Electrical Safety.

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CodeRage said:
Hey! who said you could get down? Get back up on your crucifix! j/k

The NEC is okay, but finding the effin information you need is a pain in the ass, and every rule seems to have an exception, with an exception to the exception and you have to jump back and forth through the whole damned thing.

My boss pulled out his copy of the Canadian equivalent. Holy cow, information is in one spot, logically arranged, and hardly an asterisk to be found. Screw the national health care, Im moving to canada for the electical code!
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If you have seen the 2008 NEC they have removed 90% of the exceptions. If you compare it to the 1999 code book its like night and day. And yes i have seen the CEC, the biggest differance is they moved Industrial electrical rules to a separate book
 
CodeRage said:
The NEC is okay, but finding the effin information you need is a pain in the ass,
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That's why you have to join a mystical organization of electrical wizards - AKA a union... (j/k)

The NEC is not that bad. I found a few "homeowners electrical guidebooks" that arrange the info in a more "logical" way (at least to me) but still refer you to the NEC for specifics.

Most of the stuff we, as brewers, do is pretty common sense.

When in doubt, always put in a breaker/fuse and use a larger guage wire.

(And yes, I know I'm being a hypocrite since I admit my rig isn't to code...)

I, for one, actually appreciate the electricians on the board who hassle folks. Even if some of their styles are, well, "rough" ;) We'll argue for pages and pages about the best way to sparge, but not give a second thought to a crappy wiring job.

Mashing on my non-code electric rig right now ;)
 
Bernie Brewer said:
Uh, yes it is. Every state and local code starts with the NEC. They may tweak it some, but for the most part, it is the basis for all safe wiring and design. And that is exactly what makes it the "end all be all".
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It's the end all be all for structural wiring. Not all wiring is structural wiring. Is your oven or computer wired to be compliant with NEC code? Any brew rig, by definition, is not in compliance with NEC unless it is UL/CSA/etc. approved.
 
electrical appliance manufacturers have nema codes they must go by, just like we have the NEC for building wiring.

This IMHO all came about by insurance companies not liking to payout claims. They lobbied to have stringent codes and enforcement in the building industries.

Electrical Fire protection and Electrical Safety for the consumer is what the insurance companies are trying to avoid paying money out on so the fire protection and electrical codes changes as they see where they are paying out the most money in claims.
 
bakins said:
That's why you have to join a mystical organization of electrical wizards - AKA a union... (j/k)

The NEC is not that bad. I found a few "homeowners electrical guidebooks" that arrange the info in a more "logical" way (at least to me) but still refer you to the NEC for specifics.

Most of the stuff we, as brewers, do is pretty common sense.

When in doubt, always put in a breaker/fuse and use a larger guage wire.

(And yes, I know I'm being a hypocrite since I admit my rig isn't to code...)

I, for one, actually appreciate the electricians on the board who hassle folks. Even if some of their styles are, well, "rough" ;) We'll argue for pages and pages about the best way to sparge, but not give a second thought to a crappy wiring job.

Mashing on my non-code electric rig right now ;)
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I think somebody's style is, "well, rough," when they say something like: "That's why you have to join a mystical organization of electrical wizards - AKA a union... "

That's an unnecessary generalization if I ever heard one, the kind that (unfortunately) the anonymity of the Internet tends to breed.
I've certainly read some opinionated posts in this thread, but at least they stem from somebody's personal opinion and (claimed) experiences, not from an unfounded stereotype like a mystical organization of electrical wizards = union. There's nothing mystical about learning to do electrical work: 110/220 don't discriminate.

N.B.:

1. I am not a union member.

2. I learned how to wire to code (residential stuff, at least) from various sources, including reading, consulting with real electricians & nice color pictures on various Internet sites. It all may not be pretty, but I believe it's within code, and safe.
 
See why me being a slow learner I still haven't learned to be silent now just read this forum without adding comments in regard to electrical? Well slipped up on this thread with replies. More fun reading material not to look down on others that are not in the trade just that some are set in their ways be it wrong. Just be safe. An inspector can be a prick and about failing even a clean and legal installation if they wanted. How you come off to them on a job site makes a total difference. I had a couple floors of a commercial build the final signed off before the Tee bar for fixtures was even installed. He knew our company and the quality of work over the years. Screw them once your in trouble.
 
BrewBeemer said:
See why me being a slow learner I still learned to became silent and now just read this forum without adding comments in regard to electrical? Well slipped up on this thread with replies. More fun reading material not to look down on others that are not in the trade just that some are set in their ways be it wrong. Just be safe. An inspector can be a prick and about failing even a clean and legal installation if they wanted. How you come off to them on a job site makes a total difference. I had a couple floors of a commercial build the final signed off before the Tee bar for fixtures was even installed. He knew our company and the quality of work over the years. Screw them once your in trouble.
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I was just playing with you man. Im sure you know that though.
I've seen people with an NEC book open and argue about the right way to do something according to the NEC. They were both using the book too. My point is even if you are familiar with NEC a point can be argued by two very experienced people. Know what I mean?

We're a 508 panel shop and so I am familiar with the 'appliance' aspect. It's funny though, as soon as a contractor hangs our enclosure and punches a hole in it for conduit the enclosure looses its UL rating. Kind of stupid if you ask me but, at least they know it was built to 508 standards...

As for union/non union. I've met good and bad electricians from both camps, it really depends on the person. Either way, if you have questions consult with some one. For residential wiring, talk to a master electrician who does a lot of residential work. For control panels and appliances, well ask away and use your best judgement.

Like dad always said, an ounce of precaution can save you a pound in the ass.
 
rico567 said:
not from an unfounded stereotype like a mystical organization of electrical wizards = union.
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Dude, chill. j/k means just kidding. Ie, it was said in jest. FWIW, I'm an a-hole in real-life too - being pseudo-anonymous has nothing to do with my level of sarcasm - ask my friends and my wife ;)

And if you actually read my post, I was defending those electricians on the board who correct us from time to time. I actually like BrewBeemer (at least from what I've seen on the list).
 
Bernie Brewer said:
And just like in law the only person whose interpretation really counts is the AHJ. In other words, the electrical inspector.
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Ya got that right as cities can have their codes higher and tighter than the NEC Code book as the NEC Code book sets the "Minimum Safety Standards".
Piss off your inspector on the job site he can about shut you down or delay the project costing the contractor time and money. Been there done that in the past. Best part on one high rise I had 3 floors that had a "Final Signed Off For Electrical" before a single stick of "Tee Bar" was installed with fixtures still on pallets in boxes. This inspector knew our company and employes for years and trusted our work quality. Of course we had "Friday Safety Meetings" and after hours our inspector would show up and join our bier parties. Work hard then play and party hard.
 
When I had my garage built, I believe the Electrical Inspector said that as long as the garage was at or above grade, then I did not need GFCI Outlets.

So far I have only two outlets and they are both GFCI Protected. I'll likely wire the whole thing GFCI for safety, but I swear he said only if below grade was it required. Which is funny because I thought as long as you were on a concrete slab you needed it.

Anyway, I'm all about safety, except that one outlet by the bench that I wired in a hurry to get a light installed. That one is not yet GFCI.

I even buried the wire twice the depth to the garage, and placed it in Conduit to boot.
 
The UL Mark does not carry any legal weight beyond that of any other trademark. In this sense, it is different from the CE Marking or the FCC Part 15 requirements for electronic devices, which are required by law. In practice, however, it may be extremely difficult to sell certain types of products without a UL Mark. Large distributors may be unwilling to carry a product without UL certification, and the use of noncertified equipment may invalidate insurance coverage. It is common practice in many fields to specify UL Listed equipment or UL Recognized materials. Local jurisdictional authorities, such as building, electrical and fire inspectors, may be reluctant to accept a product for installation in a building unless it carries a recognized third-party compliance mark such as the UL Mark
 
Take a look at all of the cheap Chinese junk that carries the UL certification. Some of that stuff is not the least bit safe.
 
Nova5 said:
A dual breaker is individual protection if I remember the way its done properly.
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That would better be a two pole breaker bridged together as i've seen many installed with separate breakers and buss for 240 volt without a bridge added or a factory two pole breaker. This correct on reading your above reply?

The best one was a friend that removed a single breaker and installed two wafer breakers on the same leg, his brewing heating times were way too slow. This I corrected by relocating the breakers to two legs vs one leg for 240 vs 120 volt plus added a bridge to the breakers, again a DIY person just not knowing.

Worse is people pulling off a unused old range receptacle then splitting it off for two 120 volt circuits with #14 or #12 wire thinking 15 or 20 amps they're protected without down sizing the breaker. Check your homeowners fire insurance policy if they will cover you after the fire marshals final fire report findings. Don't know, just ask as the right and safe installation is the safe way.
 
BrewBeemer said:
That would better be a two pole breaker bridged together as i've seen many installed with separate breakers and buss for 240 volt without a bridge added or a factory two pole breaker. This correct on reading your above reply?
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So a factory two pole, 50a GFCI breaker would then satisfy this?
 
McKBrew said:
Take a look at all of the cheap Chinese junk that carries the UL certification. Some of that stuff is not the least bit safe.
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My daughter at 16 a had to have one "special model hair dryer", she got it we pitched in at $134, two weeks later up in smoke spitting parks and stink before the bathroom GFI tripped. Yes the GFI will trip with just my Fluke 87 meter voltage testing hot to ground.

Costco has a Crescent brand (since 1907) 211 piece tool set, kind of handy for my son in college to have away from home. Small print, assembled in Taiwan, pliers and wrenches made in China. Another American brand name gone. Hein Werner floor jacks are back but this time not the made in USA like the past 80 years but made in China. Don't chew on the paint.
 
Homercidal said:
When I had my garage built, I believe the Electrical Inspector said that as long as the garage was at or above grade, then I did not need GFCI Outlets.

So far I have only two outlets and they are both GFCI Protected. I'll likely wire the whole thing GFCI for safety, but I swear he said only if below grade was it required. Which is funny because I thought as long as you were on a concrete slab you needed it.

Anyway, I'm all about safety, except that one outlet by the bench that I wired in a hurry to get a light installed. That one is not yet GFCI.

I even buried the wire twice the depth to the garage, and placed it in Conduit to boot.
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Significantly above grade probably won't need it but near grade or lower certiantly does due to water risks from rain. But why quibble over 13 bucks? put one in and be done with it.

To wire an entire circuit for GFCI protection just locate the first outlet in the chain, make it a GFCI, hook the Hot/Inbound wire to the LINE side, outbound wire to the LOAD side. Everything after the GFCI is now protected by the GFCI.
 
McKBrew said:
Take a look at all of the cheap Chinese junk that carries the UL certification. Some of that stuff is not the least bit safe.
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I used a bunch of cheap GFCI's at one point and to many started breaking down and not working right. I went back and replaced them in ALL houses I had installed them in at my cost with what I had used before. I wasn't going to take the chance of something serious happening. Customers were very happy we took such a stance.

BrewBeemer said:
That would better be a two pole breaker bridged together as i've seen many installed with separate breakers and buss for 240 volt without a bridge added or a factory two pole breaker. This correct on reading your above reply?

The best one was a friend that removed a single breaker and installed two wafer breakers on the same leg, his brewing heating times were way too slow. This I corrected by relocating the breakers to two legs vs one leg for 240 vs 120 volt plus added a bridge to the breakers, again a DIY person just not knowing.

Worse is people pulling off a unused old range receptacle then splitting it off for two 120 volt circuits with #14 or #12 wire thinking 15 or 20 amps they're protected without down sizing the breaker. Check your homeowners fire insurance policy if they will cover you after the fire marshals final fire report findings. Don't know, just ask as the right and safe installation is the safe way.
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Yes a Dual/Double/Joined breaker that has the factory installed bar on its switches is what I mean. each breaker in that unit handles 1 of the wires.

You can get away with the stove outlet trick of usability but both legs are at the 50amp capacity, so you can easily overdraw the circuit. Replace the 50amp double with a pair of 15 or 20amp singles and you are "okay" but not great. Not wise to run two separate circuits down the same wire, damn near stupid IMO. You can certainly underamp a wire. use a 8ga wire for 15amps(14ga normally). Its just silly but its safe. If you are repurposing the pre-installed wire, thats fine. Never Overamp, but you can always Underamp.

The breakers in a Dual breaker are electrically independent, and only joined mechanically so that if one or the other detects an overload the entire unit is shut off.
 
BrewBeemer said:
A 2 pole GFI breaker at the panel is not a cheap item that's one fact I know but again I got them off the contractors for free yeara ago. A hot tub GFI would cost less but your protected.
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I know they are not cheap, but I do have one and was able to pick it up at a fair price.

But back to the original question, would one of these satisfy the individual protection for a heater element?
 
cyberbackpacker said:
I know they are not cheap, but I do have one and was able to pick it up at a fair price.

But back to the original question, would one of these satisfy the individual protection for a heater element?
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Sounds like your using a 240 volt heating element on 240 volts, in that case your fully protected with a factory two pole breaker or two single pole breakers with a bridge across both breakers. Plus if using a 50 amp 2 pole GFI your element, you and your equipments protected. be sure to add grounding jumpers on all your equipment and bond togethe. Overkill is better than being ungrounded and killed around wet areas by a long shock. We don't need a Dirt Nap.
 
Nova5 said:
I used a bunch of cheap GFCI's at one point and to many started breaking down and not working right. I went back and replaced them in ALL houses I had installed them in at my cost with what I had used before. I wasn't going to take the chance of something serious happening. Customers were very happy we took such a stanc
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Not wise to run two separate circuits down the same wire, damn near stupid IMO.[/QUOTE]

What are you thinking here I must ask? With two separate legs you have two separate 120 volt circuits that are safe provided the breakers are down sized to the wire gauge used after the old range wire as well separated from each other by this not bridging the two breakers. By the time you have a neutral and ground in the circuits it would be better to stop pissing around and just run two new separate circuits and blank off the old range receptacle, disconnect at the panel and use the old breaker space for the new lower amp breakers.

You can't go wrong using Leviton brand switches and receptacles. A 20 amp receptacle on a 20 amp breaker not a 15 amp receptacle on a 20 amp breaker. I see this all the time with high wattage microwaves or portable heaters in houses and kitchens that fail over time.

There's a reason why I stayed away from "dingbat" work plus the wife does not offer my services to people asking, only very close and special friends is bad enough. In my city houses are from the 1800's thru the 1930's, 80% of them have rats nest fire hazard packed panels by DIY home owners down to 16 gauge zip cord wrapped to knob & tube runs under the house or attic.
Switch the neutral in old houses is the real surprise in houses of the 1910 era, I have a 1905 and 1913 rental house. Total rewiring required in both plus panel amperage upgrades.
 
Nova5 said:
UL is just a private entity so their "rules" are purely recommendations.
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UL listing IS usually required by the AHJ and in some cases required by the NEC. I know it is here. Also it is often required by fire insurance policies, and they can void a claim by proving a item was not UL listed.

Our AHJ also has a provision that Equipment built to NEC code with UL listed parts shall be acceptable. this would be the case most Brew rigs, except for the DIY Heat sticks which are obviously not UL listed. since those cost a lot more.

As for "individual protection". When you have a 50a CB feeding 3 heaters each rated at 12a, you need to add a Fuse or CB rated at 15a to each heater phase. This is a standard way of building industrial control panels. We also usually place the fuses before the switching device (SSR in most brew rigs) So that if it shorts, the fuses will protect it also.
 
passedpawn said:
I doubt this is true for GFI breakers, which was the topic.
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if the breaker is rated 240v (which is why it would be a 2 pole) it has to be mechanically joined. I think your confused by the fact that most GFCI two pole breakers only have one handle. typical 2pole breakers are made by taking (2) single pole breakers, riveting the 2 cases together and bridging the handels, this meets code and is cheap. This is impossable to do with GFCI or any type of sensing breakers. they have internal components that need to be connected, so they have to have a case made specificly for 2 or 3 poles. This also means they can use 1 handle on the outside to open/close the multiple poles internally.
 
lazybean said:
typical 2pole breakers are made by taking (2) single pole breakers, riveting the 2 cases together and bridging the handels, this meets code and is cheap. This is impossable to do with GFCI or any type of sensing breakers. they have internal components that need to be connected, so they have to have a case made specificly for 2 or 3 poles.
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Uh, so I think we are in agreement, as this is what I was said in far less words.
 

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