Best Orientation for RIMS ?

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Windsors

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I built a RIMS and it would be easiest to mount it horizontally, but it seems that the best way would be vertically to make sure it is always full and the heating element completely surrounded by Wort.

I see in a lot of systems, they are mounted both ways, so I wanted to hear from those experienced with Rims which works best .

Thanks
 
If mounted vertically: and the heating element is on top, you run the risk of catching an air bubble between your outlet and the top of the element. If the element is on the bottom, any drips of water/wort will collect at the wiring.
I mounted mine horizionally with both inlet/outlet facing the same direction and used u-bolts so that I could rotate it up to "prime" it. I will eventually turn one end 180 degrees so ones up and one is down. I would make it easier fill and remove air and to drain.
 
Thanks for the reply and advice. You are right about the possibility of an air pocket if the mounted upright with the element end up. I hadn't thought of that possiblity. My element is welded to a Tri clover fitting and then clamped into 2 - 1/1/2" Tri clover T's, so it should be water tight if i mount it upright and on the bottom.

Any one else have some experience with bets orientation ?
 
Windsors said:
Thanks for the reply and advice. You are right about the possibility of an air pocket if the mounted upright with the element end up. I hadn't thought of that possiblity. My element is welded to a Tri clover fitting and then clamped into 2 - 1/1/2" Tri clover T's, so it should be water tight if i mount it upright and on the bottom.

Any one else have some experience with bets orientation ?
Click to expand...

I think you will find that most RIMS brewers have it mounted horizontally. It you have a stuck sparge you are in deep sneakers no matter which way you have it oriented. That is why I use a flow switch on the output of my rims tube which opens the connection between the PID and SSR if no flow is detected. I use the 0.15 gpm version of the GEMS FS-480 flow switch. The one pictured below is for 1 GPM. I happen to have a 1 gpm FS-480 for sale if you are interested.

J53E012-1.jpg
 
Thanks for your help Guy.

I probably need to go with a lower flow rate one like you did than the 1 gpm, otherwise I'd be interested

Where did you find yours ? I did a quick search, and they are pricey.

Bill
 
Windsors said:
I built a RIMS and it would be easiest to mount it horizontally, but it seems that the best way would be vertically to make sure it is always full and the heating element completely surrounded by Wort.

I see in a lot of systems, they are mounted both ways, so I wanted to hear from those experienced with Rims which works best .

Thanks
Click to expand...

Mine is horizontal with the input facing down and the output facing up.
 
The easiest way to mount mine would be horizontally and as Ohio-Ed said, the input would be down and the output going up. Sounds like that Horizontal works fine as long as you locate the input and output correctly.

Ohio-Ed, do you use a flow switch to cut out the element in case of a stuck mash, or do you rely on a temp probe / PID close to the rims to open the low voltage side of the SSR if it hits a temp higher than the set point ? SDGuy's way is the simplest and does not need another temp probe and PID, but just the flow switch. It also has the benefit of shutting off the element when you turn off the pump, without having to rely on rising temp to do so or having to interlock the pump with the element. (although that might be a good thing to do in either case)

thanks

Bill
 
just another thought on the flow sensor...i do batch sparging. if the sensor doesn't allow flow in both directions, it could act like a check valve and prevent complete system draining. i can't really tell by looking at the spec sheets how the innards of this thing work.

p.d.
 
Windsors said:
The easiest way to mount mine would be horizontally and as Ohio-Ed said, the input would be down and the output going up. Sounds like that Horizontal works fine as long as you locate the input and output correctly.

Ohio-Ed, do you use a flow switch to cut out the element in case of a stuck mash, or do you rely on a temp probe / PID close to the rims to open the low voltage side of the SSR if it hits a temp higher than the set point ? SDGuy's way is the simplest and does not need another temp probe and PID, but just the flow switch. It also has the benefit of shutting off the element when you turn off the pump, without having to rely on rising temp to do so or having to interlock the pump with the element. (although that might be a good thing to do in either case)

thanks

Bill
Click to expand...


I have a temp probe in the RIMs chamber. The BCS (PID), is set to heat the RIM's to about 3 degrees above my planned mash temp (to compensate for a bit of heat loss).

I do not have a flow switch .

I have the pump below the RIMs heater and the RIM's heater even with the bottom of the MT.

I don't understand how the element could dry fire if I get a stuck mash?
If the input to the pump is blocked, it is not going to pump air up through the RIMS heater. If the temp probe, shuts off the element at 157f, it should not boil and evaporate the RIM's chamber empty. The RIM's chamber is not going to drain uphill into the MT? I think (help me if I'm missing something), worst case, the RIMS heater just sits there with 157F wort in it.
 
I use a double safety. I use a GEMS FS-480 flow switch and the PID's alarm relay. The alarm relay is set for a temperature about 10 degrees higher than the set point. If you get a stuck sparge the interior of the RIMS tube will heat up, disengaging the alarm relay and sounding an audible alarm letting you know something is wrong. The positive output of the SSR output is switched off by the alarm relay and also switched off by the flow sensor. It is a very safe way of doing things and not terribly expensive if you find a flow sensor on Ebay.

flow.gif
 
paledragon said:
just another thought on the flow sensor...i do batch sparging. if the sensor doesn't allow flow in both directions, it could act like a check valve and prevent complete system draining. i can't really tell by looking at the spec sheets how the innards of this thing work.

p.d.
Click to expand...

Maybe I am a little thick headed today but what does the flow switch have to do with batch sparging or becoming a check valve? All the flow switch does is sense the flow of liquid. To the system it is just a piece of pipe. It does nothing to alter the flow of liquid at all.
 
Sawdustguy said:
Maybe I am a little thick headed today but what does the flow switch have to do with batch sparging or becoming a check valve? All the flow switch does is sense the flow of liquid. To the system it is just a piece of pipe. It does nothing to alter the flow of liquid at all.
Click to expand...

He might be asking if the flow switch would prevent of draining the RIMS heater and corresponding line/hoses? Just a guess?
 
Ohio-Ed said:
I have a temp probe in the RIMs chamber. The BCS (PID), is set to heat the RIM's to about 3 degrees above my planned mash temp (to compensate for a bit of heat loss).

I do not have a flow switch .

I have the pump below the RIMs heater and the RIM's heater even with the bottom of the MT.

I don't understand how the element could dry fire if I get a stuck mash?
If the input to the pump is blocked, it is not going to pump air up through the RIMS heater. If the temp probe, shuts off the element at 157f, it should not boil and evaporate the RIM's chamber empty. The RIM's chamber is not going to drain uphill into the MT? I think (help me if I'm missing something), worst case, the RIMS heater just sits there with 157F wort in it.
Click to expand...

Ed, if your pump is not pumping wort through the RIMS tube when the RIMS element is on, the liquid left in the RIMS tube will quickly boil and turn to steam. There is nothing to keep the element cool and the element will burn up. This has and will continue to RIMS brewers. A stuck sparge is the one caveat of a RIMS brewery.
 
Sawdustguy said:
Ed, if your pump is not pumping wort through the RIMS tube when the RIMS element is on, the liquid left in the RIMS tube will quickly boil and turn to steam. There is nothing to keep the element cool and the element will burn up. This has and will continue to RIMS brewers. A stuck sparge is the one caveat of a RIMS brewery.
Click to expand...

How will it boil if the temp probe in the RIMS heater tells the BCS to shut off the element at 157F?

I have a probe in the RIMS chamber, similar to you using the alarm feature of the PID... when your alarm sounds, my element should shut off... I think?
 
Ohio-Ed said:
How will it boil if the temp probe in the RIMS heater tells the BCS to shut off the element at 157F?

I have a probe in the RIMS chamber, similar to you using the alarm feature of the PID... when your alarm sounds, my element should shut off... I think?
Click to expand...

Here is a good explaination by CodeRage that he posted back in the RIMS for Dummies thread. If you think the BCS-460 is going to protect you from a stuck mash you are mistaken.

CodeRage said:
A PID doesn't work like that. You are thinking of a hysteresis/digital control.
PV>Set Point + dead band = turn off

The PID is calibrated to inject a continuous amount of heat at a given flow rate to maintain a temp. If you choke the flow completely off you are putting a lot of heat into a small volume of water. So the acceleration of the temperature is VERY rapid. When you auto tune a PID for a hex like this (at least in my experience) the derivative factor is very insubstantial. So with a weak derivative the predictive factor of the PID doesn't have much of an affect. If you will, the "Oh crap, I haven't hit my set point but I am going to overshoot," compensation.

The P variable will tell the PID to back off immediately but only a fixed (P)roportion of the error.

The I is a proportion of the error summed over time. So when you over shoot the I starts backing off more aggressively as more time goes by. It also increases the output over time if it isn't up to temp. Once you hit your temp the I value doesn't change because there is no error.

Here is an example of why you don't want the PID to turn off as soon as it gets to the set point. You need X amount of heat put into the mash to maintain a constant temp. If you turn it off right at the set point the temp will quickly start to fall. You want to be able to back off enough power to cause the temp to drop with out letting it crash. So you will still introduce some heat when past the set point.

So back to the small volume with lots of heat problem. Once the temp in the HEX starts to cool the PID will turn on again and cause the water to boil in about an instant, it maintains the heat injection profile based at the gpm it was tuned at. So it will continue to boil the liquid in the HEX until it reaches 0% output. Then the whole process will start over. A couple cycles of this will start to burn things up.
Click to expand...
 
Sawdustguy said:
Here is a good explaination by CodeRage that he posted back in the RIMS for Dummies thread. If you think the BCS-460 is going to protect you from a stuck mash you are mistaken.
Click to expand...

I remember reading that now... But you know, the BCS has no autotune. So I might have the same result, but I did not tune it to maintain a specific volume?

So... a flow switch you say... hmmm, may have to look a gettin me one of those. :D

I might buy a cheap element just to see what happens :cross:
 
Ed,

I should add that I have seen exactly what CodeRage has explained happen with my brew club's RIMS. It's not a pretty sight. I am also thinking about a sight tube after the RIMS tube so I can visually see the wort being pumped. I will build it out of some 304 SS stock on a lathe. It will look something like this without the Tri-Clovers. It will be thread in 1/2" NPT.

2009120413150142629_lrg.jpg
 
Sawdustguy said:
Ed,

I should add that I have seen exactly what CodeRage has explained happen with my brew club's RIMS. It's not a pretty sight. I am also thinking about a sight tube after the RIMS tube so I can visually see the wort being pumped. I will build it out of some 304 SS stock on a lathe. It will look something like this without the Tri-Clovers. It will be thread in 1/2" NPT.

QUOTE]

Wow, that's sweet.

I have a site glass after the RIM's heater on the return to the MT, but it is just a 6" piece of 1/2" polycarbonate with compression fittings and QD'd on each end. I love to watch the wort clear as it gets circulated.
Click to expand...
 
Ohio-Ed said:
I remember reading that now... But you know, the BCS has no autotune. So I might have the same result, but I did not tune it to maintain a specific volume?

So... a flow switch you say... hmmm, may have to look a gettin me one of those. :D

I might buy a cheap element just to see what happens :cross:
Click to expand...

No Autotune is of no help. Your PID is tuned for a certain flow. When the flow rate changes all bets are off. The PID will try to keep things going as if the flow rate never changed because there is no way for it to know something changed. If you are going to simulate this please be very careful. There is no way to predict what may happen. If it boils in the RIMS tube and created steam, the pressure inside the RIMS tube may build up quickly. I don't know what your RIMS tube is made of and I have no idea what will happen but I would think it pays to err on the side of caution.
 
Sawdustguy said:
No Autotune is of no help. Your PID is tuned for a certain flow. When the flow rate changes all bets are off. The PID will try to keep things going as if the flow rate never changed because there is no way for it to know something changed.
Click to expand...

So, do you think if I put an element and a temp probe in a coffee can, it would boil it dry?
 
Ohio-Ed said:
So, do you think if I put an element and a temp probe in a coffee can, it would boil it dry?
Click to expand...
I don't think that would be an apples to apples comparison. I think that if you had your PID set to control temperature at a certain flow and then stopped the flow or slowed it significantly you will simulate what Jason was talking about.
 
Ed,

I am not trying to scare you. If you monitor your brewery and if there is some sort of over temperature alarm so you can shut it down quickly that may be enough. I have the type of luck where it would happen when I ran into the house to take a leak.
 
Sawdustguy said:
I don't think that would be an apples to apples comparison. I think that if you had your PID set to control temperature at a certain flow and then stopped the flow or slowed it significantly you will simulate what Jason was talking about.
Click to expand...

See... that's the thing I never set or tuned the BCS for any volume or flow, just plugged it in. I know there are tuning parameters but I never touched them. So maybe it came somewhat tuned for the volume and flow of my mash and I was lucky (because it did a pretty good job maintaining the temps). But I wonder what would have happened had I been doing a 1 gallon batch? Or like I said earlier, mashing in a coffee can?

Don't get me wrong, I have 100% faith in Jason (CodeRage), I just don't know how the BCS is programmed and if it truely follows the same rules that CodeRage wrote about?

I like the idea of the flow switch... What I like even if I am 100% wrong in the rest of this issue, is that it would protect the element/system when there is nothing but air in the RIMs (like before you fill the MT or as your draining it), so I am interested either way. I just really don't understand and I'm trying to get my head around it.
 
Ohio-Ed said:
See... that's the thing I never set or tuned the BCS for any volume or flow, just plugged it in. I know there are tuning parameters but I never touched them. So maybe it came somewhat tuned for the volume and flow of my mash and I was lucky (because it did a pretty good job maintaining the temps). But I wonder what would have happened had I been doing a 1 gallon batch? Or like I said earlier, mashing in a coffee can?

Don't get me wrong, I have 100% faith in Jason (CodeRage), I just don't know how the BCS is programmed and if it truely follows the same rules that CodeRage wrote about?

I like the idea of the flow switch... What I like even if I am 100% wrong in the rest of this issue, is that it would protect the element/system when there is nothing but air in the RIMs (like before you fill the MT or as your draining it), so I am interested either way. I just really don't understand and I'm trying to get my head around it.
Click to expand...

Ed,

How do you know you are not getting overshoots or oscillating? Have you looked at a graph of what your RIMS is doing? I thought the BCS-460 could make such a graph to allow you to fine tune the PID? Usually a PID is tuned for a specific application. How do you know your PID is set optimally.
 
I doubt if it is set optimally. However, I have a temp probe in the MT (does not control the heat, it is just for monitoring the mash temp)... I watched it, and it stayed pretty much dead on. I also watched the gauge for the RIM's heater and saw very little overshoot. You bring up a good point about the graphs... but, I did not review them.

Again, maybe I was lucky, but I was pretty happy with the results right out of the box.
 
Guy,

I had to do a test, it was driving me crazy. So here's what I did;

- I put 5 gallons of water in my MT and started pumping through the RIMs heater.
- I set the RIMs heater PID (in the BCS) to 157F
- At about 12 minutes, I closed the valve from the MT and turned off the pump (didn't want to risk a pump). As you can see, the temp in the RIMs started to climb quickly. At this point it was hot to the touch and I had no idea just how hot it was (I was concerned that it would super heat before I'd see it reflected back on my pc), so I turned the pump back on (and opened the valve)
- I strapped a digital thermometer to the outside of the RIMS heater wrapped in insulation.
-At about 17 minutes, I shut the valve, turned off the pump and watched the thermos... The temp climbed quickly, spiked at 167 (10F above the setpoint) then settled back to the setpoint.
-I did the same again at about 27 minutes.
-I wondered how much the overshoot would be if the temp was closer to the setpoint. So I did it again (similar results) and let it sit for about 20 minutes.
-Finally, I let the rims heater heat the water to the setpoint (157f) and closed the valve and shut the pump. I got similar results but it only overshot by 8f then settled back to the 157f setpoint.

The graph below is the BCS data log. The top line is the RIMs temp probe, the bottom line is the temp prob in the MT.

RIMS Heater.jpg
 
You are a braver man than I. Maybe you are right it is and autotune problem. Let me ponder this a bit. If it is particular to using autotune I still would encourage RIMS brewers to install a flow switch because I would bet the majority of brewers use conventional PID's and autotune.
 
Sawdustguy said:
FYI.....Here is the thread that casued me to install the flow switch: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/burned-out-heating-element-rims-140750/. There is a great picture of a RIMS that almost caused a fire in the middle of the thread.
Click to expand...

I was not that brave... it was a pretty controlled test. I first ran it with the PID set at 100f so I had plenty of time to shut off the element if it got out of control.

I don't think it has anything to do with autotune. I was actually pretty impressed with the BCS out of the box.

I think the PID is "working/applying energy" to adjust the temp of the full volume and when it suddenly (in the case of a stuck mash, or my case a closed valve), it puts that same energy into heating just the volume of the RIMs chamber.

A couple things I realized during the test;

As in the case you linked to... If the RIM's runs dry (because of a leak, or it hasn't been filled yet), the element will likely burn up before the temp probe reaches the setpoint.

Also, A stuck mash means your pump input is going to be shut off... so you risk burning up a pump.

In the end... I think the flow switch is a GREAT idea. It should prevent you from burning up an element in the event of a dry fire AND it will save your pump and possible your element in the case of a stuck mash.

As I was looking at the flow switches... I noticed the ones I saw had a filtration rating between 100 and 150 microns. Is this an issue for us circulating our mashes? Also, when you see a rating like .25gpm, is that the minimum flow to engage the switch (I'm assuming that is not a max flow rate through the switch)?

Edit: A couple more thoughts...
I think if your setpoint was closer to boiling temp, you would be more likely to have the problem CodeRage described. In that case, the overshoot that I witnessed would put you above boiling and the water would quickly evaporate. At the setpoint, I was at, there was enough time for the PID to adjust before it got near boiling.
Also, I think the amount of overshoot I witnessed (about 10f), is related to the volume of my rims heater. My heater is copied from SawDustGuy's "RIMS for Dummies" thread and is 2" in diameter. A smaller volume, would likely have a much greater overshoot (possibly to the boiling point).
And finally... this test was done with a BCS-460, not a PID, they may operate differently in this situation.
 
I have been running my BCS about 6 hours a day lately...

Here is what I have seen.

Running at full flow I had a 20F rise from the INLET to the OUTLET of the RIMS tube. At 9000W there was no indication of flash boiling (noise or bubbles)

The generic PID settings in the BCS performed very well.

I shunted the flow from full to half, still, the PID did not overshoot. The outlet temperature did not exceed the setpoint to any real degree.

I dont think that one has to worry about burning up a pump with a stuck mash. I have had numerous stuck mashes and never a pump issue. These pumps do not need FLOW, they need to be WET. A week after brewing, they are still wet enough to be lubed.

I have some concerns about how my RIMS will work in the case of a stuck mash. My RIMS temp. probe extends into the RIMS tube slightly, it is NOT down-line. My pump is UPstream of the tube, RIMS outlets are up.
 
willynilly said:
I have been running my BCS about 6 hours a day lately...

Here is what I have seen.

Running at full flow I had a 20F rise from the INLET to the OUTLET of the RIMS tube. At 9000W there was no indication of flash boiling (noise or bubbles)

The generic PID settings in the BCS performed very well.

I shunted the flow from full to half, still, the PID did not overshoot. The outlet temperature did not exceed the setpoint to any real degree.

I dont think that one has to worry about burning up a pump with a stuck mash. I have had numerous stuck mashes and never a pump issue. These pumps do not need FLOW, they need to be WET. A week after brewing, they are still wet enough to be lubed.

I have some concerns about how my RIMS will work in the case of a stuck mash. My RIMS temp. probe extends into the RIMS tube slightly, it is NOT down-line. My pump is UPstream of the tube, RIMS outlets are up.
Click to expand...

So, does this mean the pump "could" pull the liquid out of your RIMs chamber resulting in a dry fire?

I have mine configured with the pump in front of the RIMs heater. My thought was that if the mash sticks... the pump cannot push air, so the output side would remain filled and thus the RIMs heater should not empty. I also have my RIM's configured with the inlet pointed down and the outlet up.

My RIMs is only 1500 watts... with 9000 watts, you may have an atomic event in the case of a stuck mash and zero flow :D
 
Ohio-Ed said:
I was not that brave... it was a pretty controlled test. I first ran it with the PID set at 100f so I had plenty of time to shut off the element if it got out of control.

I don't think it has anything to do with autotune. I was actually pretty impressed with the BCS out of the box.

I think the PID is "working/applying energy" to adjust the temp of the full volume and when it suddenly (in the case of a stuck mash, or my case a closed valve), it puts that same energy into heating just the volume of the RIMs chamber.

A couple things I realized during the test;

As in the case you linked to... If the RIM's runs dry (because of a leak, or it hasn't been filled yet), the element will likely burn up before the temp probe reaches the setpoint.

Also, A stuck mash means your pump input is going to be shut off... so you risk burning up a pump.

In the end... I think the flow switch is a GREAT idea. It should prevent you from burning up an element in the event of a dry fire AND it will save your pump and possible your element in the case of a stuck mash.

As I was looking at the flow switches... I noticed the ones I saw had a filtration rating between 100 and 150 microns. Is this an issue for us circulating our mashes? Also, when you see a rating like .25gpm, is that the minimum flow to engage the switch (I'm assuming that is not a max flow rate through the switch)?

Edit: A couple more thoughts...
I think if your setpoint was closer to boiling temp, you would be more likely to have the problem CodeRage described. In that case, the overshoot that I witnessed would put you above boiling and the water would quickly evaporate. At the setpoint, I was at, there was enough time for the PID to adjust before it got near boiling.
Also, I think the amount of overshoot I witnessed (about 10f), is related to the volume of my rims heater. My heater is copied from SawDustGuy's "RIMS for Dummies" thread and is 2" in diameter. A smaller volume, would likely have a much greater overshoot (possibly to the boiling point).
And finally... this test was done with a BCS-460, not a PID, they may operate differently in this situation.
Click to expand...

If you look again JVD_X had the meltdown with a very low flow not a dry RIMS tube. Also, if what you assume is correct, the sensor should have sensed the high temperature in the tube and had the PID shut the element down. There has to be more here than meets the eye. It makes for a good thought about this. Now I am totally befuttled.
 
Guy,

To followup on Ohio Eds questions, I saw where you you the .25gpm switch. Did you find that the 1 gpm switch was not sensitive enough in our low flow rate application ? Why did you switch it out from 1 gpm to .25 gpm ? The 1 gpm FS's are easier to find (including yours) than the .25 ones.

Thanks

Bill
 
Ohio-Ed said:
So, does this mean the pump "could" pull the liquid out of your RIMs chamber resulting in a dry fire?

I have mine configured with the pump in front of the RIMs heater. My thought was that if the mash sticks... the pump cannot push air, so the output side would remain filled and thus the RIMs heater should not empty. I also have my RIM's configured with the inlet pointed down and the outlet up.

My RIMs is only 1500 watts... with 9000 watts, you may have an atomic event in the case of a stuck mash and zero flow :D
Click to expand...

No, because my pump is UPstream of the RIMS... that means BEFORE the RIMS, not after. After would be DOWNstream

The RIMS does not run at 9000W while mashing, that is only for getting my strike water to temp. 10 gallons in 20 minutes from tap to 170F.
 
Windsors said:
Guy,

To followup on Ohio Eds questions, I saw where you you the .25gpm switch. Did you find that the 1 gpm switch was not sensitive enough in our low flow rate application ? Why did you switch it out from 1 gpm to .25 gpm ? The 1 gpm FS's are easier to find (including yours) than the .25 ones.

Thanks

Bill
Click to expand...

I saw both on ebay and bought them both. I figured I would start with the most sensitive. I can't ever see me limiting the flow in the RIMS loop to 1 gpm so that will work also.

Guy
 

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