Bottle immediately - or secondary ?

Is there reall any difference between letting the primary fermentation reach 95% completion, and bottling without priming sugar into 2 litre bottles - and letting the fermentation go to, say, 99%, then racking into secondary, leaving a while then bottling, with or without extra yeast and priming sugar. After all, in the 2 litre bottle, the yeast is still acting on the beer, the beer goes from green to eminently drinkable in say 4 weeks. Note, I am not discussing techniques for kegged beer with or without carbon dioxide top pressure.

Sorry Bob, I think the only way to bottle is letting it reach 100% of fermantation. Bottling at 95% or 99% is just asking for bottle bombs. I can't even imagine why anyone would consider anything else.

I have been brewing for 40 years, and I have only had one bottle explode, that was a St Peters bottle, thin green glass, medicine bottle shape. Yes sometimes I get LIVELY bottles, but sometimes I get pretty flat beer in bottles. I don't know if 95 and 99 are the right percentages, but if a recipe starts at SG 1.038 and under ideal conditions can get down to SG 1.002, 95% gets it down to 1.0038. Just how much "SG" do you need in bottle to ensure carbonation, if anyone has a link to a source, I would be grateful.

If you could without a doubt know beforehand what your final gravity would be than you could figure out what amount of sugar was left in the beer based on gravity measurements. However, unless ALL conditions are the same I don't think this is possible. It would be nice to not use priming sugar, but I'd rather use it than end up with either bottle bombs, foamy messes, or 2 cases of flat beer.

BOBTHEukBREWER said:

I have been brewing for 40 years, and I have only had one bottle explode, that was a St Peters bottle, thin green glass, medicine bottle shape. Yes sometimes I get LIVELY bottles, but sometimes I get pretty flat beer in bottles. I don't know if 95 and 99 are the right percentages, but if a recipe starts at SG 1.038 and under ideal conditions can get down to SG 1.002, 95% gets it down to 1.0038. Just how much "SG" do you need in bottle to ensure carbonation, if anyone has a link to a source, I would be grateful.

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I will preface my comments with the fact that I really have no useful information relating to what you seek. However, if you would humor me. Why would you want to do this in the first place. You mention ideal FG, but as a dedicated homebrewer myself, I can assuredly say that FG is a ballpark target that I myself can come close to, but not necessarily hit on the head every time. Therefore, in your proposed process exists one uncontrollable variable that is probably contributing to your "lively" as well as your "flat" bottles.
I am in no way critizing your process, but merely fail to understand it's benefit. 4oz or corn sugar to prime is pretty insignificant in the overall cost of the batch.

Our local microbrewery takes 5 gallons out of each 360 gallon batch, after the yeast has been in 24 hours, and ferments it out at 28 deg C, ie it finishes before the 355 gals, then they know the end point. Personally, I believe I can detect the end by no bubbles bursting on surface and the top 3 inches pretty clear, at that stage, sometimes after only 3 days, I bottle without priming sugar. Most of the time carbonation is ok. If I get a flat bottle, I open a known "lively" bottle, and blend them. Works for me.

I agree I don't know the FG - and I don't aim at a particular FG. Often I don't measure the SG because I have used that recipe many times before. The original question challenged the presumption that you need to put beer in secondary - when the 2 litre bottle is, in effect, a little secondary.

Ahhh, gotcha. You just threw the "bottling without priming sugar" in there to trip me up, huh?!?!
I guess I have read too many posts over the last few..... well, months. I don't always go back to the first post before commenting.... OK, done weaselling out.

One thing to keep in mind is that after fermentation is done, or nearly done, the yeast are doing all kinds of things to the beer like cleaning up other compounds, fermentation byproducts and such.

My understanding is that this process isn't nearly as effective once split up into small containers and off of the bulk of the yeast.

So even if you could gauge exactly when to bottle to achieve the proper carbonation, you'd be harming the final quality of the beer.

Nurmey said:

Sorry Bob, I think the only way to bottle is letting it reach 100% of fermantation. Bottling at 95% or 99% is just asking for bottle bombs. I can't even imagine why anyone would consider anything else.

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Actually some German breweries do this to adhere to the Reinheitsgebot - it's called "capping fermentation."

They do it like the OP pointed out: the ferment a batch of the same wort on the side quicker, finding the end gravity, and then they can calculate the point at which they should cap the main fermentation.

PseudoChef said:

Actually some German breweries do this to adhere to the Reinheitsgebot - it's called "capping fermentation."

They do it like the OP pointed out: the ferment a batch of the same wort on the side quicker, finding the end gravity, and then they can calculate the point at which they should cap the main fermentation.

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This is probably true, but you are also talking about much larger breweries who's consistency is a bit better than the majority of homebrewers.
Not saying it wouldn't work at all. I just don't know why a homebrewer would take a chance of hosing a batch to over-carbed/under-carbed results.

Agreed, just saying that it is done.

cmgray said:

One thing to keep in mind is that after fermentation is done, or nearly done, the yeast are doing all kinds of things to the beer like cleaning up other compounds, fermentation byproducts and such... so even if you could gauge exactly when to bottle to achieve the proper carbonation, you'd be harming the final quality of the beer.

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My thoughts too. I'd want to give the yeast at least a few days after final gravity is reached to clear up after themselves. Hurrying into bottles would cut out or impair this part of the process.

Though in the interests of full disclosure, I've never compared this side by side to see if I could notice the difference. It's something I've heard Jamil Zainasheff mention several times on his podcasts, and as he's ever so slightly better at brewing than I am I defer to his wisdom.

you are doing this to trap C02 to carbonate your beer, or to free up carboy space, are you against using a priming sugar in your bottles or this is just a discussion for fun?

you can trap C02 to carb your beer during secondary fermentation using a spunding valve and a pressure vessel (like a corny keg)...one of the issues of BYO has a write up on building one. using the spunding valve you can keep a set pressure on your vessel to carbonate it (using a temperature/pressure for desired volumes of C02 chart)

"Personally, I believe I can detect the end by no bubbles bursting on surface and the top 3 inches pretty clear, at that stage, sometimes after only 3 days, I bottle without priming sugar. Most of the time carbonation is ok. If I get a flat bottle, I open a known "lively" bottle, and blend them. Works for me."

umm i don't know where to start with this one....i think the general consensus would be that using a hydrometer would be a much better way to gauge you fermentation.

carbonation ok??? dont you want better for your baby that you have sweated over to create? at the very least priming sugar will give you mostly repeatable results and is adjustable for different beer styles...although some experts such as palmer and jamil advise using kegging and force carbonation for the most control. without knowing what pressure you are creating in your bottles you are flying in the dark. will it make your beer fizzy? i guess the answer is yes..but is there a better way for us on the homebrew scale? the answer again would be yes.

here is a quick link i just came across...its not all to do with what you are asking but the section towards the bottom is.

Brew Your Own: The How-To Homebrew Beer Magazine - Techniques - Kräusening: Techniques

BOBTHEukBREWER said:

I have been brewing for 40 years, and I have only had one bottle explode, that was a St Peters bottle, thin green glass, medicine bottle shape. Yes sometimes I get LIVELY bottles, but sometimes I get pretty flat beer in bottles. I don't know if 95 and 99 are the right percentages, but if a recipe starts at SG 1.038 and under ideal conditions can get down to SG 1.002, 95% gets it down to 1.0038. Just how much "SG" do you need in bottle to ensure carbonation, if anyone has a link to a source, I would be grateful.

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here it is in your own words....you get very inconsistent carbonation. i dont know what has changed in the last 40 years..but using a scale and weighing priming sugar to ensure consistency would be the minimum i would consider doing myself. if you have an aversion to using corn sugar you can use DME , or table sugar, or honey even.

i would be very surprised if anybody had a link to what you are asking for here.....as i dont think it is very common practice. even on the larger brewery scale i wouldnt be surprised if they were still controlling the pressure of the vessel somehow to ensure a consistent product.

im not saying it won't/dosen't work....but i cant imagine why you would want to do it like that.

bob, the procedure you're looking for is called Krausening. That involves saving a portion of the unfermented wort called gyle to use as a priming sugar, of a sort. It involves maths and stuff, so I've never done it. As for trying to time it so the fermentation is mostly done, I would not do that unless you like asploding bottles.

Thanks, everybody. I stand by my statement that I can see "the end point" by lack of activity and the top few inches clearing. I find I can then bottle without priming sugar and say 9 out of 10 brews are fine. If a brew is a bit gassy I pour bottle into a jug, then from 1 jug to another at height, this degasses it nicely, and I drink it before it oxidises. I bottle in 4 to 8 days, always have done, but I am experimenting with filling a demijohn at end point, and leaving that 2 weeks before bottling, with priming sugar. Will keep the forum posted on that.