Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

Williams 728
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midfielder5 said:
The current issue of Zymurgy noted a county government study re tourism (pg5). The craft beverage industry in the county where Russian River Brewing Co is located (Sonoma) contributed $123 million to the local economy in 2012; and this year's PtYounger release contributed $2.35 million to Sonoma County during the two weeks -- 65% of the attendees were from out of town beer tourists. Alchemy can probably show a similar impact from their popularity and hopefully get a bigger sign or do something at a different location so this one neighbor won't make complaints about her driveway.
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Unfortunately, I don't think Sonoma county is a suitable case study because of the wine industry. Even within a few minutes of downtown Santa Rosa (RRBC's location) you have several fantastic wineries. When you factor the wineries in the cities of Sonoma into it, the data is even more skewed. I do believe the breweries can and do contribute a lot to the economy, but SoCo is not the appropriate locale to cite.
 
afr0byte said:
Huh? Can you explain in more detail what you mean? Perhaps you could provide an example?
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I could cite a few examples (most in burlington, but Brattleboro, stowe, waterbury, and certainly Greensboro offend) but I don't mean to ruffle feathers. It's a generalized prejudice, and not meant to describe all instances. :)
Seriously, I have met so many nice people in vt, and I was just looking at crime statistics and there were only 8 murders in vt in 2011. I love Chicago and the people are great in general, but its this years murder capital! Lol I'm really rambling off topic.
 
Brewed up the clone recipe in the latest BYO (in spite of some the criticism that recipe has received). I've only had a few cans of HT in my lifetime (there are 2 cans still in my fridge). The hydro sample certainly looked "in the ballpark" to me. Hit the numbers pretty squarely, although I cut back on the turbinado (a criticised ingredient) to just 8 oz. Conan cultured from cans is bubbling away in carboy this morning at about 64 deg. Lost a lot of volume to boil off and "hopsorption". Ideally I would have had all pellet hops for the boil and whirlpool, but the Simcoe and Centennial were whole flower. I suppose with this brew I'm less concerned with how much brew I get out of it, vs staying mostly true to the recipe provided. In the end it will be a tasty IIPA, and I think will be a fair clone attempt (50% there maybe?). First time using my new mash tun and first time doing a whirlpool. The tun worked beautifully. The whirlpool/hopstand was 45 min with a jacket wrapped around the pot, lid 50% off. I was concerned about getting enough IBUs. After reviewing Beersmith, I lightly bumped Magnum 60 min addition from 0.5 to 0.75. Based on the hydro sample I'm pretty darn pleased overall. I'll chime back in with end results after bottle conditioning. What are people carbing this to? Does 2.3 volumes sound about right?
 
I'm not too surprised they put in a sugar like turbinado. It's in a lot of big beers like this to keep them light. I always try to mash lower and get rid of the simple sugars unless it's got flavor like the turbinado will have. Any thoughts on if The Alchemist uses some amount of an invert sugar ??? Definitely an interesting sugar choice for any beer.
 
On mobile so I can't edit.

1) the recipe on page 1 uses 5% or less of sugar but doesn't specify which sugar.

2) BYO uses sugars a lot in even mid gravity beers, so I would expect to see it in this recipe from them.
 
BeerGrylls said:
If I were to do this again, I'd use a sugar other than turbinado. I feel like it gives the beer a flavor that I don't pick up in the original.
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But... the original uses turbinado.
 
Kegged the BYO HT clone this week. Only change I made was I used the Conan Yeast strain. Very cloudy and piney......Tasty brew!
 
Quick question about dry hopping this brew: in the BYO article it says to add the first set of dry hops to the primary. I however went to great lengths to acquire the conan strain and dh in the primary would make it quite difficult to rinse and reuse. The OP referenced to sets of dh on day 14 and 21 but didn't specify into which vessel.

Would it be alright to just rack to secondary and add two sets of dry hops there ? This is my usual procedure but seeing how everyone talks about how glorious heady is I would like to closely replicate the process. Any ideas??
 
bluelakebrewing said:
Quick question about dry hopping this brew: in the BYO article it says to add the first set of dry hops to the primary. I however went to great lengths to acquire the conan strain and dh in the primary would make it quite difficult to rinse and reuse. The OP referenced to sets of dh on day 14 and 21 but didn't specify into which vessel.

Would it be alright to just rack to secondary and add two sets of dry hops there ? This is my usual procedure but seeing how everyone talks about how glorious heady is I would like to closely replicate the process. Any ideas??
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If you are dryhop at 14 and 21 days, I would assume that would be in secondary, but that's just me. There will be some differences that are equipment based no matter what you do so I would stock with your usual process here. If it's not close enough then rebrew with the dripping to fermentation. Alternatively, you don't have to pitch your entire culture into the brew. Save some for another starter.
 
bluelakebrewing said:
Quick question about dry hopping this brew: in the BYO article it says to add the first set of dry hops to the primary. I however went to great lengths to acquire the conan strain and dh in the primary would make it quite difficult to rinse and reuse. The OP referenced to sets of dh on day 14 and 21 but didn't specify into which vessel.

Would it be alright to just rack to secondary and add two sets of dry hops there ? This is my usual procedure but seeing how everyone talks about how glorious heady is I would like to closely replicate the process. Any ideas??
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I dry hopped in primary with the first dry hop in a bag and the second I just threw the pellets in. The yeast/trub was a mess and I'm assuming wouldn't have been great to save. So if you really want to save it, I'd move to secondary and dry hop there. I don't know for sure, but I don't see why that would make any difference.

I would also do as brewski09 says and save a portion of your starter instead of rinsing the yeast, but that's a whole other topic :)
 
BeerGrylls said:
I refute this. Please prove me wrong.
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I don't care enough to try to dig it up, but I thought in this very thread somewhere it was determined - someone saw bags of it at the brewery or in a video or something.

Either way it's what - 5% of the bill? Don't think it'd matter that much what sugar you used. In any case Vegan's 4.0 recipe is considered the go-to clone, but we're just making beer so do whatever you wish.
 
I did primary fermentation in the kettle (I used a hop bag so there wasn't as much trub as there could have been), poured through a strainer into a 3 gallon Better Bottle carboy after a week (gravity was down to 1.009), added 1st and 2nd dry hops (pellets), and plan to rack to another 3 gallon Better Bottle carboy for the final dry hop using leaf hops. I probably would have even used Whirlfloc in the boil if I would have thought of it because IMO I don't think the hop and yeast dust at the bottom of the can makes Heady any better, more likely they leave it there because any extra effort to remove it could introduce oxygen. Also, I don't reuse yeast, I just make a bigger starter than I need and save 30-50 billion cells to make another starter in the future. That way my yeast remains fresh and is always the same generation it originally was. All it takes is half a pound of DME to make a 2-step starter that will get 30 billion cells up to 350 billion cells in a few days so why would I want to save stepped on yeast that's been exposed to a highly hopped 8% ABV environment.
 
ianmatth said:
...poured through a strainer into a 3 gallon Better Bottle carboy after a week (gravity was down to 1.009), added 1st and 2nd dry hops (pellets)...
IMO I don't think the hop and yeast dust at the bottom of the can makes Heady any better, more likely they leave it there because any extra effort to remove it could introduce oxygen.
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Have you done the strainer bit before? I was taught to "quietly" siphon. Seems like you just added a bunch of oxygen post-fermentation- which you note further down in your post is a good thing to avoid.
 
paulster2626 said:
I don't care enough to try to dig it up, but I thought in this very thread somewhere it was determined - someone saw bags of it at the brewery or in a video or something.

Either way it's what - 5% of the bill? Don't think it'd matter that much what sugar you used. In any case Vegan's 4.0 recipe is considered the go-to clone, but we're just making beer so do whatever you wish.
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I used the vegan 4.0 recipe, and I would opt for dextrose next time instead. Granted, it's only 3.8% of the grain bill, but I can taste the turbinado in my final product. It's that molasses flavor, and it's a little off-putting. On page 73, theveganbrewer confirms that Alchemist is using dextrose. (here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/heady-topper-can-you-clone-390082/index73.html#post5068582) I'm trying to clone it, and I assume others might appreciate my opinion on a recipe they may try to brew.

Edit: the photo of Kimmich using Cerelose dextrose is here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/heady-topper-can-you-clone-390082/index70.html#post5058942
 
midfielder5 said:
Have you done the strainer bit before? I was taught to "quietly" siphon. Seems like you just added a bunch of oxygen post-fermentation- which you note further down in your post is a good thing to avoid.
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I've done the strainer thing before. I do it pretty quickly, but it probably does introduce a little oxygen, although I'm transferring from a kettle rather than a carboy so it might introduce even more oxygen if I siphoned. Also, there is still fermentation in secondary creating CO2 so I think the vast majority of any oxygen I introduced during that transfer is getting blown off.
 
BeerGrylls said:
I used the vegan 4.0 recipe, and I would opt for dextrose next time instead. Granted, it's only 3.8% of the grain bill, but I can taste the turbinado in my final product. It's that molasses flavor, and it's a little off-putting. On page 73, theveganbrewer confirms that Alchemist is using dextrose. (here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/heady-topper-can-you-clone-390082/index73.html#post5068582) I'm trying to clone it, and I assume others might appreciate my opinion on a recipe they may try to brew.

Edit: the photo of Kimmich using Cerelose dextrose is here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/heady-topper-can-you-clone-390082/index70.html#post5058942
Click to expand...

Ahh, well there you go! Turns out I don't know everything. At least it took us 33 years to determine this though.
 
BeerGrylls said:
I used the vegan 4.0 recipe, and I would opt for dextrose next time instead. Granted, it's only 3.8% of the grain bill, but I can taste the turbinado in my final product. It's that molasses flavor, and it's a little off-putting. On page 73, theveganbrewer confirms that Alchemist is using dextrose. (here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/heady-topper-can-you-clone-390082/index73.html#post5068582) I'm trying to clone it, and I assume others might appreciate my opinion on a recipe they may try to brew.

What he actually confirms is that Alchemist used dextrose in some recipe at the old pub before the flood. Not necessarily Heady. They were making a lot of different beers back then.

Edit: the photo of Kimmich using Cerelose dextrose is here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/heady-topper-can-you-clone-390082/index70.html#post5058942

This video that this picture came from was also shot at the pub and not indicative that it was used for Heady, just that it was used in a beer. Vegan, claims that the information about Turbinado came directly from John Kimmich.
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Hope this info helps Paulster.
 
Brewbien said:
Hope this info helps Paulster.
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Thanks brewbien, actually that helps all of us. We come to forums to have open discourse. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, or get people to choose sides. I'm just trying to get closer to the finished product, and I honestly just wanted to know if it's right or not. The info vegan had on this came via a vermont homebrewer who claims he heard it from Kimmich during a talk. I wish I could find the link, but that didn't seem to me like a legitimate source.
 
BeerGrylls said:
Thanks brewbien, actually that helps all of us. We come to forums to have open discourse. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, or get people to choose sides. I'm just trying to get closer to the finished product, and I honestly just wanted to know if it's right or not. The info vegan had on this came via a vermont homebrewer who claims he heard it from Kimmich during a talk. I wish I could find the link, but that didn't seem to me like a legitimate source.
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Nor am I and I agree with you if that is where he heard it. The problem with these monster threads is that its hard to find information and there is always a lot of conflicting info. Especially when the OP is no long participating.
 
I subbed dextrose in mine instead of turbinado. I'm on day 12 of fermentation but I can post back any results. Only prob is I don't have any heady to compare to!!! What a shame.
 
ianmatth said:
I've done the strainer thing before. I do it pretty quickly, but it probably does introduce a little oxygen, although I'm transferring from a kettle rather than a carboy so it might introduce even more oxygen if I siphoned. Also, there is still fermentation in secondary creating CO2 so I think the vast majority of any oxygen I introduced during that transfer is getting blown off.
Click to expand...
If you transfer at 1.009, there shouldn't be any additional fermentation activity. There may be has release with hop pellet expansion and if it warms co2 will come out of solution at higher temps, but I doubt additional fermentation in this case.
 
BeerGrylls said:
Thanks brewbien, actually that helps all of us. We come to forums to have open discourse. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, or get people to choose sides. I'm just trying to get closer to the finished product, and I honestly just wanted to know if it's right or not. The info vegan had on this came via a vermont homebrewer who claims he heard it from Kimmich during a talk. I wish I could find the link, but that didn't seem to me like a legitimate source.
Click to expand...

Even if Kimmicj does use turbinado, our systems may not yield the same results with an exactly duplicated recipe. Dextrose may give the right flavor and mouthfeel whereas turbinado does not. I use turbinado in my coffee because I like the flavor, but it's powerful enough to be tasted in small quantities in my coffee, so it probably is detectable in beer pretty readily too. Anyone try some of the Belgian candi sugars in this like the D-45 ???

http://www.candisyrup.com
 
ianmatth said:
I've done the strainer thing before. I do it pretty quickly, but it probably does introduce a little oxygen, although I'm transferring from a kettle rather than a carboy so it might introduce even more oxygen if I siphoned. Also, there is still fermentation in secondary creating CO2 so I think the vast majority of any oxygen I introduced during that transfer is getting blown off.
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FYI, if you are moving to secondary before fermentation is complete, you are asking for a bit of trouble with a beer that isn't finished and removed it from the yeast. There normally is no fermenation in secondary, and hence no extra production of co2. It's in solution after fermentation so if you put it through a strainer, you've pretty much removed the co2 and added o2.

Your logic sounds a bit off, but if the beer taste fine to you, continue.
 
FATC1TY said:
FYI, if you are moving to secondary before fermentation is complete, you are asking for a bit of trouble with a beer that isn't finished and removed it from the yeast. There normally is no fermenation in secondary, and hence no extra production of co2. It's in solution after fermentation so if you put it through a strainer, you've pretty much removed the co2 and added o2.

Your logic sounds a bit off, but if the beer taste fine to you, continue.
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Tell that to the guys at Kern River Brewing - that might help explain why their Citra DIPA is only rated #8 in the world on Beeradvocate.
 
jammin said:
Tell that to the guys at Kern River Brewing - that might help explain why their Citra DIPA is only rated #8 in the world on Beeradvocate.
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Kern river doesn't pour their fermented beer through a strainer, now do they?

Maybe it's the oxidized flavor or the rareness that makes it so good now.
 
brewski09 said:
If you transfer at 1.009, there shouldn't be any additional fermentation activity. There may be has release with hop pellet expansion and if it warms co2 will come out of solution at higher temps, but I doubt additional fermentation in this case.
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I usually get my beers to drop another point or two in secondary, plus I let the temperature go a little higher since I kept it at 63* in primary, so I think it will get a little more attenuation and thus put out some more CO2. I could also thrown in a little bit of sugar if I wanted to make sure it would produce CO2, but that might throw off the flavor if I do it before bottling.
 
FATC1TY said:
Kern river doesn't pour their fermented beer through a strainer, now do they?

Maybe it's the oxidized flavor or the rareness that makes it so good now.
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I agree about the strainer. I was referring to the body of your post though. The reference to moving to secondary prior to completion of fermentation. Kerns does this with apparently no problems.
 
ianmatth said:
I usually get my beers to drop another point or two in secondary, plus I let the temperature go a little higher since I kept it at 63* in primary, so I think it will get a little more attenuation and thus put out some more CO2. I could also thrown in a little bit of sugar if I wanted to make sure it would produce CO2, but that might throw off the flavor if I do it before bottling.
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Sounds like you're transferring before fermentation is complete. Raising the temp will help keep the yeast active at the end of fermentation, which is why you're getting a couple more gravity point drops. Why not just keep the beer in primary and raise the temp to what you do in secondary? What are you trying to achieve with a transfer to another fermentation vessel? Fatcity's just trying to help you keep your beer fresher longer. Keeping your beer on the yeast in primary allows the yeast to help clean up your beer at the end of fermentation and also avoids introducing oxygen to the beer, thus minimizing oxidation. I used to secondary (as we were taught in the mid 2000s) but after hearing the benefits of keeping in primary, that's all i've done for years.

If you insist that your beer is better by transferring, more power to you. I'm just trying to help give some background as to why it's being suggested. Cheers!:mug:
 
I find that straining gets rid of some hop elements that might result in a grassy taste. Some might suggest I strain from the kettle into a carboy before I even add the yeast, but then the beer takes much longer to carbonate. I also get better attenuation if I ferment in the kettle. I could keep it in the kettle longer, but I don't feel that the kettle protects the beer from oxygen nearly as well as a carboy with an airlock would, so I don't want it sitting in the kettle after most of the fermentation has occurred. Also, if I use pellet hops for a dry hop, I end up with hop dust if I don't do at least one transfer before I bottle, so I transfer before adding a final dry hop using leaf hops if I had previously used pellet hops because that hop dust seems to give a little bit of a harsh taste. So while I may be introducing more oxygenation with my method, I get better attenuation, no grassy or bitter flavors from the hops, and it's much quicker to carbonate. In reality I could probably get everything I'm looking for and much less oxygenation if I had a stainless steel conical fermenter, but my stainless steel kettle was only $35, and a stainless steel conical would cost hundreds of dollars.
 
ianmatth said:
I find that straining gets rid of some hop elements that might result in a grassy taste. Some might suggest I strain from the kettle into a carboy before I even add the yeast, but then the beer takes much longer to carbonate. I also get better attenuation if I ferment in the kettle. I could keep it in the kettle longer, but I don't feel that the kettle protects the beer from oxygen nearly as well as a carboy with an airlock would, so I don't want it sitting in the kettle after most of the fermentation has occurred. Also, if I use pellet hops for a dry hop, I end up with hop dust if I don't do at least one transfer before I bottle, so I transfer before adding a final dry hop using leaf hops if I had previously used pellet hops because that hop dust seems to give a little bit of a harsh taste. So while I may be introducing more oxygenation with my method, I get better attenuation, no grassy or bitter flavors from the hops, and it's much quicker to carbonate. In reality I could probably get everything I'm looking for and much less oxygenation if I had a stainless steel conical fermenter, but my stainless steel kettle was only $35, and a stainless steel conical would cost hundreds of dollars.
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Wait.... You ferment in your boil kettle because your beer carbonated faster? How do you figure that? Also why do you get better attenuation fermenting in the kettle versus putting it in a carboy or bucket ? It's all the same.

I've heard it all now!

I agree that removing hop matter after the boil is key if you plan to ferment out and have the beer on the yeast long to avoid any vegetal notes from popping up. Bu your fermenting you beer on the hot and cold break material and the hops in your case.
A good chill and cold break, whirlpool with a simple paddle and let it sit. Drain the kettle with a valve or even siphon and you get amazingly clear wort.
 
FATC1TY said:
Wait.... You ferment in your boil kettle because your beer carbonated faster? How do you figure that? Also why do you get better attenuation fermenting in the kettle versus putting it in a carboy or bucket ? It's all the same.

I've heard it all now!

I agree that removing hop matter after the boil is key if you plan to ferment out and have the beer on the yeast long to avoid any vegetal notes from popping up. Bu your fermenting you beer on the hot and cold break material and the hops in your case.
A good chill and cold break, whirlpool with a simple paddle and let it sit. Drain the kettle with a valve or even siphon and you get amazingly clear wort.
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While I also question the "faster carbonation" and "better attenuation" aspects of fermenting in the boil kettle, I see nothing inherently wrong with doing so either. I seen other brewers (or another brewer) who ferments directly in the boil kettle and I personally like the idea - just too scared to try it myself :D

There are many folks who basically put their entire boil kettle in their fermenter(s) - break material, hops, and all. Yooper would be a high-profile example of someone who does this, though she does state that she'll leave behind some small amount of the thickest hop/break sludge but I assume it accounts for <5% overall (so 95% of the break/hops are going in). She also indicates that she has great clarity on her beers. I also have taken this similar stance. I drain everything but the seeds into my fermenters :D, and my beers are coming out very clear.

I do not believe there is a direct correlation between "clear wort" and "clear beer". There are always the potential for haze causing proteins to occur at cold temperatures regardless of how clean the wort is at hot temperatures. Additionally, break material has said to be useful for the yeast and what doesn't get used simply settles out (as is evidenced in the boil kettle when whirlpooling and allowing to settle - it's no different in the fermenter).

But I still can't quite grasp the "faster carbonation" and "better attenuation" concepts completely.
 
stpug said:
While I also question the "faster carbonation" and "better attenuation" aspects of fermenting in the boil kettle, I see nothing inherently wrong with doing so either. I seen other brewers (or another brewer) who ferments directly in the boil kettle and I personally like the idea - just too scared to try it myself :D

There are many folks who basically put their entire boil kettle in their fermenter(s) - break material, hops, and all. Yooper would be a high-profile example of someone who does this, though she does state that she'll leave behind some small amount of the thickest hop/break sludge but I assume it accounts for <5% overall (so 95% of the break/hops are going in). She also indicates that she has great clarity on her beers. I also have taken this similar stance. I drain everything but the seeds into my fermenters :D, and my beers are coming out very clear.

I do not believe there is a direct correlation between "clear wort" and "clear beer". There are always the potential for haze causing proteins to occur at cold temperatures regardless of how clean the wort is at hot temperatures. Additionally, break material has said to be useful for the yeast and what doesn't get used simply settles out (as is evidenced in the boil kettle when whirlpooling and allowing to settle - it's no different in the fermenter).

But I still can't quite grasp the "faster carbonation" and "better attenuation" concepts completely.
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I have, and sometimes still do, put the whole thing in the fermenter. IPA's I use a fair bit of hops, and usually whole leaf in the boil. I have a valve on my kettle and I have no need to pour the whole thing into the fermenter. There's no real reason to, but there isn't any reason NOT to if it's more work. My point was, he's anal about getting clear beer and moving it around, but turns around in the same sentence and ferments on it all.. Most people are over the top about trying to get clear wort. Clear wort, agreed, doesn't mean clear beer.

My point in explaining it to him, was to maybe give him some ideas, as he seems a bit confused.

You won't wrap your head around the whole, "faster carbonation and better attenuation because of keeping it in the kettle" idea because it's false. It simply not the case, and has zero impact on the outcome of carbing faster in the bottle and getting a lower gravity. Thats a function of yeast and sugar, not the medium holding it.
 
Fermenting in a boil kettle aside (though I find this nuts) the geometry of the fermentation vessel can affect the flavor of the finished beer. Beer fermenting in a Yorkshire Square will likely taste different from the same beer fermenting with the same yeast in a cylindroconical shaped vessel. The bk probably is wider than it is tall, and will have different properties than a carboy or BB. Personally, I think all these differences in flavor from vessel shape will be entirely overruled by fermenting on your boil hops, hot break, cold break, and any other thing you throw into your beer during boil... I just wanted to point out that vessel shape does in fact affect the final beer.
 
I've done plenty of head to head comparisons. I honestly can't explain why I get better attenuation by fermenting in the kettle, I thought it might have to do with the metal, which is why I thought I would get similar results with a stainless steel conical.

With the faster carbonation, it isn't the kettle, and I had to do quite a bit of experimentation to figure out that if I strained the beer from the kettle into the primary it would take 3-5 weeks to get proper carbonation in my DIPAs, although I have no idea why that is. If I wait until after primary fermentation to strain, even my 1.080+ OG DIPAs fully carbonate in less than a week, and end up with an ideal level of bottle conditioning after 2 weeks. They take about the same time if I don't strain at all (normal method of racking to secondary), but then my highly hopped beers would end up with grassy flavors.
 
ianmatth said:
I've done plenty of head to head comparisons. I honestly can't explain why I get better attenuation by fermenting in the kettle, I thought it might have to do with the metal, which is why I thought I would get similar results with a stainless steel conical.

With the faster carbonation, it isn't the kettle, and I had to do quite a bit of experimentation to figure out that if I strained the beer from the kettle into the primary it would take 3-5 weeks to get proper carbonation in my DIPAs, although I have no idea why that is. If I wait until after primary fermentation to strain, even my 1.080+ OG DIPAs fully carbonate in less than a week, and end up with an ideal level of bottle conditioning after 2 weeks. They take about the same time if I don't strain at all (normal method of racking to secondary), but then my highly hopped beers would end up with grassy flavors.
Click to expand...

I will assure you, that the metal has nothing to do with the attenuation.

I will also go ahead and put it out there that your carbonation has without a doubt NOTHING to do with your kettle, or straining.

Carbonation is a function of having viable yeast in solution, simple sugars for the yeast to eat, and a closed vessel to build pressure in. Alcohol levels do effect yeast, but you are talking about moving beer before alcohol has even been introduced into the process.

Your beers end up with grassy flavors because you don't know how to formula a reasonable recipe. I've seen your threads around here, and you see to struggle with the idea that less is more.

Anyways, I'm not trying to bag on you. It's your beer, Lord knows I wouldn't want to drink it, and if you love it, then I'll be damned, thats all that matters!

Cheers.
 

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