Chuck may have a point though. Technically, you could offer services to people as long as they are in their own home and basically pitching the yeast. It's not the same thing as selling your own, but probably as close as you can get - legally...
Legalities of bartering with home brew
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Chuck, homercidal's making a joke. Hence the wink
Revvy,
So was I. Imagine the work needed to move your equipment to someone else's home vs. the fee you could charge. It's a guaranteed money looser, you couldn't pay for mileage at today's prices, let alone the loss from damage, etc.
ChuckO said:
Its called a BOP and it is also regulated; you can't provide any physical brewing assistance. No racking, pitching, nothing.
Isn't the BOP model and all the regulation surrounding it based on the fact that it is the business owner's premises? I know the two BOP's in NJ ferment on site so it clearly doesn't fall under home brewing.
If you offered home brew consulting you could charge people to show them how to brew, sell them ingredients, etc but your presence in the whole process doesn't change the fact that someone fermented beer at home for their own consumption.
The more gray area is if you physically brew it and pitch the yeast. But still, it is made, fermented, and consumed at someone's home.
If you offered home brew consulting you could charge people to show them how to brew, sell them ingredients, etc but your presence in the whole process doesn't change the fact that someone fermented beer at home for their own consumption.
The more gray area is if you physically brew it and pitch the yeast. But still, it is made, fermented, and consumed at someone's home.
I think this would be perfectly legal. The key illegality is selling homebrew; the protagonist is not doing that in any way, shape, or form here.
Hey remember. A few decades ago when people would try to get you to hire them as stereo purchasing consultants or computer buying consultants.
Seems like the same bad idea.
Seems like the same bad idea.
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klyph
Well-Known Member
I brew on my system in my buddy's basement, and we split the batches. He told me that, for legal reasons, we have to hold hands when we pitch the yeast, but I'm not sure about that.
Doesn't make it illegal though. I don't se there being a big market for it. It seems like the natural progression is to become interested, then learn either on your own via reading, or join a club. How many of us would have paid someone to "teach" us to brew after buying all of the equipment? I bet BoP business mostly cater to people who want a "taste" of brewing, or want to try it out before they buy the expensive equipment.
Airborneguy said:
Teaching is not illegal. This was about material gain in exchange for homebrewed beer which is.
wildwest450
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klyph
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You should see how we aerate the wort!
The BoP model is useful to a few different people. 1. The new person who wants to try without commiting to all the equipment - although given the cost of one BoP experience, buying buckets is less expensive, unless 2. the space issue of having brewing equipement - basically you are not just renting gear, but space and most people are happy to not have stuff that they might not use again. 3. Some BoP's go larger (like 10 or 15 gal) and you could do the brew as a group thing with some office people either sanctioned - ie team building - or not - just a bunch of friends brewing. This has the advantage that if you aren't a high volumne drinker.
But most of the forum people here are probably at most once or twice that they'd do a BoP and then only if they were going with someone. Another nice feature of the BoP is that they can help until the yeast is pitched, and they take care of all cleaning/sanatizing. Think of all the people who go to those kitchens and make all the weeks meals at once and then bring them home.
In some states I understand that is illegal, in others it is required to make it jointly....
This sounds a lot like the "we're not selling beer, we're selling cups" that lands a lot of fratboys in jail every year. It's a "gift", but it's a gift predicated on receiving a gift of equal value...i.e., an exchange.
fawk it . . .
Do what you want. Dont be stupid about it. Know who you're dealing with. Dont get caught . . . And if ya do, chalk it up as a learning experience on what not to do if you are trying to stay under the radar. Simple enuff
Do what you want. Dont be stupid about it. Know who you're dealing with. Dont get caught . . . And if ya do, chalk it up as a learning experience on what not to do if you are trying to stay under the radar. Simple enuff
Teaching and BoP is not a bad idea, but it will not be taken up by a lot of homebrewers, especially the ones with fancy systems that don't have an easy way of hauling it. Personally, if the RIGHT person were to ask, I'd probably haul my stuff over to their house and show them how to brew.
But honestly, at this point you've made it not worth the effort to brew beer for money. For me it would have to be a friend or potential future brewer, not for someone who just wants to buy my beer. And then, they could come over to MY house and be shown the ropes.
But yeah, I can see this as a way (a very inefficient way) of recouping the material cost of brewing for someone else legally.
Pippa...
But honestly, at this point you've made it not worth the effort to brew beer for money. For me it would have to be a friend or potential future brewer, not for someone who just wants to buy my beer. And then, they could come over to MY house and be shown the ropes.
But yeah, I can see this as a way (a very inefficient way) of recouping the material cost of brewing for someone else legally.
Pippa...
Amber_Logger
Member
From a legal standpoint, trading beer for goods/services without being properly licensed would constitute a penalty by law. However, the law states you are innocent until proven guilty, therefore if you decide to go ahead and provide this barter arrangement, make sure you do not get caught.
Now, there are some technicalities you would want to keep in mind such as; since your beer is not commercially brewed, if the person you provided the brew to gets sick or has an allergic reaction to it, this person(s) could call you out on it. Taking that even to small claims court could get you into trouble real fast and real hard. Another technicality could be something as small as someone not liking the taste. There are no guards against this, it being a barter environment without any legal representation backing you, so you are putting yourself out there.
I know about this because I have a few lawyer friends that I have been able to pick their brains over time.
Now, there are some technicalities you would want to keep in mind such as; since your beer is not commercially brewed, if the person you provided the brew to gets sick or has an allergic reaction to it, this person(s) could call you out on it. Taking that even to small claims court could get you into trouble real fast and real hard. Another technicality could be something as small as someone not liking the taste. There are no guards against this, it being a barter environment without any legal representation backing you, so you are putting yourself out there.
I know about this because I have a few lawyer friends that I have been able to pick their brains over time.
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klyph
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ReverseApacheMaster
Well-Known Member
Good enough for me!
It's just like going to law school and passing the bar.
Amber_Logger said:
Wouldn't seeking damages from A homebrew trade gone wrong be like calling the cops because a prostitute stole your money???
Both parties are guilty of a crime, you'd be incriminating yourself
Amber_Logger
Member
A customer of a homebrew barter could always plead ignorance. It's not the same thing as your prostitute example because drinking beer is not illegal. If we were still under alcohol prohibition laws, then your example would hold true.
Pilgarlic
Well-Known Member
Not really. Having sex isn't illegal either, but buying it is (in some jurisdictions). So you could say "It's not the same thing as your prostitute example because buying beer is not illegal."
Pilgarlic
Well-Known Member
I wonder. I'm not sure that mowing a lawn for a homebrew is illegal, whereas paying (selling) a homebrew for a lawn mow might be. I would certainly be perfectly willing to stand corrected, though. One would also have to look to both federal and state laws, which should be expected to vary some.
Pilgarlic said:
It might depend on the process.
Ex: "hey, thanks for mowing my lawn, care for a beer?" vs "I'll give you a beer if you mow my lawn"
I think if the homebrew was understood to be a part of the deal from the beginning, it might be illegal. However, if the receiving party is unaware of the homebrew before the service/good is performed/received, and the homebrew is offered after as a good gesture, I think it would be tough to prove a law was broken.
If the beer is drank on the homebrewer's property, then the question is answered. The grey area is when it's moved offsite. Then the beer becomes payment, as opposed to just being a friendly drink between, uh, friends...
This has been discussed to death, but it's actually the intent, location means nothing. You can be standing right next to my kegerator, but if I say "Hey can you mow my lawn? I'll give you a beer for it," then I just broke the law. There's ZERO, ZIP, NOTHING, that can get you around this fact.
And yes, bartering is illegal. It's specifically mentioned in the Federal law. Because of that, no state law is pertinent because state laws cannot relax a Federal Law, they can only strengthen it.
The accepting party is doing nothing wrong because they are accepting an otherwise legal product. Unless there is a law that states that it is illegal to accept homebrewed beer as payment for a service, which I have never heard of one at any government level, then that actor in the transaction has no culpability.
On a further point, in many places, it is only a violation or low-level misdemeanor to sell alcohol improperly. What makes takes this to a higher level is the fact that the alcohol is homebrew, so obviously the homebrewer is going to absorb much more culpability than anyone else involved in the transaction.
Pilgarlic
Well-Known Member
You must be speaking loosely. In a barter exchange, both sides are "bartering". If "bartering is illegal", then both sides have acted illegally. If, on the other hand, "conveying beer through a bartered exchange" is illegal, but "receiving beer through a bartered exchange" is not, then I'm with you.
So, is bartering illegal or not? In the application of law, as you know, it's all about precise language.
General note: pat answers to complicated questions, generally, don't offer much.
But I'm probably just picking a fight.
Yes, but in my post I meant to clarify that no matter the intent, if someone mows your lawn, and you give them homebrew, and they leave the premises, then the law can interpret that as a trade of goods and services.
If they drink the homebrew on the property, then it's just being friendly (provided the offer of homebrew for mowing is not explicitly made).
Man, are we splitting hairs here or what?!
Anyway, the point is, the law is not likely to care unless you are brewing and selling on a large scale. However, the word of the law doesn't stipulate an amount that can be sold legally, so selling any amount can get you in trouble. The OP is not questioning a small barter, but selling a large amount.
I think you could pay a hooker to hand the yard guy a beer.
Pilgarlic
Well-Known Member
I'm not speaking loosely. If you need clarification, use the search and read the countless threads on this. Its illegal, period.
Allow me to clarify and add to my response so that I don't sound like I'm starting a fight (I was on my phone with my first response).
Police enforce the letter of the law, Lawyers debate and argue the intent. When someone is arrested, they are arrested based on an officer's decision regarding the letter of the law. When someone is arrested, their life is impacted in a very strong, very negative manner, before a lawyer ever gets to defend them using their "interpretation" of the intent of the law.
Point being, when I give my answer every time this topic comes up, I give it with the letter of the law in mind. That's why my answer is definitive and doesn't give leeway. The likelyhood of anyone ever being prosecuted for handing someone else a homebrew as a reward for a service is very, very slim. BUT, as I've said before on this forum and will say again soon I'm sure, this forum is read by many people who are new to this hobby and are looking to the forum as their only source of info regarding a wide variety of questions, including this one. I feel it is the right thing to do to give them the answer that is most correct regarding what can happen to them if they decide to sell or barter with homebrew.
To barter is to exchange goods or services. So back to the lawn-mowing example. If the understanding between two people is that person A is providing a lawn-mowing service, in return for person B's homebrew, then a crime has been committed by person B. Person A would be committing a crime only if there is a law that states accepting homebrew is illegal. I have never seen one, but there may be one so I am not 100% sure about that actor's culpability. But person B is definitely committing a crime because they have bartered with homebrew, which is specifically banned under the federal law that legalized homebrew. Will this person be prosecuted? In 99.999% of cases, hell no, but how would you (Pilgarlic, specifically), rather the question be answered?
Police enforce the letter of the law, Lawyers debate and argue the intent. When someone is arrested, they are arrested based on an officer's decision regarding the letter of the law. When someone is arrested, their life is impacted in a very strong, very negative manner, before a lawyer ever gets to defend them using their "interpretation" of the intent of the law.
Point being, when I give my answer every time this topic comes up, I give it with the letter of the law in mind. That's why my answer is definitive and doesn't give leeway. The likelyhood of anyone ever being prosecuted for handing someone else a homebrew as a reward for a service is very, very slim. BUT, as I've said before on this forum and will say again soon I'm sure, this forum is read by many people who are new to this hobby and are looking to the forum as their only source of info regarding a wide variety of questions, including this one. I feel it is the right thing to do to give them the answer that is most correct regarding what can happen to them if they decide to sell or barter with homebrew.
To barter is to exchange goods or services. So back to the lawn-mowing example. If the understanding between two people is that person A is providing a lawn-mowing service, in return for person B's homebrew, then a crime has been committed by person B. Person A would be committing a crime only if there is a law that states accepting homebrew is illegal. I have never seen one, but there may be one so I am not 100% sure about that actor's culpability. But person B is definitely committing a crime because they have bartered with homebrew, which is specifically banned under the federal law that legalized homebrew. Will this person be prosecuted? In 99.999% of cases, hell no, but how would you (Pilgarlic, specifically), rather the question be answered?
ABG you get to stand behind your experience as a LEO.
When I give the same answer, they call me the dream killer.
As I said earlier in the thread, I have a legal opinion from an attorney, but most of these questions can be answered by contacting your State's DLLC.
If that's too much trouble, by all means do whatever the hell you like.
When I give the same answer, they call me the dream killer.
As I said earlier in the thread, I have a legal opinion from an attorney, but most of these questions can be answered by contacting your State's DLLC.
If that's too much trouble, by all means do whatever the hell you like.
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I really think I'm going to start saying this. I know how to keep myself out of trouble, why bother anymore?
That's why I usually just give up arguing with the folks, and pm ABG with the thread link.
Pilgarlic
Well-Known Member
Fact is, lawyers' arguments are by no means limited to the intent of laws. The letter of the law is parsed, reparsed, interpreted and reinterpreted. Yes, indeed, two lawyers, two judges or two justices can and do look at the same law and derive divergent meanings. The only DEFINITIVE answer to a law's meaning is provided by the Supreme Court, and that's transient. I will repeat that for anyone to assert that he has definitive knowledge of the law (in this case laws, many of them) is bombast.
I'm called argumentative because I sometimes take issue with someone's approach to an issue, or someone's logical argument, rather than to the issue itself. I simply don't care whether paying your lawn guy with a six pack is illegal. That's a really, really dull question. The nature of law is a lot more interesting to me. Call that argumentative, I don't care. I find it engaging and interesting. If you don't, ignore my posts and I'll cry myself to sleep.
I'm called argumentative because I sometimes take issue with someone's approach to an issue, or someone's logical argument, rather than to the issue itself. I simply don't care whether paying your lawn guy with a six pack is illegal. That's a really, really dull question. The nature of law is a lot more interesting to me. Call that argumentative, I don't care. I find it engaging and interesting. If you don't, ignore my posts and I'll cry myself to sleep.
Ok, no problem.
Revvy, maybe you should stop sending me these links.
Revvy, maybe you should stop sending me these links.
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