Better than Apfelwein...

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svraines said:
If anyone cares, I did 5 gallons of 3068, 5 gallons juice + 1lbs cane sugar at 68F and it finished at 0.998.
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I do care :) Just checked my 3068 after two weeks in the primary. The krausen just dropped and it appears to be at 1.002. Tastes good, I like the yeast profile that the 3068 adds. Just about to check the Cotes de Blanc.
 
Ok, first taste of montrachet with no added sugar; it's much more like a dryish cider and less like very dry white wine. The two batches I made with 2# of sugar (first with monty, 2nd w/3068) seem, in comparison, stripped or something like that. I don't know how to explain it. I can envision a pitcher of the no-sugar on a picnic table whereas I can't say I'd do that with the original recipe.

This is very, very close to what I want in a cider. I will continue to play with yeast but based on this batch I think I am through adding sugar.
 
fratermus said:
Ok, first taste of montrachet with no added sugar; it's much more like a dryish cider and less like very dry white wine. The two batches I made with 2# of sugar (first with monty, 2nd w/3068) seem, in comparison, stripped or something like that. I don't know how to explain it. I can envision a pitcher of the no-sugar on a picnic table whereas I can't say I'd do that with the original recipe.

This is very, very close to what I want in a cider. I will continue to play with yeast but based on this batch I think I am through adding sugar.
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How long did you let the first two batches sit? I have a batch of 2# montrachet that sat in bottles for a year...FANTASTIC. It's still very dry but all the sharp edges have fallen off and it has a great body to it that wasn't really there at first.

The last 2# w/ 3068 I did I pulled off the cake just a tad bit early and threw it in a keg, still has just a hint of sweetness in it combined with the yeast profile but man it's MUCH better a couple months after cold conditioning. I think time really does this stuff well.
 
gwood said:
How long did you let the first two batches sit? I have a batch of 2# montrachet that sat in bottles for a year...FANTASTIC. It's still very dry but all the sharp edges have fallen off and it has a great body to it that wasn't really there at first.
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Sharp edges is a good way to put it.

The original AW was in primary for 2mos and has been bottled for 5mos. I drank most of it, but am keeping some test bottles for the 1yr mark.

The monty no-sugar batch has only been bottled for about 3wks and I like it the best of any combination I've tried so far. I look forward to a 3068 no-sugar batch; maybe I'll do that this weekend.
 
I'm going to do a 2# 3068 + 3 month, 2# +1 year Monty, and 2# Cotes de Blanc +3 month tasting this weekend...should be interesting. I plan on age the bulk of the Cotes but the 3068 is just so tempting in the keg it's been hard. I'll have to keg up another and leave it still for a while rather than carbing it so quick.
 
After 40g of the authentic and tweaked versions of Apfelwein, I have settled on the following as my favorite

4g Apple juice
1/2g Cran-Raspberry (sweetened with splenda)
1/2g Cran-Raspberry regular
2lbs corn sugar
Lalvin EC-1118

It isn't Apfelwein as the AW illuminati will remind me. It's just very good
 
I drank a gallon of the original AW at 3 months old. I find just a splash of red apple soda allows you to pound the stuff at 3 months.
 
you need a blow-off if you use beer yeast instead of the wine yeast?

how long before you bottle wih the beer yeast? i see 3 ms with wine.

thanks.


Airtight said:
Hey everyone,

After reading the post "Man, I love Apfelwein" I decided I'd try it out.

So far I've made 35 gallons of cider. I used the following yeasts and they are in order from best to worst.

1. Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen Yeast
The best by far, super tasty with a great, almost tropical fruit flavor and aroma.

2. Wyeast 3056 Bavarian Wheat Yeast
Somewhat similar to 3068. Very tasty and dry.

3. Red Star Montrachet
Extremely dry (as it should be) and smooth but lacking flavor. I made two batches with this yeast.

4. Wyeast 4766 Cider
I was suprised how mediocre this yeast was considering its an actual cider yeast. Rather plain in all aspects.

5. Wyeast 1275 Thames Valley Ale Yeast
This wasn't very good, definitely not worth doing again. Too yeasty with a barn like quality.

6. Red Star Cote Des Blancs
Insanely buttery. I even gave it a diacetyl rest but I'm not sure if that does anything with apple juice. I aged this one for several months and the butter never left. Almost felt like a slick was left on your mouth after drinking it.

For the wine yeasts I added 2 pounds of sugar and for the beer yeasts I only added 1 pound of sugar. I followed the same procedure with all the batches using Tree Top apple juice. I was very sanitary with everything and I just followed the basic Apfelwein recipe. Both of the wine yeasts were approx. 8.5% ABV and the beer yeasts averaged 7% ABV give or take.

The point of this post is that I was surprised how much better both the Wheat yeasts were compared to the Montrachet yeast. They had better flavor and aroma and finished much sooner than the Montrachet. Everything was kegged and carbonated around 14 PSI at 35-36 degrees F.

Its all gone now but I did bottle one sample of everything and the Wheat Ciders were still the best after a couple months of extra aging in a bottle. The Weizen and Bavarian Ciders were like eating an Apple flavored Jolly Rancher. It was amazing. And interestingly enough the Montrachet exhibited some Jolly Rancher qualities as well, but not nearly as strong as the Wheat yeasts.

Give both of the Wheat yeasts a try. You won't be disappointed. And for the Montrachet yeast be sure to age it for at least 3 months.

Prost!

~Airtight
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skinfiddler said:
After 40g of the authentic and tweaked versions of Apfelwein, I have settled on the following as my favorite

4g Apple juice
1/2g Cran-Raspberry (sweetened with splenda)
1/2g Cran-Raspberry regular
2lbs corn sugar
Lalvin EC-1118

It isn't Apfelwein as the AW illuminati will remind me. It's just very good
Click to expand...

Tasty...I like the idea of some cran-ras in there. The SWMBO would LOVE it!
 
FWIW, I really want to recommend the Wyeast Sweet Mead Yeast 4184. Especially if you are using a good fresh pressed local cider. The yeast leaves 2-3% of the sugars behind, preserving some of that delicous apple cider flavor.

At $8 a whack at the LHBS, i wouldnt use the 4184 on crappy store bought juice, i just use safale 04 or 05, and backsweeten. But again, in my limitied experience, the wyeast sweet mead yeast is awesome for ciders if you are starting with a good fresh pressed cider. BTW i boost mine with 2 lbs of light brown sugar.
 
gwood said:
Just pitched two batches last night. One with 3086 and one with Cotes de Blanc. Interested to here folks report back on either.
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tried the cotes last night. its a tiny bit buttery, but my wine drinkers might like it a ton. it reminds me of a white wine that has gone through MAL fermentation. I used some yeast nutrient and fermented in 65 deg temps, so maybe that has something to do with it. after two glasses though I realized I should stop "sampling" and let it finish clearing. :tank:

its at .996 right now. good stuff... Ill be using the 3068 next for sure though!

although its 10$ from my LHBS, kinda removes the prison-like cheapness of it! :D
 
199q said:
tried the cotes last night. its a tiny bit buttery, but my wine drinkers might like it a ton. it reminds me of a white wine that has gone through MAL fermentation. I used some yeast nutrient and fermented in 65 deg temps, so maybe that has something to do with it. after two glasses though I realized I should stop "sampling" and let it finish clearing. :tank:

its at .996 right now. good stuff... Ill be using the 3068 next for sure though!

although its 10$ from my LHBS, kinda removes the prison-like cheapness of it! :D
Click to expand...

3068 has been the crowd fav to date.
 
Yep, 3068 for sure. I just cracked a bottle last night which had a few pounds of blueberries in the seconday. the stuff is good at 2 months old. I just think it's a better yeast than montrachet.
 
wreckinball9 said:
FWIW, I really want to recommend the Wyeast Sweet Mead Yeast 4184. Especially if you are using a good fresh pressed local cider. The yeast leaves 2-3% of the sugars behind, preserving some of that delicous apple cider flavor.

At $8 a whack at the LHBS, i wouldnt use the 4184 on crappy store bought juice, i just use safale 04 or 05, and backsweeten. But again, in my limitied experience, the wyeast sweet mead yeast is awesome for ciders if you are starting with a good fresh pressed cider. BTW i boost mine with 2 lbs of light brown sugar.
Click to expand...

I just keep a yeast cake going from one batch to the next of 3068.
 
Just did my first batch with the 3068 yeast, 5 gals of apple juice, & 2lbs of dextrose. I've seen some varied responses in how long until ready...seems the consensus is about 3 months with the 3068?
 
I second the need for a blowoff tube for the 3068. It produced a foam that wasnt very dense, but it was soapy and gummed up the airlock for days. This was with unpasteurized juice that was a mix of Staymans and Winesaps. I finally gave up trying to keep it clean and just wrapped a towel around the neck of the carboy so that it wouldnt drip all over the carboy. That worked but encouraged fruit flies. If I use it again I will definitely use a blow off tube for the first 10 days instead of an airlock.
 
same question here, anybody?

I'm using organic, unsweetened, unfiltered apple juice from Whole Foods, I don' want to mess this up. my supplies from Austin homebrew are due tomorrow.:ban:


Mathematics said:
Just did my first batch with the 3068 yeast, 5 gals of apple juice, & 2lbs of dextrose. I've seen some varied responses in how long until ready...seems the consensus is about 3 months with the 3068?
Click to expand...
 
I have run my 3068 batches for 2mons in a carboy, then however long in the bottle. I have so much of it bottled that I normally don't get to a batch until its been in the bottle a couple of months (4mos old total).

BTW, tasted my Danstar Munich batch at bottling; it has an almost beery component (like 5%) and was not unpleasant at all; I will report back as it ages.
 
would you need a blow off using 3068 if you had 5 gallons in a 6 gallon carboy and just using apple juice and sugar.
 
I used Munich which was a dry ale yeast IIRC for wheats. And YES, it needed the blowoff tube for about 2 days, it blew all over wall, dripped on carpet, on clothes, not a pretty sight. It is not that big of a deal, its really easy and it will make the possible clean up a ton easier.
 
gwood said:
3068 has been the crowd fav to date.
Click to expand...

no kidding, I ordered 3068 from austin homebrew and i received 3638, bavarian wheat instead--I guess they just decided german wheat is german wheat and didn't feel the need to tell me. Now the THIRD time they've switched yeasts on me...

wtf
 
now that sucks when they switch it without even asking you what you are making. Man
 
brewluver said:
would you need a blow off using 3068 if you had 5 gallons in a 6 gallon carboy and just using apple juice and sugar.
Click to expand...

my 3068 with apple juice and sugar blew off 36 hours after pitching. I didn't have much head space at all tho because I used a 5 gallon carboy.

you might not need a blow off with a 6 or 6.5 gallon.
 
I have pitched apfelwein on an existing 3068 cake twice now, and no you don't need a blowoff. I do 4.5 gal in a 5gal fermenter with just an airlock. Lots of action but no foam.
 
All I can say is WOW!! I just made a 5 gallon batch of Apfelwein using 3068 yesterday...in a 6 gallon fermenter. This is THE MOST active and aggressive ferment I think I've ever seen. Pretty cool to say the least. I am not too worried about blow off, like I said, I am using a 6 gallon fermenter. Plenty of head room.
 
I've never r.eused my yeast but there is info on the process on Youtube. My Cote des Blanc is .65 cents and Safale S04 is $2.25. Its easier to just wak to the shop! If you also look in the homebrewing wiki there is a good explanation with some links
 
wreckinball9 said:
i have never reused a cake. is it as simple as pouring the new batch on the junk from the bottom of the last batch? that would mean i cant sanitize the fermenter in between batches.
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True, but unless you were doing something fancy like acid washing your yeast the yeast wasn't sanitized either.

My understanding is that "cake reuse" here at HBT implies adding new fermentables onto a fresh yeast cake you've just uncovered by siphoning off the fermented fluid. You could also do the sterile water clarifcation method called "yeast washing" in the [sticky]. It reminds me of gold panning because you are letting stuff settle out in water. Yeast panning?

My rule of thumb: if you taste the hydro sample from your primary and there are no infected flavors it is likely ok to repitch into that primary.

Reusing yeast is not a big deal if you are using Monte or other inexpensive dry yeast; it becomes more practical if you are pitching with $$$ liquid yeasts. But maybe you really like that batch of yeast, or you (like me) are geeky, or make a game of it.
 
has anyone tried going through MAL fermentation?

I really think it could smooth this stuff out nicely! :rockin:
 
This is what i've found on LALLEMAND's website. I'm also very curious about using malolactic fermentation to cut a bit of cider acidity... Pro wineries do this a lot with their whites...

Other Lallemand Products The use of immobilized microorganisms in foods has been developing for over 20 years. The immobilized microorganisms have the advantage of being easily introduced and removed from the culture media after total or partial biotransformation of the substrates. One of the typical techniques for the immobilization of microorganisms is encapsulation: this consists of coating the microorganism in a rigid alginate matrix. The technological advances of Proenol® encapsulated yeast cells in alginate gel, a natural polysaccharide extracted from seaweed, enables the substrates and metabolites to diffuse throughout the gel without releasing the yeast cells into must or wine. In the case of our encapsulated yeast, the primary benefits are convenience and improved wine quality by keeping spoilage and processing at a minimum.

ProMalic®
For naturally lowering juice acidity

Schizosaccharomyces pombe is a yeast that metabolizes malic acid into alcohol. In theory, this yeast would be a good alternative to malolactic fermentation or chemical deacidification, however, it is usually considered a spoilage organism due to its production of off-characters when left too long in the wine after fermentation. Proenol has successfully encapsulated Schizosaccharomyces pombe in double-layered alginate beads. The product, ProMalic®, is added to the juice at the beginning of the alcoholic fermentation and removed once the desired malic level is achieved. The safe use of ProMalic® Schizosaccharomyces pombe opens the door for winemakers who want an alternative to acid reduction without the production of lactic acid or chemical deacidification. ProMalic® is offered through Vinquiry.

source: http://www.lallemandwine.us/products/others.php
 
If you want to cut out some acid from the fruit, check out Lalvin 71B-1122 for your yeast, that strain metabolizes some of the malic acid in the juice, leaving it less acidy, I've done it in a few ciders before, but I don't like it that much, as I feel the acid and tannins is what makes ciders refreshing.
 
I made my apfelwein with cote des blanc...no nutrient or energizer and I haven't had a single problem.
 
I got 3 questins.

1. I made my first monty apfelwein in a ale pale. Local hbs guy told me it would be bad due to bucket after several weeks. Is this true?

2. Made second apfelwein a 3068 yeast in glass carboy. I bought the yeast energizer and yeast nutrient today. I added 2 teaspoons of both into the carboy 4.5 gallon batch. This is what same lhbs guy said to do, so I did it. I think I remember someone saying 1/2 teaspoon per gallon, so might have under pitched them a little, but better to little than too much so I read.

3. Can I reharvest the yeast, if questin number 2 is ok, and wash and reuse in beer again, and will it be better with the nutrients and energizer in it?
 
on a wine forum that I use they recommended not doing MAL fermentation. it will leave the finished cider very unbalanced. I used cote des blanc and to date that is the best apelfwien I have made. I also used the proper amount of yeast energizer. bottled it last night after 2 months in the carboy, had to do a few taste testings :drunk:

MAL is only done in a few whites like an oak aged resling. almost all reds that are over $30 a bottle have had MAL, but its mostly done to red wines

in the next few batches I will try using the lavin 71b-1122 and compare it to the cote.


I like experimenting with this stuff because its cheap, simple and the results are easy to replicate, ie, its a science experiment

:mug:
 
my apfelwein is now a month old - this is the first wine I've made..... the wine has stopped fermenting (no more pressure in the airlock), and the wine is crystal clear with a thin layer of sediment on the bottom. Is this basically done except for aging? I can stablilize and backsweeten now if I want to have it for Christmas?
 
bkvail said:
my apfelwein is now a month old - this is the first wine I've made..... the wine has stopped fermenting (no more pressure in the airlock), and the wine is crystal clear with a thin layer of sediment on the bottom. Is this basically done except for aging? I can stablilize and backsweeten now if I want to have it for Christmas?
Click to expand...

One would assume so, but the hydrometer will never fail you. Did you add sugar? What was your SG? FG?
 

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