes to all who biuld these panels using a recp. to plug them in to a wall outlet.. i really dont see the point in a e stop.. cant you and everyone else just simply unplug the entire control unit, that ensures no power to the panel completly.. i dont know just a thought and mine will have one since i am going to be hardwired all the way in. but this is only something that i have thought about for a while now.. if someone can tell me a good reason why the are nec. im all ears since im about to be cutting my control panel this week.
 
dcarroll86 said:
quick question, and i guess this goes to all who biuld these panels using a recp. to plug them in to a wall outlet.. i really dont see the point in a e stop.. cant you and everyone else just simply unplug the entire control unit, that ensures no power to the panel completly.. i dont know just a thought and mine will have one since i am going to be hardwired all the way in. but this is only something that i have thought about for a while now.. if someone can tell me a good reason why the are nec. im all ears since im about to be cutting my control panel this week.
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I can think of a few reasons:
-Pulling a live plug is not really a good idea anytime
-Cord from socket to panel might have been damaged (this is the only time the GFCI trip method of E-stop makes sense to me... but still not really.)
-Socket may be metres away from the panel/brewery

By the way I have never liked the method of purposefully leaking some current to ground to trip the GFCI as a E-stop, it just seems wrong to me to count of something that should be a last-point-of-protection to stop you system.
 
dcarroll86 said:
quick question, and i guess this goes to all who biuld these panels using a recp. to plug them in to a wall outlet.. i really dont see the point in a e stop.. cant you and everyone else just simply unplug the entire control unit, that ensures no power to the panel completly.. i dont know just a thought and mine will have one since i am going to be hardwired all the way in. but this is only something that i have thought about for a while now.. if someone can tell me a good reason why the are nec. im all ears since im about to be cutting my control panel this week.
Click to expand...

mattd2 said:
I can think of a few reasons:
-Pulling a live plug is not really a good idea anytime
-Cord from socket to panel might have been damaged (this is the only time the GFCI trip method of E-stop makes sense to me... but still not really.)
-Socket may be metres away from the panel/brewery
Click to expand...

Those are some good reasons. Also:

240V plugs have some significant insertion/extraction force. Unplugging one is nowhere near as quick, concise, and effortless as hitting a large brightly colored button. An emergency power off switch is also something that a friend or acquaintance can find easily if necessary, e.g. "hit the big red/yellow/whatever button for me! Quick!"

By the way I have never liked the method of purposefully leaking some current to ground to trip the GFCI as a E-stop, it just seems wrong to me to count of something that should be a last-point-of-protection to stop you system.
Click to expand...

That's fine. It's not like I use that to shut down the panel after every brew session. I'll test it maybe two or three times a year, but it's completely harmless. It's simply not enough current to damage the GFCI function.

Let me ask you something: do you ever press the "test" button on your GFCI outlet in your bathroom or kitchen? Does pressing that make you less confident in your ground fault protection?

However, if you, or anyone you're helping out are not comfortable with this solution, that's fine. It's a little outside the box, and I wouldn't blame anyone for feeling skeptical about implementing it for themselves.

TB
 
Tiber_Brew said:
That's fine. It's not like I use that to shut down the panel after every brew session. I'll test it maybe two or three times a year, but it's completely harmless. It's simply not enough current to damage the GFCI function.

Let me ask you something: do you ever press the "test" button on your GFCI outlet in your bathroom or kitchen? Does pressing that make you less confident in your ground fault protection?

However, if you, or anyone you're helping out are not comfortable with this solution, that's fine. It's a little outside the box, and I wouldn't blame anyone for feeling skeptical about implementing it for themselves.

TB
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it won't work or will damage equipment or is a bad way to do it just that those that do it this way should know its limitations, i.e. you are relying on a safety system used for a different purpose to cut power to your brewery when you decided to use the E-stop.

I know it is basically replicating the test button on the GFCI breaker and will not damage the breaker. Pressing the test button makes me 100% confident that my GFCI is working... at that moment in time. I was more thinking about those that have never tested their GFCI and never do it regularly. My worry is more that you are counting on something to work that could possibly not be working (that's why they have the test buttons after all :D).
If it was me doing it this way I would be testing the GFCI before each and every brewday (but then again it is probably a good idea to do this anyway not matter how you wire your E-stop).
 
mattd2 said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it won't work or will damage equipment or is a bad way to do it just that those that do it this way should know its limitations, i.e. you are relying on a safety system used for a different purpose to cut power to your brewery when you decided to use the E-stop.
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I'm sorry, but I fail to see a limitation here. Explain, perhaps, the limitations of this system based on the use of GFCI.

I know it is basically replicating the test button on the GFCI breaker and will not damage the breaker. Pressing the test button makes me 100% confident that my GFCI is working... at that moment in time. I was more thinking about those that have never tested their GFCI and never do it regularly.
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Don't you think that perhaps someone who designs the safety function of the GFCI into their system would test it? ;)

My worry is more that you are counting on something to work that could possibly not be working (that's why they have the test buttons after all :D).
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So, if you trust the test button on your GFCI outlet in your bathroom to indicate 100% dependability, explain to me why testing your GFCI E-stop is any different or worse indication. I know it works; I've tested it before. I put my life on it. I understand how it works, and I know that it will work if/when I need it to. If you want to split hairs, any EPO can fail for some reason or another. What realistic probabilities are you assuming here?

If it was me doing it this way I would be testing the GFCI before each and every brewday (but then again it is probably a good idea to do this anyway not matter how you wire your E-stop).
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Sure, but maybe not every time. Testing periodically is a good idea, but this isn't a mechanical switch that sees a lot of use or is exposed to the elements, etc. If it worked two, three, four months ago, I trust it works right now. I will wager any amount of money that if I were to go downstairs right now and test it, it would work perfectly. :D

It's no skin off my back if I don't have your approval, so don't take this the wrong way. I totally understand skepticism. However, when you think about it, it really is safe, and it really is dependable. I wouldn't trust my life with it otherwise.

Cheers,
TB
 
Any chance you recall where you got those stainless/glass brew lid tops from? I need to get 3 of them and their size looks perfect for my set-up! TIA,

Kurly


Tiber_Brew said:
Thanks for keeping me honest, Gabrew.

Indeed, I have the pictures now. I've been posting from my phone lately since I've been pretty busy with other stuff.

I don't have pictures of me making this, but I did cut out and bend up some galvanized steel to protect the pumps. I might end up painting this thing down the road, but for now it will certainly do the trick:
DSC00331.jpg


I also hacked up my chiller. I shortened it to about 25-30 ft.
DSC00332.jpg


Of course, I was drinking some of the good stuff from my taps while working on the rig. Recipe for this one can be found in the database if you're interested (or click "recipes" under my avatar).
DSC00333.jpg


I also soldered together a sparge arm. Simple, but works very well (more about that later):
DSC00338.jpg


I put together a sort of globe valve setup for the cooling water input on the chiller. Prevents me from having to run back and forth from the rig to the water supply:
DSC00340.jpg


I picked up some stainless lids with glass that fit my keggles perfectly. They were cheap, too.
DSC00348.jpg


Then I calibrated the sight tubes:
DSC00351.jpg


DSC00352.jpg


Did some pre-brewing cleaning with some acid sanitizer (I use iodine for brewing itself though):
DSC00347.jpg


More cleaning:
DSC00354.jpg


TB
Click to expand...
 
Kurly said:
Any chance you recall where you got those stainless/glass brew lid tops from? I need to get 3 of them and their size looks perfect for my set-up! TIA,

Kurly
Click to expand...

Heh, Wal*mart of all places. $9.99 a piece. They were labeled universal lids.
 
definitely a great setup and documentation. I just drilled out most of my panel today and look forward to starting on the wiring. Thanks for thee close ups of yours...
 
A couple updates:

1. I got sick of cleaning the boil kettle by siphoning the cleaning water via the side draw dip tube. So, a buddy of mine came over and we drilled, drew a die through, then soldered a half coupling with a ball valve and quick disconnect on the bottom of the keg. Now I've got a bottom dump valve for easy cleaning, and more accurate strike water measurements. I'll get some pictures up when I get a chance.

2. I've had a little difficulty lately with stuck recirculations. I've narrowed it down to my false bottom, since it's bowed and warped pretty bad. I talked to Jay from NorCal and he said he would make everything right. I'm looking forward to having a solution to this and brewing with a reliable recirculation again! He's a great guy to work with!

TB
 
I have a question about gfci that someone might be able to answer. This build is one a few that I have seen that have CB installed in the control panel. Would it be horrible to install a GFCI breaker into the system right where the lines come into the box? I move a lot and dont want to have to reinstall a GFCI to each place that I go to. I have seen the spa panel idea and have the same thought that having to reinstall that might be a pain.
 
mattd2 said:
By the way I have never liked the method of purposefully leaking some current to ground to trip the GFCI as a E-stop, it just seems wrong to me to count of something that should be a last-point-of-protection to stop you system.
Click to expand...
Hi there,

The build is impressive, thanks a lot. I'm designing mine (a much smaller, eBiaB system) and it has been inspiring to say the least (although mine will work with European 230V).

Sorry for my ignorance, but Mattd2, or anyone else, what alternative options do we have? Wouldn't it be easier to just "open" the circuit instead of short-circuiting it?

Thanks.
 
guindilla said:
Hi there,

The build is impressive, thanks a lot. I'm designing mine (a much smaller, eBiaB system) and it has been inspiring to say the least (although mine will work with European 230V).

Sorry for my ignorance, but Mattd2, or anyone else, what alternative options do we have? Wouldn't it be easier to just "open" the circuit instead of short-circuiting it?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

The problem we have is that we want something that povides a safety but we also want to do it a cheaply as possible. Which is where the GFCI trip works in. It does allow that the supply to the box be turned off from the box (i.e. everything is dead including the cable out to the box).
Using a more conventional industrial approach of a contactor that drops out when you hit the e-stop is safer in my opinion because you still have the GFCI behind it to protect you if your "safety" circuit fails. The downfall on this approach is either you ;
a) have to somehow make room for the contactor in the supply box at the wall and run a pair of wires (which would be easy to damage and potentially be at 120/240V unless you had a stepdown transformer in the box) back up the main supply cable to energise the contactor or,
b) are left with only the electrical supply after the contactor in the box being dead, leaving a live supply cable, and potentiall have a box that is at 240V depending on whats happened inside!

My biggest problem is the use of something that is the last-ditch-effort-in-saving-your-life as a switch. Yes it works but it leaves you with no GFCI if it did fail, and they do otherwise why would you need to test them perioidically.
And another point is I have read somewhere (ok I really need to find the sorce!) advice that GFCI/CB should never be used as isolation switchs as they are not made for such purposes (more than likely ass covering from the manufacturer though just in case someone does get hurt doing so).
 
mattd2 said:
The problem we have is that we want something that povides a safety but we also want to do it a cheaply as possible. Which is where the GFCI trip works in. It does allow that the supply to the box be turned off from the box (i.e. everything is dead including the cable out to the box).
Using a more conventional industrial approach of a contactor that drops out when you hit the e-stop is safer in my opinion because you still have the GFCI behind it to protect you if your "safety" circuit fails. The downfall on this approach is either you ;
a) have to somehow make room for the contactor in the supply box at the wall and run a pair of wires (which would be easy to damage and potentially be at 120/240V unless you had a stepdown transformer in the box) back up the main supply cable to energise the contactor or,
b) are left with only the electrical supply after the contactor in the box being dead, leaving a live supply cable, and potentiall have a box that is at 240V depending on whats happened inside!

My biggest problem is the use of something that is the last-ditch-effort-in-saving-your-life as a switch. Yes it works but it leaves you with no GFCI if it did fail, and they do otherwise why would you need to test them perioidically.
And another point is I have read somewhere (ok I really need to find the sorce!) advice that GFCI/CB should never be used as isolation switchs as they are not made for such purposes (more than likely ass covering from the manufacturer though just in case someone does get hurt doing so).
Click to expand...

For the most part, I agree with this. Using GFCI as an emergency power off isn't conventional, and would probably not be endorsed by anyone carrying any liability for others. However, it isn't like a an on/off main switch that sees lots of cycles, or even something that trips occasionally on its own. The only time the GFCI should trip is if it's doing its job of saving your ass from shock, or if you (forbid) need to stop EVERYTHING right now. In either case, it will work, and I have no problem depending on it to save me from harm.

If you're not comfortable with it, go with another solution. If you trust GFCI, this is an economical and simple solution.

TB
 
Tiber_Brew said:
For the most part, I agree with this. Using GFCI as an emergency power off isn't conventional, and would probably not be endorsed by anyone carrying any liability for others. However, it isn't like a an on/off main switch that sees lots of cycles, or even something that trips occasionally on its own. The only time the GFCI should trip is if it's doing its job of saving your ass from shock, or if you (forbid) need to stop EVERYTHING right now. In either case, it will work, and I have no problem depending on it to save me from harm.
Click to expand...
Yup. The one big issue I have with people doing it is that others will see it done and assume that it's a right way to do it, or worse, the original person will say "This the way I do it - it saved me money and is perfectly safe" without giving the caveats.

But then I suppose anyone reading anything on the internet should take everything with a grain of salt. Not everything we read on the Google Interweb is true (is it?). ;)

I just hope everyone makes the decision themselves and doesn't rely on others to make the comfort level decision for them. I get asked ALL time whether something a bit unconventional to save a buck is safe and my general response is always "no" just because I don't want to make that judgement call for someone else.

Kal
 
kal said:
I just hope everyone makes the decision themselves and doesn't rely on others to make the comfort level decision for them. I get asked ALL time whether something a bit unconventional to save a buck is safe and my general response is always "no" just because I don't want to make that judgement call for someone else.

Kal
Click to expand...

100% agreed. Ultimately, it has to be up to the person building the system to make the decision, but it must be an informed one. You should always know the risks and limitations of your design if there are any.
 
Tiber_Brew said:
100% agreed. Ultimately, it has to be up to the person building the system to make the decision, but it must be an informed one. You should always know the risks and limitations of your design if there are any.
Click to expand...

100% agreed :)
 
Your setup is exactly what I have been planning to build for myself. I hope this hasnt been asked already, but what changes would I have to make to your final drawings and parts list to use my 5500W ULD elements in both HLT and BK?
 
sTiNkFiZzle said:
Your setup is exactly what I have been planning to build for myself. I hope this hasnt been asked already, but what changes would I have to make to your final drawings and parts list to use my 5500W ULD elements in both HLT and BK?
Click to expand...

Is there any particular reason you want to use 5500W elements instead of 4500W? If you used my setup, but with 5500W elements, you'd be running awfully close to the 50 amp capacity of the GFCI. I would probably suggest using a higher capacity GFCI if you went that route. You might want to look into sources for a higher capacity GFCI breaker, and about how much it will cost you over the 50A GFCI breaker.

TB
 
Tiber_Brew said:
Is there any particular reason you want to use 5500W elements instead of 4500W? If you used my setup, but with 5500W elements, you'd be running awfully close to the 50 amp capacity of the GFCI. I would probably suggest using a higher capacity GFCI if you went that route. You might want to look into sources for a higher capacity GFCI breaker, and about how much it will cost you over the 50A GFCI breaker.

TB
Click to expand...

I got 2 brand new Camco 5500w elements off ebay for $10 for both. I could always buy 2 4500's I guess. The 50a GFCI breaker that I already purchased and installed in my house breaker box was kinda spendy so I guess buying the 4500s is the best route.
 
sTiNkFiZzle said:
I got 2 brand new Camco 5500w elements off ebay for $10 for both. I could always buy 2 4500's I guess. The 50a GFCI breaker that I already purchased and installed in my house breaker box was kinda spendy so I guess buying the 4500s is the best route.
Click to expand...

You could get away with using your 5500W elements if you didn't use them both at the same time. If you did that, I would install a selector switch for the PIDs to prevent you from using both simultaneously.

Otherwise, I'd recommend using 4500W elements your 50A GFCI.
 
Tiber_Brew said:
You could get away with using your 5500W elements if you didn't use them both at the same time. If you did that, I would install a selector switch for the PIDs to prevent you from using both simultaneously.

Otherwise, I'd recommend using 4500W elements your 50A GFCI.
Click to expand...
He's really close @ 46A for the 2 - 5500W elements. One 5500W element and a 4500W element would draw 42A. No problem there..

Just saying..

Oh... Oh... The selector switch is a great solution as well. Just saying...

P-J
 
OK, correct me if I'm wrong, P-J, but assuming 220V and 5500W: P=IV, so 5500=I(220), I=25. With two elements, that'd be 50A, no?

By the way, how are things? Haven't talked to you in a while...
 
Tiber_Brew said:
OK, correct me if I'm wrong, P-J, but assuming 220V and 5500W: P=IV, so 5500=I(220), I=25. With two elements, that'd be 50A, no?

By the way, how are things? Haven't talked to you in a while...
Click to expand...
Not really: The 5500W element is rated for that wattage at 240V & will draw 22.9A. The same element powered with 220V will draw less power as the resistance of the element does not change. The resistance is the one constant in the whole thing. With that said: driving the same element at a lower voltage uses less amps to drive it.


Yea, It's been quite a while since we talked. I'm getting really old but still hanging in there. I really hope you are doing well my friend.

P-J
Paul
 
P-J said:
...The same element powered with 220V ...
Click to expand...
I thought that US mains was regulated to 240V +/- 5% (so ~230 - 250V), Which would give 22 - 24A (all values rounded). Since you would be expecting some transmission losses I would not imagine you would be at the 24A mark unless you were brewing in a power station :D
 
P-J said:
The 5500W element is rated for that wattage at 240V & will draw 22.9A.
Click to expand...

I see. Didn't know they were rated with 240V specifically.

Yea, It's been quite a while since we talked. I'm getting really old but still hanging in there. I really hope you are doing well my friend.

P-J
Paul
Click to expand...

I'm doing fine, thanks. Thanks again for helping out.
 
I'm running 2 5500W elements with a 50A GFCI with no problems. My max usage for max volume is getting 19 gallons up to mash temp in 20 minutes. After that I'm coasting and it doesn't take as long to get to boil. I love this system.
 

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