IPA's vs IIPA's

i originally thought these two genres of beer were really similar. however after dabbling in these two classifications this past week, i've come to realize they are very, very different.

i originally LOVED IIPA's, and i thought they were just the hoppier and bigger version of their IPA counterparts. i noticed a stronger nose on these beers, and i eventually began to pick up on their higher ABVS drunk.

recently, my pallate has changed. a lot of IIPA's i've been drinking have been coming off much too sweet. the crystal seems to really pop much more in IIPA's compared to IPA's, and i must say, i'm no longer a fan of this.

DFH 90, a once beloved beer for me, came off as cloyingly sweet the other night. i originally thought perhaps the hop aroma/flavor just died down too much causing the crystal to really stand out; however, it was only 1 month bottled

is this simply a characteristic difference between these two styles? i had a bell's two hearted IPA tonight (for the first time) and absolutely loved it. not sweet at all and powered with hop flavor/aroma. i also revisited an old friend of mine, Cigar City Jai Alai (pronounced 'high lie' to your northerners) IPA. i noticed a much hopper and bitter characteristic compared to the typical IIPA.

does anyone else feel the same? am i going crazy? or have i simply just never seemed to notice?

Yes, I have noticed how IIPA's are much sweeter, not really into it. I much prefer the standard Racer 5 or SN Torpedo.

I agree and personally feel as though some of these brewers have just gone a little too over the top in both styles. A lot of the IPAs that are coming out now are just too over the top in aroma and flavor and some of the DIPAs have just gone overboard in way too much bitter, sweetness and ABV to the point where I just don't find them enjoyable any more.

Not that there is anything wrong with these beers or the hop heads that really enjoy them, I just feel that the lines of style are beginning to become a little blurred and excessive. I'm finding that I like to just stick to some of the older, more established traditional brewers.

Hmmm, maybe I should get a couple to taste test tonight. I love both IPA's and DIPA's, but I am in favor of DIPA's just because its an IPA x2, more nose, more flavor, more hops, moremoremore. I am a big fan of big beers, but there was one huge DIPA (I think double bastard?) that took me forever to finish because it was so bitter, delicious, but bitter. SN Torpedo almost had me regret I bought a 6er a few weeks ago it was bitter, but the more I drank it, the easier it went down. A great beer.

I'll have to check out the 'too sweetness' of these the next time I grab one. I want to make a DIPA/ Great Divide Hercules clone, because that is a great beer.

I'm more a fan of west coast IPAs that tend to not have as much maltiness. I think even some regular IPAs can be too sweet for me I wish I was better at describing flavors. Hopefully this new hobby will help with that. Here are examples of IPAs I love:


Pliny the Elder
Odell IPA
Green Flash West Coast IPA.
Port Wipeout
Stone Ruination
Bear Republic Racer 5
Firestone Walker Union Jack
Alesmith IPA
Ballast Point Sculpin
Lagunitas Sucks

I know some would describe PtE as a double, but at 8% it seems more in line with other west coast single IPAs.

And some DIPAs I like:

Mountain Sun Hop Vivant
Port Hop 15
Pliny the Younger
Great Divide Hercules
Avery Maharaja
Firestone Walker Double Jack
Deschutes Hop Henge
SN Hoptimum

So yeah, definitely a west coast bias. I sometimes wonder if that is due to freshness.

It's not just your tastebuds. Lots of IIPA's aren't dry enough. That isn't necessarily a flaw in the style, but it is pretty common.

The problem is probably the exact opposite of what you think. Some major brand IIPA's really are just big IPA's. They added more of everything, so you really do have more residual unfermented sugars. To get around this, some brewers add corn sugar instead of just more base grains. That will ferment out much drier and keeps them from being as heavy and sweet.

From a strict BJCP style guideline, the break point is 1.075 OG. Otherwise the descriptions are virtually identical.

Well, DFH 90 min is a particularly cloyingly sweet version of a IIPA. I just made one that is 8.5% ABV and to get it there I added 8 oz table sugar and 8 oz dark brown sugar which dried it out some (vs hitting the 1.076 OG with all malt). It finished at 1.011 and with 88 IBUs I think it is very well balanced.

I like the way Avery's head brewer put it in Jamil's CAN YOU BREW IT: MAHARAJA podcast.

He basically said that Maharaja is a big, nasty, Imperial monster and NOT a Double IPA. He said there are IPAs, Double IPAs, and Imperial IPAs... and that he would even make a case for IPA & a half, or Extra IPA at around 7.6-8.0% abv.

He went onto say that Imperial IPAs are quite malty because of the large amount of fermentables, some of which remain as residual sugars. And the reason people like beers like Maharaja is because of this balance between a lot of malt/sugar and a lot of hops/bitter. But he is also a strong proponent of the beauty of "unbalance" in a good IPA or Double IPA and generally despises the word balance in an IPA or Double IPA. I believe the same.

I much like Jkendrick above am big more on the west coast varieties, i think Green Flash's West Coast IPA is a phenominal IPA, and they did an outstanding job with that beer. That said the SN Hoptimum i found pretty lousy, maybe it was just the bottle I had but overall I was not impressed given it was a SN product and generally anything hoppy they do a nice job with but not in this case.

That said, if anyone wants a IIPA and can get their hands on it... Alchemist Brewery in Waterbruy, VT currently cans their flagship IIPA called Heady Topper. Hands down best thing I've ever drank. Forget style, forget anything else, most enjoyable beer I've ever had. It's the first beer (and granted it's in limited production as they are a small brewery but from what i've heard they can't keep it in stock ANYWHERE) that I have really heard that has been compared against Pliny the Elder and has compared favorably, where as Pliny was the previous Gold standard for IIPA, I think that Alchemist may have done it one better.

If you can find it, and you like IIPA and hops... you HAVE to try it.

That list definitely needs to have Jai Alai added to it.

I'd love to get ahold of some Heady Topper. I've never heard a non-wooded IPA get hyped like that beer.

Hops4life said:

I much like Jkendrick above am big more on the west coast varieties, i think Green Flash's West Coast IPA is a phenominal IPA, and they did an outstanding job with that beer. That said the SN Hoptimum i found pretty lousy, maybe it was just the bottle I had but overall I was not impressed given it was a SN product and generally anything hoppy they do a nice job with but not in this case.

That said, if anyone wants a IIPA and can get their hands on it... Alchemist Brewery in Waterbruy, VT currently cans their flagship IIPA called Heady Topper. Hands down best thing I've ever drank. Forget style, forget anything else, most enjoyable beer I've ever had. It's the first beer (and granted it's in limited production as they are a small brewery but from what i've heard they can't keep it in stock ANYWHERE) that I have really heard that has been compared against Pliny the Elder and has compared favorably, where as Pliny was the previous Gold standard for IIPA, I think that Alchemist may have done it one better.

If you can find it, and you like IIPA and hops... you HAVE to try it.

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A friend of mine from Boston sent me a few Heady Toppers. That is actually why I mentioned freshness. I can almost guarantee the PtE I sent him was not as good as it is fresh with refrigeration maintained. I suspect the same was true with Heady Topper. I won't know or sure until I try it on the east coast, but IMO it was good, but not world class.

Hops4life said:

I much like Jkendrick above am big more on the west coast varieties, i think Green Flash's West Coast IPA is a phenominal IPA, and they did an outstanding job with that beer.

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Green Flash West Coast IPA actually has about 15% crystal malts in the grain bill with a rather high mash temp.

Despite the name, those traits don't make it very West Coast at all. The high bitterness tricks you into thinking it's not a beer with a lot of sweet caramel presence.

bobbrews said:

Green Flash West Coast IPA actually has about 15% crystal malts in the grain bill with a rather high mash temp.

Despite the name, those traits don't make it very West Coast at all. The high bitterness tricks you into thinking it's not a beer with a lot of sweet caramel presence.

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Hey Bobbrews, do you know much about the recipe for Odell IPA? That one, again when very fresh, is very much to my tastes. In fact, I ranked it number one in a blind taste test that included Pliny among others.

it's crazy how the reoccurring theme of a changing palate continues to be re-visisted on this site.

i frequently brew one of my IIPA's in which 15% of the grain bill is a combination of honey and crystal malt. while it is no longer my favorite beer, my family loves it, and a lot of beginner brewers and newly converted beer geeks love it.

...come to think of it, i think there is also a trend with beginner brewers to add excess amount of unfermentables to their beers. i know i went through a honey malt phase. one of my old recipes has it taking up 20% of the grain bill for a medium gravity beer! now whenever i see a new guy post his first IPA or IIPA recipe for critique, i frequently suggest lowering the crystal.

as for the SN Torpedo and Hoptimum, i'd much prefer a SN Pale Ale.

i plan to visit the west coast for a week this fall once i'm accepted to medical school (fingers crossed!). i look forward to trying these bitter hoppy IPA's everyone has been talking about.

I'm also a fan of the Racer 5, Torpedo, Arrogant Bastard style but do like a good DIPA now and then.
My brother made an awesome one 6 weeks ago but we opened one last night and while still good, much of the hop aroma and flavor seems to have gone. It left a more malty flavor that, though enjoyable, made we wonder how it happened so fast.

It seems to me that Double IPAs get more love in the beer community. They're more sought after / more talked about and the word hop head comes to mind.

I too have really loved beers like Sierra Nevada's Hoptimum, Pliny, Heady Topper and Hopslam. They're really great but then I tried a few Single IPAs from Hill Farmstead and some other local breweries and it's as if the actual beer flavor stands out more and I can appreciate it more.

It's as if the "Hop Bomb" makes up for anything wrong with the beer. It's all about hops. Lately, I've started drinking more Single IPA beers because I appreciate them more and DIPAs when I want my head blown off with delicious resinous goodness.

For sure, I say beer drinkers should divide their time between each pretty evenly. It helps you appreciate each style a lot more.

"For sure, I say beer drinkers should divide their time between each pretty evenly. It helps you appreciate each style a lot more."

A double IPA just isn't an "every day" type beer for me, and a lot of beer drinkers. I appreciate them every now and then, but I'm not looking to throw back 9% pints on a tuesday.

I just feel like that an IIPA has more grain, and therefore is inevitably going to be sweeter. The bitterness is supposed to make that sweetness less cloying, but some brewers are not getting there with the hops IMHO. Oskar Blues Gubna comes to mind. It's a nice American Barleywine, but IMHO it's too sweet and not bitter enough to be an imperial IPA. It's a monster of a beer alright, but I think the line between American Barleywine and American DIPA gets blurred.

I personally think IIPA and DIPA is just different names for the same thing, but I respect the Avery brewer very much, and his IIPA is one of my favorite commercial brews for the style. When Pliny the Younger came out this year, Bear Republic came out with Racer X at roughly the same time. I thought Racer X was far superior because of it's more malty backbone without cloying sweetness.

I'm kind of rambling, but I do consider myself a hophead, and I brew more big IPAs then any other style...but in the end I want a beer thats malty and very hoppy (don't forget hop aroma and flavor in addition to bitterness!) without being cloyingly sweet. Some corn sugar in the boil helps with that dry finish, but when I'm brewing I just mash low, ferment low, and let it take it's time to finish. I routinely get beers that start at 1.074+ to finish 1.012 or lower. Dry is right in this style.

billl said:

"For sure, I say beer drinkers should divide their time between each pretty evenly. It helps you appreciate each style a lot more."

A double IPA just isn't an "every day" type beer for me, and a lot of beer drinkers. I appreciate them every now and then, but I'm not looking to throw back 9% pints on a tuesday.

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Oh. Sorry yeah, looking at my Beer checkins on Untappd, IPA & DIPA and APA is about 60% of my total beers had since January with DIPA being 75% of that majority.

I drink an iPA or DIPA every night.

I think a bunch of brewers go into brewing... Going down the hop bomb, hopped up, double hopped, wet hopped road to eventually come back to enjoy all different styles of beers later. Maybe it's palate maturity or boredom lol. But I always love a single IPA and find myself now brewing session beers so I can have a few more!

divrguy said:

I think a bunch of brewers go into brewing... Going down the hop bomb, hopped up, double hopped, wet hopped road to eventually come back to enjoy all different styles of beers later. Maybe it's palate maturity or boredom lol. But I always love a single IPA and find myself now brewing session beers so I can have a few more!

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I know that I love a good IPA. That being said my first brew (two weeks ago) was the Northern Brewer De Belge Farmhouse IPA. Haven't gotten to taste it yet but the following day I brewed an "American Wheat" recipe I came up with myself.

IMHO I think the joy of home brewing is being able to create any beer you want. I have noticed a lot of people want the big hoppy beers but in all reality you can't kick back a sixer of em. You'd end up head over the rim of a toilet or face down in a puddle of your own piss. That is why I've decided every other beer I brew MUST be a session or non IPA/IIPA. Lol

That being said my third brew (this past weekend) was an imperial/double IPA recipe I came up with. I'm hoping it turns out good because dang was it expensive to brew...

A lot of the hop bombs that are currently on the market today are a response to the popularity some of the original "extreme" brewers experienced when their products first hit the market. Most American beers from the 1980s and early 90s were traditionally lager-style or a simple Pale Ale which had the bitterness, but not kick-in-your-teeth aggressiveness of the modern IPA style.

Anchor Liberty was and still is a Pale Ale, but it was one of the first times the Cascade hop was introduced into production brewing. Along with Centennial, I think these are the most widely used hops for IPAs today (just don't quote me on that ). That beer probably influenced many of the IPAs we drink today. A case can also be made for Sierra Nevada's Pale Ale.

Another argument is that brewers simply got bored. I feel that a cornerstone of the craft beer movement was to challenge the norm, to see how far they could take their beer. DFH is a prime example. Having that kind of freedom is why I got into homebrewing in the first place.

As for Double IPAs vs. Imperial IPAs, there are a few posts in the forums that cover the differences. Also, Avery's discussion about Maharaja mentioned earlier is a good resource. My interpretation is that the terms are used interchangeably today so go with whatever floats your boat.

jkendrick said:

Hey Bobbrews, do you know much about the recipe for Odell IPA? That one, again when very fresh, is very much to my tastes. In fact, I ranked it number one in a blind taste test that included Pliny among others.

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Yes, I do. It's more malty and less hoppy...

Odell IPA

1.067 OG
1.014 FG
7 SRM
Assumed Efficiency: 75%
Boil Time: 90 minutes
47-54 IBUs Tinseth (approx. 60+ if you account for the flameout additions)

Mash-in at 154 F for 60 minutes
Mash-out at 168 F for 10 minutes

For 5.5 US gallons:

6 lbs. Gambrinus ESB Malt
5 lbs. Canada Malting Superior Pale Ale Malt
2 lbs. Weyermann Vienna Malt
10 oz. Thomas Fawcett Caramalt
5 oz. Weyermann CaraFoam

.75 oz. Horizon pellet 13% @ 90 minutes full rolling boil
.50 oz. Simcoe pellet 13% @ 90 minute full rolling boil
1.0 oz. Simcoe pellet @ direct flameout for 10 minutes
1.0 oz. Chinook pellet @ direct flameout for 10 minutes
1.0 oz. Columbus pellet @ warm whirlpool steep for 30 minutes @ 165 F or lower
1.0 oz. Chinook pellet @ warm whirlpool steep for 30 minutes @ 165 F or lower
0.5 oz. Simcoe pellet @ 7 day dryhop
0.5 oz. Horizon pellet @ 7 day dryhop
0.5 oz. Amarillo pellet @ 7 day dryhop
0.5 oz. Centennial pellet @ 7 day dryhop

Condition in Secondary on Dryhops for at least 1 week

Nottingham Ale Yeast
Ferment at 68 F