Ive drank a handfull of german beers. It seems to me that they all have a very similar taste. Like they use the same base malt. Even different styles from hefe to pils. Can anyone tell me what this malty almost sweet flavor is coming from???????????
German Beer
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homebrewer_99
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They're made from REAL barley malt and not overly bitter like American beers, would be my first guess...
Trivial trivia: The first German beer recipe was found in Kulmbach in 800 BCE.
Trivial trivia: The first German beer recipe was found in Kulmbach in 800 BCE.
menschmaschine
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While I agree with HB_99... I generally always do, and if I may add... German beer is generally malt-focused. Not only is it not hop-focused, it's not even really balanced. There's a definite weight towards malt flavor. I think you have a good observation about base malt. Most German beers have a large percentage of German Pilsner malt and I think German Pilsner malt has a fairly distinct flavor... even slightly different than Belgian Pilsner. Combine this with clean lager yeasts (except of course for weizens), and only a limited variety of German noble hops, and I think you've got your common flavor profile.
, and if I may add... German beer is generally malt-focused. Not only is it not hop-focused, it's not even really balanced. There's a definite weight towards malt flavor. I think you have a good observation about base malt. Most German beers have a large percentage of German Pilsner malt and I think German Pilsner malt has a fairly distinct flavor... even slightly different than Belgian Pilsner. Combine this with clean lager yeasts (except of course for weizens), and only a limited variety of German noble hops, and I think you've got your common flavor profile.
homebrewer_99
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While I agree with HB_99... I generally always do
...which is not a bad thing...
...especially if you drank the same style...The problem with German beer is they are restricted to the confines of the Reinheitsgebot and therefore only have a few styles. But they do it so well!!
Personally, I associate Pilsner malt with German beer since it gives a distinctly sweet and complex malt flavor you don't get with other malts. A local brewpub here uses mostly German Pils as the base malt, and even in their higher IBU beers the malt really comes through.
- Eric
- Eric
Jack
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Plus, they're mostly lagers... And as an ale guy myself, find that I have to change my expectations when drinking a lager. They're subtle and extraordinary, just not in the same way as an ale.
But to answer strictly to OP... What's been said above. But... Does anyone else find that German lagers tend to be a hair drier than their American craftbrewed counterparts?
But to answer strictly to OP... What's been said above. But... Does anyone else find that German lagers tend to be a hair drier than their American craftbrewed counterparts?
menschmaschine
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Not having drank too many Am. micro/craft brewed commercial German-style lagers (I usually stick to the German or my own
), I wouldn't be surprised if that's not a fair assessment. It's not an easy task to get a good level of attenuation out of a malty, dextrinous wort. The Germans have really perfected lagering and getting the most out of the wort while most Am. craft brewers who brew German-style lagers are trying their best with varied success.
Soulive
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Maybe its from the decocting. Lets be honest, the Germans don't screw around when it comes to bier...
homebrewer_99
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Beer is serious stuff to a German...
EdWort
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They're made from REAL barley malt and not overly bitter like American beers, would be my first guess...
Trivial trivia: The first German beer recipe was found in Kulmbach in 800 BCE.
I love a good Kulmbacher. What's BCE? Don't you mean 800 BC?
Soulive
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BCE = Before Common Era...
Kaiser
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You'd be surprised how rare decoction has become in German brewing. Especially when it comes to the ligher styles like Pilsner and Helles. None of the really big breweries (Bittburger, Warsteiner, Radeberger) use decoction for their beers.
I have noticed that difference as well, but want to wait until I'm back in Germany for field observation. Hops may have something to do with it, but I think it is the mashing that may make a difference. I have yet to brew conclusive experiments, but I think that a single infusion mash may not give you that German taste. Before you start adding a protein rest I have to tell you that most German brewers dough in above that rest at around 140F. If you want to give it a try, a state of the art mashing schedule for German Pilsners is:
dough in at 140F
heating with 2-3 C/min
30 - 40 min at 145F
heating with 2-4 C/min
20 - 60 min at 160F
heating
10 - 20 min at 170F
This schedule may produce a different wort composition than a single infusion mash even if both have the same fermentability. But I'm only speculating here since decoction and having a special malt that we don't get here is not the reason why German beers taste different.
Kai
Soulive
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Why is that Kai? I know the malt is a lot more modified these days, but I can't see that compensating for decocting. Evan! got me into decocting and I love the results...
Kaiser
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It costs more energy and more so it costs more time. There have been a number of studies that, at least for light colored beers, decoction doesn't add anything that couldn't be added otherwise or hardly any of the trained tasters would be able to taste a difference. The "robust" character that it adds (or is supposed to add) doesn't go well with the delicate nature of the German Pils either. In addition to that it was more of a southern German thing as well. The northern German parts, which were influenced by the british infusion mashing techinque, never had a decoction tradition anyway.
Kai
Soulive
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Very interesting. I didn't realize northern DE was influenced by Britain. Thanks for educating me on that...
Kaiser
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Very interesting. I didn't realize northern DE was influenced by Britain. Thanks for educating me on that...
I came across that when reading about the history of Koelsch brewing. And the traditional brewery I visited when I went back last year doesn't do decoction either.
There has been a big discussion on the NB forum about that, which led me to contact Warsteiner and ask them how they brew because one of the members was very convinced that they must decoct their beers and I told him that it is very unlikely that they do that. And they don't.
I'll pay more attention to that when I go back for vacation next week. And even try to talk to brewers about that.
I don't want to say that you all have to stop decocting now. Home brewing is great in keeping these practices alive, but you need to keep in mind that you don't have the malts of old anymore and that if you decoct, you need to adapt the process to the modern malt. Something that I want to ask as well.
Kai
Soulive
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Good point about combining an old technique with new grains. I will be over there in October and I'm hoping someone at Weihenstephaner will enlighten me. Hopefully they're not too secretive...
menschmaschine
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+1. I think it's good to have the malt analysis for the base malt... doesn't SNR essentially give you an idea where your first rest temp. should be (acid rests aside)?
Kaiser
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They should not be about that. The problem is more getting a tour with personal that can answer these questions
Mensch, I have a hard time getting malt batch specs (not average specs) from Weyermann. They won't release them to small consumers and my supplier (Crosby Baker) doesn't have them either. I plan to contact North Country malt to see if they can send batch analysis results with the Best Malz they are selling.
I was also trying to find Spitzmalz in the US. But it doesn't seem to be available here. Spitzmalz is severely undermodified malt and used by Germans to compensate high malt modification because they can't use unmalted barley instead (purity law thing).
Kai
homebrewer_99
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What Soulive said...it's the new BC...
homebrewer_99
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I'm not an AG'er, but isn't that something you guys can do yourself?
menschmaschine
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I ordered a bunch of different types of malt from them, including a sack of Best Malz pilsner malt. They sent the malt analysis for every type I ordered... even the Cara-Pils. It's really improved my brewing.
Kaiser
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Is that malt analysis for the particular batch or an average for the harvest?
Looks like I'll be doing that as well. I think I should also contact Weyermann about that. How difficult could it be to set up a database online where home brewers can plug in the number from the malt bag.
Kai
menschmaschine
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I'm fairly certain it's specific to the malt in the sack. Here's what the Pilsner malt states on Best Malz letterhead:
I don't know why these aren't more readily available. I imagine they are a necessity for the pro-brewer. These should be included with every sack of grain, if you ask me... like a chain-of-custody.
You probably already know this, but Noonan has a great webpage on interpreting malt analyses here:http://brewingtechniques.com/bmg/noonan.html
Kaiser
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Yes, this seems to be a batch specific analysis. But it doesn't list the soluble nitrogen ratio. At least not in a way that I know it.
It shows 0.7.. soluble nitrogen in 100g and it also lists 10.9g protein in 100g. Generally the soluble nitrogen (SNR) is in the order of 35 .. 46% of the protein. 0.7g of 10.9 g is barely 10%.
Hartong 45 can also be used to judge modification, at least to some degree, but even though it is generally close to SNR, it is not the same.
Kai
It shows 0.7.. soluble nitrogen in 100g and it also lists 10.9g protein in 100g. Generally the soluble nitrogen (SNR) is in the order of 35 .. 46% of the protein. 0.7g of 10.9 g is barely 10%.
Hartong 45 can also be used to judge modification, at least to some degree, but even though it is generally close to SNR, it is not the same.
Kai
I've also noticed a flavor particular to many German biers. I love many doppelbocks and Oktoberfests, and they have that special something in common.
I don't know *what* they share in common, but your comment inspired me to grab a Hofbrau Maibock from the fridge. Yep, tastes German! Mmmm...
I don't know *what* they share in common, but your comment inspired me to grab a Hofbrau Maibock from the fridge. Yep, tastes German! Mmmm...
FireBrewer
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I'm not an AG'er, but isn't that something you guys can do yourself?
Modification is is something that malting houses control. Brewers can adjust the mash schedule to compensate for undermodified malts with different temperature rests (or decoction, as mentioned) but unless you're specifically looking for undermodified malt, you'll find mostly well-modified malt for brewing.
homebrewer_99
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Check, I was thinking if you guys purchased the unmodified malt you could mod it yourself. It wasn't anything I've ever read about on this forum so I was curious. Thanks.
menschmaschine
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It can be calculated from the website I posted previously with what's on the analysis. I don't have it in front of me, but I calculated the SNR of that malt to be about 41%. For single decoction mash on this malt, and per Noonan, I put my initial rest in the low 130's. This greatly increased my head formation/retention (as opposed to doing the standard protein rest at 120-ish).
FireBrewer
Assistant Brewer
Check, I was thinking if you guys purchased the unmodified malt you could mod it yourself. It wasn't anything I've ever read about on this forum so I was curious. Thanks.
No problem. Probably could, I've heard talk of home-malting. From what I understand it's a science unto itself though, not easy.
Cheers!
Not an AG brewer (yet), but I love me some German Pils: Wernesgruner, Dinkel Acker, etc.
So, even Pilsner malts these days are modified to where a simple infusion, with maybe a protein rest, is adequate?
So, even Pilsner malts these days are modified to where a simple infusion, with maybe a protein rest, is adequate?
menschmaschine
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I think it could go either way, BUT if you do a protein rest, you really need to know the Soluble Nitrogen Ratio so as not to get the protein rest temp. too low. With most Pilsner malts, when doing a step- or decoction mash, it's usually safer to do a Protein/Saccharification rest in the low 130's and then a dextrin rest in the mid to upper 150's.
FireBrewer
Assistant Brewer
The short answer: yes. In the majority of cases, a single infusion mash is adequate. A protein rest can even be detrimental in some cases:
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