First Brett

I want to start using Brett...
The plan is to BIAB a 2 gallon batch.
Build up a big starter of Brett L Wyeast 5526 (I've read differences about WL version and I don't want theirs).
And pitch a big starter from Crooked Stave Vieille dregs. (Is this 100% Brett? Does anyone know the strain(s) in it?
I've read that 100% Brett beers' taste benefit from acidity added. When/How should I do this?

Acidity - you can get this in many ways. If you continually aerate your brett starter you'll get a lot of acid. Add the whole thing to your 2 gal batch and it will impart some acidity to your beer. You could intentionally sour it using lactobacillus or pediococus, but then it wouldn't be a 100% beer. Or you could add some food grade acid or vinegar. There are lots of threads here about how to make a "quick sour".

I don't believe Vielle is 100% Brett, it likely also includes a saison strain. Not sure you'd get much of that without building it up from a starter though, so pitching the dregs may give you mostly just their brett. But be aware you might get some saison flavor in there, especially if the bottle you have is fresh. I believe they use a special "house" brett blend, so it will give you something you can't buy commercially.

is your intention to brew a 100% brett beer? or are you looking to get some brett funk and fruit character in your beer? brett behaves very differently when used alone, vs. using it as a secondary yeast...

geoffey said:

If you continually aerate your brett starter you'll get a lot of acid. Add the whole thing to your 2 gal batch and it will impart some acidity to your beer.
Or you could add some (...) vinegar.

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i wouldn't do either of these. vinegar, AKA acetic acid, doesn't taste nice in beer. over-aerating brett produces acetic acid.

geoffey said:

You could intentionally sour it using lactobacillus or pediococus, but then it wouldn't be a 100% beer. Or you could add some food grade acid (...). There are lots of threads here about how to make a "quick sour".

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adding a bit of food-grade acid is probably the easiest way to go. some people balk at this technique saying that the results aren't as nice as using lactic acid bacteria, but in you case i don't think you're looking for a big pH drop or strong perceptible sourness.

you can't quick-sour with pedio - it will take months for that bacteria to do its thing.

geoffey said:

I don't believe Vielle is 100% Brett, it likely also includes a saison strain. Not sure you'd get much of that without building it up from a starter though, so pitching the dregs may give you mostly just their brett. But be aware you might get some saison flavor in there, especially if the bottle you have is fresh. I believe they use a special "house" brett blend, so it will give you something you can't buy commercially.

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Crooked Stave doesn't use any sacch, so there is no saison yeast in there (at least not in the traditional sense - they get brett to give them saison flavors). their beers are brett-only, with some lacto occasionally thrown in but pretty sure there isn't any in Vielle. they do indeed use their own house brett strains.

I've used Vielle dregs before. I'm pretty sure there is lacto in there, but I do know there are multiple strains of Brett. Chad has selected different strains for their different profiles and uses them together instead of a single strain. But if you're looking for just Brett then Crooked stave wouldn't be a good choice.

Thanks sweetcell.
Yes, I want to use this BIAB to start 2 separate 100% Brett yeast cakes.
If either turns out great, I'll repeat with a larger batch.
Either way, I'll also in the future be adding some to a sacch beer.
I really just want to know exactly what these pure cultures taste like, 100% and with sacch. So my grain bill is 100% 2 row.

If I were to add straight lactic acid to 2 gallons, how many grams should I add to just get enough to enhance the flavors put off by 100% Brett ferm?

And yeah, Vieille tastes like it has lacto or something, but I've read in other places its 100% Brett. I wonder how they treat the yeast get so much tartness and acidity?

fermentology said:

I've used Vielle dregs before. I'm pretty sure there is lacto in there, but I do know there are multiple strains of Brett. Chad has selected different strains for their different profiles and uses them together instead of a single strain. But if you're looking for just Brett then Crooked stave wouldn't be a good choice.

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Is it possible that you pitched something else that had lacto in it? Crooked Stave is well known for using exclusively Brett, but I've read on a forum or 2 that lacto may sometimes be involved...

I thought I read online that lacto was in the barrels at Crooked Stave. So whether or not they pitch a pure Brett blend, the barrel aging process inoculates the beer with lacto. While many threads show homebrewers' experiences getting sour beers from CS dregs, this is the only reference from my quick Google search that contains any info from the brewery (albeit second hand from "the guy at the brewery"): https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/dregs-culturing-crooked-stave-499887/

youreanimpulse said:

I thought I read online that lacto was in the barrels at Crooked Stave. So whether or not they pitch a pure Brett blend, the barrel aging process inoculates the beer with lacto. While many threads show homebrewers' experiences getting sour beers from CS dregs, this is the only reference from my quick Google search that contains any info from the brewery (albeit second hand from "the guy at the brewery"): https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/dregs-culturing-crooked-stave-499887/

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Well, I hope not. Because my impression is that among other effects, fermentation will take longer to complete if that's the case.
How/when will I be able to tell if there is lacto in it after pitching? Or will I be able to tell from my starter?

TastyAdventure said:

Is it possible that you pitched something else that had lacto in it? Crooked Stave is well known for using exclusively Brett, but I've read on a forum or 2 that lacto may sometimes be involved...

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They use Brett exclusively for their fermentation, that doesn't mean there isn't bacteria as well.

I'm just going based off of the taste of Vielle, but I do know that Crooked Stave lowers their mash pH to I think about 4.5. I think Chad uses acid to do that, but the acidity in Vielle to me taste like lactic acid, rather then acetic acid produced by Brett.

Well, whatever's in the dregs, it's going in one of y gallon batches! How/when do you think I'll know if it has something other than Brett in it?

Also, should I lower my mash pH with some citric acid, and then also add more to the boil? Or do I need to go buy some lactic acid?

I have a million questions going into this wild brewing stuff...

TastyAdventure said:

Well, whatever's in the dregs, it's going in one of y gallon batches! How/when do you think I'll know if it has something other than Brett in it?

Also, should I lower my mash pH with some citric acid, and then also add more to the boil? Or do I need to go buy some lactic acid?

I have a million questions going into this wild brewing stuff...

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You'll know after it ferments. Lacto generally works pretty quickly. As far as lowering the pH it really depends what you want to end up drinking. Other then when I brewed my Berliner, I haven't lowered my mash pH dramatically for Brett beers, but I don't want my Brett beers to be acidic because they are usually hoppy. I add acid malt to my mash because I have alkaline water, but Brett does usually prefer a lower pH and a lower pH will help to speed up fermentation.

Here's my idea:

0.2 lbs Acidulated malt (~4%) in mash to lower pH,
Then add Citric acid to boil to lower pH even more.
Sound right? How much citric acid should I add to a 3 gal batch??

Yes, I upped it to 3 gallons, got some other bottle dregs I want to use in a separate 1 gallon batch

?

TastyAdventure said:

Here's my idea:

0.2 lbs Acidulated malt (~4%) in mash to lower pH,
Then add Citric acid to boil to lower pH even more.
Sound right? How much citric acid should I add to a 3 gal batch??

Yes, I upped it to 3 gallons, got some other bottle dregs I want to use in a separate 1 gallon batch

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Never used citric acid in beer so I can't comment.

I would only acidify the mash to get it in the correct range, somewhere around 5.2-5.4 pH. You can always lower the pH after the boil is over to 4.5 or whatever you want. Do you have a pH meter? That's probably going to be the only way to really know how much to add.

I wouldn't over complicate it.

TastyAdventure said:

Here's my idea:

0.2 lbs Acidulated malt (~4%) in mash to lower pH,
Then add Citric acid to boil to lower pH even more.
Sound right? How much citric acid should I add to a 3 gal batch??

Yes, I upped it to 3 gallons, got some other bottle dregs I want to use in a separate 1 gallon batch

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How much citric acid to add to the boil? I don't want overwhelming acidity but I definitely want it to be noticeable

TastyAdventure said:

How much citric acid to add to the boil? I don't want overwhelming acidity but I definitely want it to be noticeable

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Check out this video, it may help you a little in your goals to get some sour notes into your beer:


As for the Vieille, I'm not certain that it has any bacteria - I did try it once at the brewery, and I can't remember if I tasted any lacto...

I can tell you that St. Bretta DEFINITELY has bacteria in it! It soured an ESB beer when I dropped it into secondary, and did it quick! This beer turned out very nice actually, ended up being like a Flanders red - one of my 1 gallon projects. I pitched the dregs directly from a St. Bretta bottle, with about 1" of beer left in the bottom.

I've also done a starter of the Surette, and pitched it into a Belgian pale ale along with ECY09 and it soured and funked the beer up well, but didn't get it as sour as the St. Bretta.

The post referred to earlier was mine, when I made my first starter from a CS beer - that St. Bretta starter became thick and ropy within a few weeks, and I still have it in a 22 oz bottle with an airlock on it. Last time I tasted was about 2 months ago, and it was thinning up, and tasted like straight pears. I never pitched it into anything, I was too afraid to! It has definitely acted differently than any other culture I've propped up. From what I've read, the thick and ropy 'sickness' is caused by pediococcus bacteria.

The 'guy' at the brewery that I referred to was the guy tending the taps that day I bought the bottle. I mentioned that I intended to try and culture the dregs to make a sour beer, and he did tell me it was an excellent choice, as it was aged in the barrels, and had 'all the bugs'. This was the St. Bretta, and I've confirmed this with 2 bottles by culturing - thar be bugs in them bottles!

Here is a list I refer to quite often to inquire about what may be in the bottle to pitch/culture up:
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html

Strangely it appears as though St. Bretta is in the "Bottles with Brett" category.

I swear to you, there was bacteria in MY St. Bretta!

Wes440 said:

Here is a list I refer to quite often to inquire about what may be in the bottle to pitch/culture up:
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html

Strangely it appears as though St. Bretta is in the "Bottles with Brett" category.

I swear to you, there was bacteria in MY St. Bretta!

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The bottle says it's all brett, but I've read in several places lately that CS barrels are probably holding souring bugs now, too. My guess is primary fermentation is done by directly pitched brett, and then it picks up whatever's in the barrels.

burninator said:

The bottle says it's all brett, but I've read in several places lately that CS barrels are probably holding souring bugs now, too. My guess is primary fermentation is done by directly pitched brett, and then it picks up whatever's in the barrels.

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Agreed. I'm assuming that CS barrels stored in close proximity together are also likely to spread their various microbes to one another.

Whatever it is, it is good.

TastyAdventure said:

I want to start using Brett...
The plan is to BIAB a 2 gallon batch.
Build up a big starter of Brett L Wyeast 5526 (I've read differences about WL version and I don't want theirs).
And pitch a big starter from Crooked Stave Vieille dregs. (Is this 100% Brett? Does anyone know the strain(s) in it?
I've read that 100% Brett beers' taste benefit from acidity added. When/How should I do this?

Click to expand...

Well I brewed this Saturday. I ended up using 1/2 lb Acidulated malt in the mash to take it down to 5.2. Then after the boil I added 6.5 grams of citric acid for extra acidity. I didn't know how much to use, so I just looked at my notes from a past batch to see how much I used before to take my pH down to ~5.4 from ~5.8. Being that my mash was already at 5.2, the citric acid would obviously take it lower, but I guess that was a safe amount...