Can you secondary prematurely

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Cougfan

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at work and typing from a phone. don't have time to do a search, sorry. My hefe has been in the primary for 6 days and is still fermenting a little. I need the carboy that it is in (6.5 g). Am I going to hurt the beer by transferring to the secondary after only 6 days?
 
IF you want to brew again, get another bucket...Don't enforce your timetable on the yeasts...You're not in charge, they are. Leave them alone to do their jobs...Many of us leave our beer in primary for 3-4 weeks.

The yeasts are still doing their jobs if it is still fermenting...leave it be.

This is a game of patience, and your patience will be rewarded with great beer..if you push it you will be rewarded with mediocre beer...Even for a heffe, I would leave it in primary for a MINIMUM of 10 days...more likely 2 weeks.
 
By transferring it during fermentation, you could are removing it from that nice yeast cake at the bottom of the fermenter. There is a possiblity that you could cause the fermentation to stop prematurely.

For a hefeweizen you don't need a secondary anyway.
 
I have found this topic interesting myself. Based upon my understanding of yeast and flocculation, it really should not matter if you transfer the almost done beer off the cake. The yeast in the cake have clumped together for environmental protection because they have finished reproduction and fermentation, they have basically "gone dormant". They are just waiting around for more food and until it arrives, they are done.

The yeast that are still working are in solution and will get transferred with the beer into the secondary, where they will keep on working. I suppose an argument could be made that transferring the beer into the secondary could stress the yeast out causing them to flocculate and stop fermenting, but just some agitation really should have no affect, should actually help them out some.

As I see it, science seems to say it should not matter if you move it at this point. The dogma here seems to indicate you should not move it. Personally, I think you will be just fine moving it. I also have only been brewing for a year. Your call... :)

Let us know what you do and how it goes.
 
Denny said:
IME, reality and experience beats theory every time.
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+1 Oh guru one!!

I also back MY long primary experience up with a little Palmer.

From How To Brew

The yeast have eaten most all of the easily fermentable sugars and now start to turn their attention elsewhere. The yeast start to work on the heavier sugars like maltotriose. Also, the yeast clean up some of the byproducts they produced during the fast-paced primary phase....

The fermentation of malt sugars into beer is a complicated biochemical process. It is more than just the conversion of sugar to alcohol, which can be regarded as the primary activity. Total fermentation is better defined as three phases, the Adaptation or Lagtime phase, the Primary or Attenuative phase and a Secondary or Conditioning phase. The yeast do not end Phase 2 before beginning Phase 3, the processes occur in parallel, but the conditioning processes occur more slowly. As the majority of simple sugars are consumed, more and more of the yeast will transition to eating the larger, more complex sugars and early yeast by-products. This is why beer (and wine) improves with age to a degree, as long as they are on the yeast. Beer that has been filtered or pasteurized will not benefit from aging....

The conditioning process is a function of the yeast. The vigorous, primary stage is over, the majority of the wort sugars have been converted to alcohol, and a lot of the yeast are going dormant; but there is still yeast activity. During the earlier phases, many different compounds were produced by the yeast in addition to ethanol and CO2, e.g., acetaldehyde, esters, amino acids, ketones- diacetyl, pentanedione, dimethyl sulfide, etc. Once the easy food is gone, the yeast start re-processing these by-products. Diacetyl and pentanedione are two ketones that have buttery and honey-like flavors. These compounds are considered flaws when present in large amounts and can cause flavor stability problems during storage. Acetaldehyde is an aldehyde that has a pronounced green apple smell and taste. It is an intermediate compound in the production of ethanol. The yeast reduce these compounds during the later stages of fermentation....

Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks...will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur.
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Since it's a hefe obviously 3-4 weeks is not needed, nor does it needs to be clear, BUT I'd still wait at least 10, but like I said earlier 14 days to let the yeasties do some more work.
 
Denny said:
IME, reality and experience beats theory every time.
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A lot of experienced home brewers transfer beer during the first week as well as virtually every commercial brewery. I agree with you but I don't think reality or experience answer any questions in this thread.
 
Just for fun, a Palmer quote actually relevant to the question asked.

Palmer said:
The following is a general procedure for using a secondary fermentor.

Allow the Primary Fermentation stage to wind down. This will be 2 - 6 days (4 - 10 days for lagers) after pitching when the bubbling rate drops off dramatically to about 1-5 per minute. The krausen will have started to settle back into the beer.
Using a sanitized siphon (no sucking or splashing!), rack the beer off the trub into a another clean fermentor and affix an airlock. The beer should still be fairly cloudy with suspended yeast.
Racking from the primary may be done at any time after primary fermentation has more-or-less completed. (Although if it has been more than 3 weeks, you may as well bottle.) Most brewers will notice a brief increase in activity after racking, but then all activity may cease. This is very normal, it is not additional primary fermentation per se, but just dissolved carbon dioxide coming out of solution due to the disturbance. Fermentation (conditioning) is still taking place, so just leave it alone. A minimum useful time in the secondary fermentor is two weeks. Overly long times in the secondary (for light ales- more than 6 weeks) may require the addition of fresh yeast at bottling time for good carbonation. Always use the same strain as the original. This situation is usually not a concern. See the next chapter and the Recommended Reading Appendix for related information on lager brewing.
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Sounds like your only motivation is to get that primary freed up and not to rush the current beer to completion.

If that's the case, use your racking cane to gently stir up as much yeast as you can from the bottom of the fermenter and then rack it over to a secondary.

Your "violent" fermentation may be complete, but the abundant yeast are still cleaning up after themselves and helping to condition the beer. Transfer as much of the yeast along with the beer and your beer should pick up where it left off.
 
remilard said:
A lot of experienced home brewers transfer beer during the first week as well as virtually every commercial brewery. I agree with you but I don't think reality or experience answer any questions in this thread.
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The brewers who get good results from transferring within a week invariably have extremely rapid fermentation because of crazy high pitching rates.
 
"Allow the Primary Fermentation stage to wind down. This will be 2 - 6 days (4 - 10 days for lagers) after pitching when the bubbling rate drops off dramatically to about 1-5 per minute" Seems to be the answer. Especially if you need the equipment for another brew. But do understand that it would be good idea to pick up another bucket or carboy, because of the previously stated benefits of aging.
 
I just racked an IPA from my primary to a secondary after 6 days. I hope I didn't screw things up. I was under the impression that once the bubbling in the air lock all but stopped, you can transfer to your secondary. I'll let you know in amonth or so how it turned out.
 
Cougfan said:
at work and typing from a phone. don't have time to do a search, sorry. My hefe has been in the primary for 6 days and is still fermenting a little. I need the carboy that it is in (6.5 g). Am I going to hurt the beer by transferring to the secondary after only 6 days?
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Hahah, at 6 days, if my hydro comes in where it's expected....my hefe is getting bottled.

I personally see no reason to secondary a hefe. Brew it, ferment it, bottle it, and start drinking it........10 to 15 days in my house.

That's traditional hefe, using WL300.......other yeasts/recipes may differ. Especially if you are brewing an american style.
 
steelerguy said:
Totally agree with this. So can someone give some facts to support the theory that beer sitting on a yeast cake for weeks is better?
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It's just one way to do things that minimizes transferring the beer and has no proven disadvantages. As far as arguing the facts, I can't provide any more facts than if I asked you to provide facts to support that moving the beer sooner is better.
 
McKBrew said:
It's just one way to do things that minimizes transferring the beer and has no proven disadvantages. As far as arguing the facts, I can't provide any more facts than if I asked you to provide facts to support that moving the beer sooner is better.
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Point taken, I do agree that there is nothing wrong with leaving the beer on the cake for a few weeks. That is unless you need the fermentor like the OP! :) In which case I don't think you are going to hurt anything moving it off.

Considering I'm not arguing or feel that beer is better if you move it sooner, you are right...I would be hard pressed to come up with any facts. I have already come up with some that suggest it doesn't get better by leaving it on the cake though.

I don't want to sound argumentative here. I just keep hearing people say you should leave it on the cake for 3 weeks or so and I don't think many of them have anything to back it up. They just heard it on here and repeat it as if it is fact. Just because something gets repeated a lot does not make it true. That is all I am saying.
 
Facts that I know from personal experience:

  • When I wait 3 or more weeks before bottling, my beer tastes better than when I bottle after 2
  • I waited 4 weeks once, and 5 weeks another time, and did not have autolysis problems
  • The couple of times I racked to secondary, I did not notice any improvement in flavor or clarity over the times I did not
  • Racking is kind of a pain (I'm a lazy SOB)
  • The more stuff I have to sanitize, the more chance of me making a stupid mistake (I speak from experience here :)
  • Marmite is delicious!

So. I have no evidence that racking to a secondary is harmful, as long as my total primary+secondary time is long enough. But I have no evidence that it is beneficial either. Given that it appears to make no quality difference either way, I take the path of least resistance and do the easiest thing by skipping the secondary (see above: I'm a lazy SOB).

I do have evidence that bottling too soon is harmful. So I don't do that any more.
 
I just racked one off because I am cheap and needed the yeast cake for another batch... but I found this other thread interesting: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/4-months-primary-success-100639/

I guess my experience has shown that I am drinking beer regardless. And once I am drinking, my friends and I can pontificate the finer points of premature and past due racking.
 
I am very new here, and I'm speaking ONLY from the stuff I've read, but this seems SO much an opinion thing. I've had a few pontificate on the 1,2,3 as gospel, others say never primary, others still say secondary only after 3-4 weeks. I think if the most important thing to remember is this... Relax, Don't Worry, Have A Homebrew :) Ultimately the only way you'll personally know if "it" works for you or not, is to try. And as the adage goes... if you let it sit longer, it may work out fine even if the first few tastes arent to you're liking.... age heals most brews ;)

My 2cents.
 
I have nerver used a hydrometer to determine when a beer is done. I always let my beers go way beyond their fastest fermentation time before racking/bottling.

My latest batch to make it into a keg was brewed on 11/15, racked on 12/5, and kegged on 1/6.

A lot of this has to do with my work schedule but I have never experienced a beer that was hurt by aging. I used to rush things but I have learned that taking your time is never a bad thing. I just wish I could keep to that practice once the beer gets bottled/kegged! :D
 
The yeast in the cake have clumped together for environmental protection because they have finished reproduction and fermentation, they have basically "gone dormant".
Click to expand...

Not true. The yeast will be active for months, if you leave the batch alone.
 
david_42 said:
Not true. The yeast will be active for months, if you leave the batch alone.
Click to expand...

So you are saying that the yeast at the bottom of a fermentor have not undergone flocculation, they merely got lazy and decided to lay down on the bottom?

You should probably read this: White Labs

If you mean they are active...like a bear is active when it is hibernating then sure, I'll agree with you. But just like when a bear hibernates, they are not consuming outside nutrition but just using built up stores. Taking nothing in, letting nothing out, not interacting with the environment around them.
 
If that was 100% true then they wouldn't be able to use the priming sugar added for carbonation.
It takes a very long time for all the yeast to become dormant.

The above post is on the wrong side of antagonistic.
Debate is good but you should try to remain civil.
 
remilard said:
A lot of experienced home brewers transfer beer during the first week as well as virtually every commercial brewery. I agree with you but I don't think reality or experience answer any questions in this thread.
Click to expand...

Pitching rates and yeast management in commercial breweries aside, I think we should clarify a point before we go any further; there is quite a difference between the secondary stage of fermentation that Fix, Daniels, Palmer, et. al have written about where the beer is transferred while fermentation is still ongoing and the secondary vessel as the majority of homebrewers understand it- as a clearing vessel.
 
Denny said:
Try it...use your tastebuds. That's how I decided.
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I think that is the very best advice that any of us can offer, and I'm glad it came from you, Denny!

While the theoretical discussions are interesting albeit purely academic, one's personal satisfaction with the final product is proof positive of the validity of any given process.
 
Denny said:
Try it...use your tastebuds. That's how I decided.
Click to expand...

Wow Denny Conn's a long primary proponent also? Cool!

That was my first clue that this had merit as well...I was lucky I could compare two batches of the same recipe (Yooper's dead guy clone) The batch I was finishing (which I had secondaried) and the batch that I had accidently left in primary because I was out of town for 2 weeks.

There was a noticeable difference in quality between the two.

I really still didn't think much of it till others on here like Yooper or Biermuncher talked about it, and posted the Palmer info originally as a counter to the autolysis fear posts that spring up.

It really wasn't until I got scoresheets back for a couple contests I entered, where I submitted a mix of long primary and secondaried beers, and the long primary beers did better, and the side comments on the sheets of both contests commented on things like clarity and crispness of the flavors...I've talking a 5-10 point difference on the overall numbers, iirc.

That was enough to sell me on not rushing the beers off the yeast cake.
 
remilard, you are missing an important point...

Who cares what difference is made by yeast in suspension (after racking to secondary) or in a cake (leaving it in primary)? As you say, nobody has a statistically significant volume of evidence either way. Generally, when there is no solid evidence, that means the difference (if any) is so small is to be insignificant.

If the difference is so small as to be insignificant, then who cares which way you go? It makes no difference to the quality of your beer. So why not do the easy thing and just leave it in the primary? Why waste time fiddling with your beer for no purpose?

These threads tend to conflate two independent things into one. It's important to keep them clear:

- Long time in primary versus shorter time in primary followed by secondary (making the same total time) - there is no statistically significant evidence either way as to which of these is better.

- Not long enough time (regardless of whether you spend this in primary or secondary) - lots of very convincing evidence that this is a bad thing.
 
I am not missing anything. If there is no difference between transferring the beer towards the end of fermentation (and let us all remember please what fermentation is) and not, why did people jump on the OP? Sounds like the effort of racking is worth gaining use of the vessel to him. You are saying there will be no difference to the beer. Sounds like what he wanted to do was the right thing.
 
Orfy said:
If that was 100% true then they wouldn't be able to use the priming sugar added for carbonation.
It takes a very long time for all the yeast to become dormant.

The above post is on the wrong side of antagonistic.
Debate is good but you should try to remain civil.
Click to expand...

What does priming sugar have to do with yeast at the bottom of the fermenter? Only yeast in suspension make it into the bottle. Nobody is disputing that the yeast in suspension are active but I would guess that nobody is disputing that they would be transferred with the beer if the OP racked either.
 
That’s why I love this place. A simple question brings out the passion in all of us.

Lest we sink this thread under the weight of lofty debate, let’s revisit the OP’s original question and intent:

…My hefe has been in the primary for 6 days…
Click to expand...
Hefe’s are famously fast from grain to glass...even though the OP is not asking if he can bottle right now.

…I need the carboy…
Click to expand...
Not necessarily trying to get the beer to tap sooner…he just wants to brew again. I’m all for brewing again.

…Am I going to hurt the beer by transferring to the secondary…
Click to expand...
This is a hefe…laden with protein haze and yeast. Designed to be drunk in its youth.

Now if this were a Doppelbock or a Wee Heavy that he was intent on serving crystal clear, smooth as silk and at full maturity…then yes, he would be hurting his beer.

Check out the majority of threads asking for the “fastest brew” and hefe’s are a perennial favorite.

So to the OP:
In my opinion…you will not be hurting your hefe by transferring to a secondary after 6 days of fermentation. :D

Carry on…nicely please...
 
Good post BierMuncher! This has devolved some (maybe a lot, didn't see the deleted posts) from the question the OP originally posed.

I do have a question for you though, why would he be hurting his beer if it were a big ale? I would guess that after 6 days, fermentation would still be wrapping up, most of the yeast would have dropped out, and all that would be needed to condition would still be in suspension

Orfy - I certainly meant to offense to david_42 in my previous post. I was just trying to understand what he meant by an active yeast cake. If offense was taken, I apologize.

Denny - I usually do leave my beers on the cake for 3 weeks or so. I get lazy and don't move to secondary most of the time. The times I have moved it off after a week I have noticed no ill effects. In fact, the beer has always still been cloudy at this stage, and a lot of yeast dropped out in secondary while it conditioned and cleared. This is actually what got me thinking about the whole topic of "better beer by leaving it on the cake".

I guess I view it like this... I have a 100 house guests over for a Thanksgiving feast and after 75% of the food was gone, 90 of them stop eating and fall asleep. The remaining leftovers are not going to go any faster if the 90 guests who are done stay with me or go back home. They are done eating, it is now up to the 10 guests left who chose to stay up and keep eating to finish up those leftovers. Making 90 people who are done eating stay in the house is not going to make the food go any faster.

Sometimes those 90 people are drunk though so it is just easier to let them hang around in the house while the 10 sober ones finish up. If you need your house back now though because you want to have another party, it is fine to give them the boot! :)

Damn...that was a lame anology, I am going to blame it on the home brew I have been enjoying!
 
Oh yeah...what did you decide to go Cougfan? Since you caused this big mess you at least should tell us your decision. :)

PS - Went to the U of A...good comeback yesterday, almost pulled it off!
 
steelerguy said:
I have found this topic interesting myself. Based upon my understanding of yeast and flocculation, it really should not matter if you transfer the almost done beer off the cake. The yeast in the cake have clumped together for environmental protection because they have finished reproduction and fermentation, they have basically "gone dormant". They are just waiting around for more food and until it arrives, they are done.

The yeast that are still working are in solution and will get transferred with the beer into the secondary, where they will keep on working. I suppose an argument could be made that transferring the beer into the secondary could stress the yeast out causing them to flocculate and stop fermenting, but just some agitation really should have no affect, should actually help them out some.

As I see it, science seems to say it should not matter if you move it at this point. The dogma here seems to indicate you should not move it. Personally, I think you will be just fine moving it. I also have only been brewing for a year. Your call... :)

Let us know what you do and how it goes.
Click to expand...

Agreed 100%. and.. GO STEELERS!
 
OK, sorry to start this mess, I thought it was a simple question:D. I decided yesterday to leave it in there an borrow a 6.5 carboy from a buddy. If that hadn't worked out, I think I would have probably transferred it. I can see all of the points made here, but tend to think that it can't hurt me too bad on a hefe. If it was another kind of beer, I would probably would have left it. Oh well. Thanks for all of the good points made. I love to see the passion. As my wife has said before, its just beer. I can't seem to explain it to her. :p

BTW, I am VERY happy for you that you beat the puppies last night. I am a COUGAR which is from WSU, not UW!!!:mad: Just kidding, we have you guys tomorrow. Should be a good game. Hope you can stand up to the punishing defense :mug: GO COUGS!!!!
 
steelerguy said:
Good post BierMuncher! ...I do have a question for you though, why would he be hurting his beer if it were a big ale?...
Click to expand...

Yeast plays a bigger role than simply converting sugars to alcohol. While it's a rather subjective (read anecdotal) theory, yeast not only converts sugars to alcohol and CO2, but it also cleans up after itself (don't ask me for the scientific explanation).

Diacetyl (butter flavor) is a common bugaboo amongst homebrewers. It's often caused by stressed yeast. The most effective method for ridding the diacetyl is to simply raise the fermentation temperature and allow the beer to rest a longer period of time on the original yeast cake. This diacetyl rest is designed to insure a cleaner tasting beer. For lagers it is a necessary regimen.

Any homebrewer who follows a discipline of letting the beer "primary" for 3 weeks will most assuredly have a cleaner, smoother tasting beer.

Now...for a lot of styles, this is not desirable (such as the OP's hefe style).
 
steelerguy said:
Denny - I usually do leave my beers on the cake for 3 weeks or so. I get lazy and don't move to secondary most of the time. The times I have moved it off after a week I have noticed no ill effects. In fact, the beer has always still been cloudy at this stage, and a lot of yeast dropped out in secondary while it conditioned and cleared. This is actually what got me thinking about the whole topic of "better beer by leaving it on the cake".
Click to expand...

Your own experience trumps other people's opinions 100% of the time. My own experience is that moving the beer off the yeast that soon doesn't work well for me. If your experience is different, you should do what works for you.
 

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