Saison yeast for cider...

One of my friends suggested making a cider with saison yeast, thought it sounded interesting, has anyone done it?

sounds like a great idea if you have a way to keep it warm enough. Let us know how it turns out.


I'm using S-04 and am considering dry hopping a small portion of it with a modest amount of amarillo. we all have to experiment...

Would an aquarium heater be able to keep the temps up high enough for this you think?

3711 can do its thing at slightly lower temperatures (75ish), you could give that one a whirl if it's still available. At any rate, I'm interested to learn how this one turns out.

Sounds yummy...please do it and post results! :rockin:

RockfordWhite said:

Would an aquarium heater be able to keep the temps up high enough for this you think?

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as kyleobie said I think you won't actually need that hot a temperature if you pick the right yeast strain. I made a beer with Saison II WLP566 and WL recommended 68F-78F.

FYI:
WLP566 Belgian Saison II Yeast
Saison strain with more fruity ester production than with WLP565. Moderately phenolic, with a clove-like characteristic in finished beer flavor and aroma. Ferments faster than WLP565.
Attenuation: 78-85%

What is this infatuation with making saisons that NEED to be feremented high?

You get tons of character and great flavor from using a saison yeast in the high 60s or low 70s. It doesn't need to ferment at 80°F to be a great beer.

In fact, I'd say that the beer can be better at lower temps. The only reason you should ferment that high is if you don't have a means to temperature control.

As for Saison cider...I'm very curious to see how that would turn out. That would be one funky ass apfelwein.

DeathBrewer said:

What is this infatuation with making saisons that NEED to be feremented high?

You get tons of character and great flavor from using a saison yeast in the high 60s or low 70s. It doesn't need to ferment at 80°F to be a great beer.

In fact, I'd say that the beer can be better at lower temps. The only reason you should ferment that high is if you don't have a means to temperature control.

As for Saison cider...I'm very curious to see how that would turn out. That would be one funky ass apfelwein.

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As far as my experience goes I have to get it up there in temps or it will just sit at a high stuck gravity. Believe me I don't like to go through the hassle of raisin temps.

For the OP I think that sounds very interesting and I do have a saison almost ready and might have a cake to pitch on. I must ponder this

I will keep you guys posted on what i do, I'm thinking for my first attempt at this 'saison-cider' i'm just gonna keep the recipe as basic as possible (apple cider and brown sugar), then maybe future iteration add other stuff if necessary... Or maybe add extra flavors to the secondary if i see fit

DeathBrewer said:

What is this infatuation with making saisons that NEED to be feremented high?

You get tons of character and great flavor from using a saison yeast in the high 60s or low 70s. It doesn't need to ferment at 80°F to be a great beer.

In fact, I'd say that the beer can be better at lower temps. The only reason you should ferment that high is if you don't have a means to temperature control.

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I Agree!!!!!! I use the White Labs platinum strain WLP 566 and it chugged right through a high gravity beer fermented at 65F. I just gave it a swirl everyday or so once the really active stage had completed. Came out at 10 % ABV

A lot of people are afraid to use the "swirl" because of misplaced fear of oxidation...perhaps that's the issue. Anyway, raising the temp at the end of fermentation isn't going to hurt it, but it's not necessary to ferment a Saison at high temps at all. It's simply perfect for those that MUST ferment at high temps.

Looking forward to the results of this experiment, RockfordWhite.

Bendbiker said:

sounds like a great idea if you have a way to keep it warm enough. Let us know how it turns out.

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Use 3711. Its a fantastic yeast and doesn't really need to be all that warm. Pretty typical ale yeast ranges.

DeathBrewer said:

A lot of people are afraid to use the "swirl" because of misplaced fear of oxidation...perhaps that's the issue. Anyway, raising the temp at the end of fermentation isn't going to hurt it, but it's not necessary to ferment a Saison at high temps at all. It's simply perfect for those that MUST ferment at high temps.

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It is misplaced to fear the swirl, but I believe people are afreaid for fear of oxidation. If your beer has been fermenting with an airlock on, you've got a nice layer of CO2 on top of the beer. No oxygen = no oxidation. The only issue with swirling is stirring up the yeast if you are looking to get them to settle out. Now if you take the airlock off and let air in, that is different, but who would do that?

So I am going to use WLP565 (566 is not in production any more) and I found a farm nearby that has fresh pasteurized cider... Like i said I am going to use just apple cider and brown sugar (possibly honey)... Depending on how it tastes I may add some stuff after primary fermentation is complete... The other reason I am excited about this is when i rack it i will have an awesome yeast cake to make an actual Saison on top of... Results starting next week, stay tuned HBT!

Update:

Got all the cider today, got a starter going, tomorrow or monday gonna pitch...

Very simple recipe, 5 gallons apple cider, 4 lbs dark brown sugar WLP 565.... Will update with OG when I pitch...

Ok so i got this started today... Had a 1/4 gallon starter goin for 48 hours, then from there it was simple... 5 gallons of apple cider, 4 lbs of dark brown sugar pitched the yeast now i'm gonna let it chill for 7-10 days, rack it off the yeast cake... I will test it then and decided if i want to add anything extra in the secondary...

OG: 1.080

RockfordWhite said:

Would an aquarium heater be able to keep the temps up high enough for this you think?

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I also made a Saison this summer (1.076 OG) w/ WLP566 --- but, I ramped from 78 to 88 and held it there in a tub of water with an aquarium heater. Worked great and had a very stable temp the whole time. The beer turned out great, although I underpitched and it stopped at 1.012.

Beware of slime growing in the tub however...

RockfordWhite said:

Ok so i got this started today... Had a 1/4 gallon starter goin for 48 hours, then from there it was simple... 5 gallons of apple cider, 4 lbs of dark brown sugar pitched the yeast now i'm gonna let it chill for 7-10 days, rack it off the yeast cake... I will test it then and decided if i want to add anything extra in the secondary...

OG: 1.080

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I just stumbled on this thread...I have a batch of Saison cider bubbling away started 10/11: 5 gal local fresh cider, 3lb brown sugar, fresh ginger, tannin, acid blend, yeast nutrient, pectic enzyme, WLP565, OG 1.066. I didn't use a starter, so it took its time getting going. After ~24 hours it was (and is) going vigorously. I'm not sure of the temp, but its wrapped up in blankets and by feeling the fermenter I'd guess its in the high 70's-low 80's. I'll let you know how it's doing when I rack it.

I tested mine, gonna rack on saturday, it is a bit bland, so i am thinking of blending it with something in the secondary... thoughts?

How was the flavor of your original cider? That is the first place I'd look. Although, I recall that some Belgian yeast can metabolize comounds that others don't. I too went ahead and used the Saison yeast (II strain) on 5 gal. I let it go for 24hrs with the native bugs before adding the yeast. I haven't tasted it yet. I plan on saving the yeast cake and using it on a future Saison. That could be interesting.

If it really is that bland, you might try adding some spices. You might also back sweeten it when it is done. The drier the finished product, the more you notice the flavors, or the lack of them.

Awesome idea.

Racked it to secondary, it's very cloudy and had a ~1.001 gravity.... so it's around 10% alcohol... RIght now it tastes like a chardonnay with hints of apple... I have an extra half gallon in a gallon jug which i am going to experiment with added other flavors, so i can be sure before i risk an entire batch... This may still be a few months away...

I racked to the secondary on 10/20. Gravity 0.995. With a saison yeast?? This blew me away. It's (obviously) pretty dry. It's in the secondary to settle for about a week, then to the bottle. The smell and taste at racking were very nice (but dry). I plan to bottle condition, so I'll back-sweeten with a bit of splenda and maybe a bit of apple essence if it needs it. I'll let you know if it works...

I am planning on testing back sweetening it with an extra half gallon i have... i plan on letting mine sit a lot longer in the secondary, i'm thinking that possibly carbonating it could add some interesting flavors that are not realized when it's still... but yes, I am def surprised how dry it got even w/ saison yeast...

Wow... just tried the secondary... did not like the taste all that much right now... I plan on letting this sit to mid december, if it seems like it is getting worse I will add concentrated fruit juice to try and turn it around and hopefully be able to keep it goin...

It's my understanding that apple juice is mostly made of fructose, which makes yeast very happy. Fermenting without added complex sugars will often result in a cider without leftover sugars. For this reason I've been thinking about making a cider with saison yeast soon because my apartment is hot as balls and higher temps usually result in yeasts kicking out more esters. My hope is to get a nice, dry, fruity/estery cider.