copper tubing questions

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beer_wookie

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I'm looking at different wort chiller configurations. For starters, I'll just go with the basic single coil immersion chiller. The question is the diameter for the tubing and the time it takes to do the job. How much of a difference is there between 1/2'' outer diameter and 3/8' OD? One thought is that the 1/2" will have greater surface area, thus quicker chilling. Using 25' of tubing, the 1/2" OD will have approx 10 sg ft more surface area than the 3/8" OD.

Has anybody compared the time difference using different diameters?

Additionally, what happens if I exceed the temperature rating of the tubing? The specs say to use it in systems that do not exceed 200 F. Does it matter if it is above 200 for only momentarily?

Thanks!
 
beer_wookie said:
Additionally, what happens if I exceed the temperature rating of the tubing? The specs say to use it in systems that do not exceed 200 F. Does it matter if it is above 200 for only momentarily?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I imagine these specs have to do with it being installed in a closed system (pressurized). For an IC or a CFC, there shouldn't be any problems exposing it to 200 F.
 
beer_wookie said:
I'm looking at different wort chiller configurations. For starters, I'll just go with the basic single coil immersion chiller. The question is the diameter for the tubing and the time it takes to do the job. How much of a difference is there between 1/2'' outer diameter and 3/8' OD? One thought is that the 1/2" will have greater surface area, thus quicker chilling. Using 25' of tubing, the 1/2" OD will have approx 10 sg ft more surface area than the 3/8" OD.

Has anybody compared the time difference using different diameters?

Additionally, what happens if I exceed the temperature rating of the tubing? The specs say to use it in systems that do not exceed 200 F. Does it matter if it is above 200 for only momentarily?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Most people only make one immersion chiller so getting a direct comparison between 1/2" and 3/8" will be tough. I ended up using 50 feet 3/8" copper refrigeration tubing to make a rib cage, double coil style immersion chiller. My logic was that I could buy a lot more 3/8" than 1/2" and the greater surface area from more tubing would outweigh what I could do with a similarly priced amount of 1/2" tubing. On a good day, I can get from boiling to pitching in under 15 minutes.

For my immersion chiller, I toss it in for the last 10 min of boiling to sterilize it and don't have any problems.
 
I've built two immersion chillers. One from 3/8" OD tubing and one from 1/2" OD tubing. The cross sectional area of the 1/2" tubing is more than twice that of the 3/8". There will also be more resistance to flow in the smaller tubing. The 1/2" significantly outperformed the 3/8" tubing. I no longer have or use either since I built a CFC, but that's my opinion on the two tubing sizes. The higher flow rate makes all the difference.
 
Jeez, that's cheap.


1/2 definitely works better. How much better, well, I haven't seen a side-by-side comparison.

Copper melts at 1900+ degrees F. Folks here are right, 200*F is for high pressure systems. You can boil the whole IC for the whole boil and it won't suffer in the slightest.
 
How much concern is there over the type of copper? M, L, and K can be used for domestic water. DWV is for drainage, waste, and ventilation, and I don't know if that's recommended for domestic water. The wild card is "utility / general purpose." Anybody know the guidelines for general purpose copper? Anything in its production process that is going to be an issue when it gets immersed into something I'm going to drink, in copious amounts no less?

And last but not least, I'm staying away from Chinese and Mexican copper, which is allowed to have amounts of arsenic.
 
Attached is the compliance letter Mueller sent me. However it's only regarding lead content, but the NSF website entry says Mueller's C12200 alloy is certified for drinking water with the caveat that the water must be pH6.5 and up.

Looking at their wholesale price list, i think i know where the price difference comes from. The utility grade coil is less half the weight of type L coil, and 2/3 less than type K. So it's just really thin.

MuellerCompliance.jpg
 
Hmmm... seems like an amazing deal, but does anyone know more about this?

outside92129 said:
the NSF website entry says Mueller's C12200
alloy is certified for drinking water with the caveat that the water must be pH6.5 and up.
Click to expand...

Wort ph is usually lower than that. Would that pose a problem? Or, put differently, what would be the results of using this particular alloy in liquid with a lower ph? Any chemists want to weigh in?

Not trying to rain on the deal, just trying to get things straight before I pull the trigger (which is a great find - thanks outside!).
 
C12200 is the standard copper alloy for tubing in the US because the added phosphorus makes it easier to solder/braze but it does reduce electrical conductivity. If you bought copper coil from anywhere else, it's most likely c12200 as well. C11000 is the other common alloy but it used for other household/electrical uses but not for tubing. C12210 and C12300 are sometimes used for piping too.

So just about everyone here is using the c12200 alloy, and for short wort cooling purposes a pH of 4.5-6.5 doesn't seem to be hurting anything. Interestingly enough copper.org says c12200 has excellent corrosion resistance to beer.

(i work with a bunch of lab coat wearing people : )
 
Ok, good enough. Just ordered 50' of 1/2"! Can't get cheaper than that even from plumbing supply places in town.

Should show up in about 2 weeks - I'll keep people posted if you all want.
 
A propane torch from lowes/home depot is the cheapest way to go. $10 for the torch, $20 for a torch kit.

If you want to go electric, shortyjacobs is absolutely right, a soldering iron doesn't have the wattage needed. They're meant for small circuit boards, not for large copper bits which will just suck the heat out of the joint before the solder melts. The electric option is do something like below. It'll cost a bit more, but you'll have good control and won't burn the flux.
http://www.cooperhandtools.com/bran...ring and Heat Guns &att2=Soldering Guns
 
Palefire said:
Ok, good enough. Just ordered 50' of 1/2"! Can't get cheaper than that even from plumbing supply places in town.

Should show up in about 2 weeks - I'll keep people posted if you all want.
Click to expand...

Looks like they only have 25 ft length. Are you going to solder them together to make one 50' IC?
 
HomebrewMTB said:
Looks like they only have 25 ft length. Are you going to solder them together to make one 50' IC?
Click to expand...

Going to make a dual-coil chiller. One 5/8" (or 3/4" - haven't decided yet) input split into two separate 1/2" coils, each 25' long. Then recombined at the output. More efficient than a single coil, plus this way I can fit the whole 50" into a 5 gallon batch.

Was planning on doing this anyway; this just saves me the step of cutting a 50' length in half.
 
i have looked at this several times, and i cannot find where it says the OD of the tube. the description has several sizes listed, and 3/8 said 20'
 
If you look at the product description it gives all of the part #'s for the different od and length UT08025 is 1/2"25', find the size you would like and copy/paste the part # to the search bar and it will pull up what you are looking for. I just got 50' heading my way, nice find thanks for the link
 
Don't mean to thread hijack, but...

I have a looong 1/4" wort chiller. I want to cut off 10 ft or so to make a prechiller since groundwater is 80*.

How can I cut the pipe? I have wire cutters, pliers and razor blades. I'd rather not buy a pipe/tube cutter to make a single cut. Can I just cut it with the wire cutter and then use the pliers to uncrimp the ends? I don't think it will matter if my copper is somewhat warped on the ends since it's just a chiller but I'd rather check here first.
 
tesilential said:
Don't mean to thread hijack, but...

I have a looong 1/4" wort chiller. I want to cut off 10 ft or so to make a prechiller since groundwater is 80*.

How can I cut the pipe? I have wire cutters, pliers and razor blades. I'd rather not buy a pipe/tube cutter to make a single cut. Can I just cut it with the wire cutter and then use the pliers to uncrimp the ends? I don't think it will matter if my copper is somewhat warped on the ends since it's just a chiller but I'd rather check here first.
Click to expand...

It's a ***** to uncrimp. Do you have a hacksaw? Recip Saw? Dremel with cut off wheel?
 
Yeah, hacksaw's probably the easiest (and the cheapest, if you don't have one), or dremel. I wouldn't use wire cutters. Warped ends will really reduce flow.
 
Damn, don't have any saw but I guess i could pick up a used hacksaw for a buck or two at the flea market.
 
Ok, mine just showed up in the mail. I will say, it is very light, and very thin. The tubing deforms pretty easily when you squeeze it with your fingers. The thin-ness is probably a good thing for heat transfer, but I'm a little worried about it kinking too easily when I coil it up, or its getting crushed if I'm not delicate enough with the IC. Might have to build a fair amount of structural reinforcement into the IC.

Nonetheless, it'll probably work great once it's all put together. And the price was certainly right!

I should be getting to building it in a week or so ... I'll keep people posted.
 
Palefire said:
Going to make a dual-coil chiller. One 5/8" (or 3/4" - haven't decided yet) input split into two separate 1/2" coils, each 25' long. Then recombined at the output. More efficient than a single coil, plus this way I can fit the whole 50" into a 5 gallon batch.

Was planning on doing this anyway; this just saves me the step of cutting a 50' length in half.
Click to expand...

THANKS!!! That dual coil sounds sweet. My 2 x 1/2" x 50" coils arrived this week and I'm definitely going dual coil now. I just need to find the 3/8" bits. I've been to HD, Tractor Supply, and Ace and they don't have anything in 3/8". Any leads on the 3/8" copper T's and elbows?
 
Yeah, 3/8" (or even 1/2"!) pieces are hard to find. I looked all over before I stumbled onto this weird old junked-out plumbing supply place that had a few. They directed me to a refrigeration supply house, though, that carries a ton of brass pipe pieces in all sizes. Don't know where you live, but it's this company: http://www.arsnet.com/. Might want to check to see if there's one near you?

A little more expensive than HD, but they've got everything. If there's no specialty plumbing or refrigeration supply place in town, Mcmaster carries all that stuff, too.
 
Thanks. I'm going to try coppertubingsales.com since they seem to have a nice kit already put together with the hose fittings and all. I'll see what they say about selling all the bits without the tubing. I wanted to get this done today but after two hours of driving around to three stores, I gave up on that idea. Interwebz to the rescue again. I already wound the copper so I just need to the elbows and Ts to get it functional. This took way longer than I thought.
 
outside92129 said:
How are ya'll planning to split and recombine the wort? I'm pondering that question right now as i stare at two coils here.
Click to expand...

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm making a dual coil immersion chiller. The wort doesn't flow through, just water to carry the heat away. Do a quick search here for dual coil chillers and you'll see some examples.
 

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