Easy Way to Make Sour Beers (1 gal wort + dregs)

just had jolly pumkins la roja, and also picked up a bottle of oro de calabeza. your right the don de dieu was not sour, but had a good flavor. if it was the yeast than it could be good later in my batch.
so this will be a couple of batches!
possible blending later.

Ashmgee - this same idea can be used for non-sour beers also. And I have actually started doing that because I was making more sour beer than I could drink (I didn't think it was possible). The big difference when using non sour beers is that you really should build up the yeast before pitching. I make 4-6 oz of starter w nutrients and pour it right into the bottle. I will then build it up once more or go from there depending on activity and amount of yeast. And you also need to be very clean and careful, so use sanitizer everywhere, flame the bottle lips and try not to work anywhere with a draft.

Here are my last two beers using dregs from Belgian beers:

Belgian Pale Ale with Achouffe yeast
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2011/09/dreg-series-achouffe-belgian-pale-ale.html

Belgian Pale Ale with Rochefort yeast
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2011/09/dreg-series-rochefort-belgian-pale-ale.html

And here is a great list of Beers with wild yeast or souring bugs
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/06/harvesting-sour-beer-bottle-dregs.html

And here is another that lists bottle conditioned beers
http://www.nada.kth.se/~alun/Beer/Bottle-Yeasts/

Hope that helps

That helps a lot.

Just curious, how long should I wait for fermentation to start before contemplating adding more dregs? Will the wort be fine sitting if active ferment doesn't take right off?

This is the coolest brew experiment I've tried so far! My plan was to get this one going and the possibly add it to 4 more gallons down the road to fill a 5 gallon carboy. Is that a good bad idea?

and if you have too much sour beer, you could always send me some

What are you doing for temperature control on these little jugs?

ashmgee -
For sour beers you "should" be okay without seeing activity for a few days. And for those occasions it is probably good to have some dry yeast on hand to add. I have had very good success with pretty quick activity, but it really depends on the age and viability of the dregs. If in doubt make a small starter. Or if you are adding dregs to an already finished beer than you may never see activity or a pellicle, it just depends on the strain of Brett and the amount of oxygen.

As for adding the 1 gal to more wort: That was my idea with the 1 gal batches. I can try out different dregs and worts. And when I like a certain combination, I now have a gallon starter to add to a 5 gal batch.


wierdboy -
For most of these 1 gal batches I don't worry about temperature control. For the sour beers I don't think temperature control is as big of an issue as it is with Sacc yeast. With that said I live in Southern California and I have relatively mild weather. My brew closet stays 70 -75 year round. I pitch all the yeast around 70 degrees. Through my 15 + batches I have not got any big off-flavors from my temperatures being too high. I also don't know how different my results would be if the beers were fermented cooler. The other reason for my confidence at these temps is because Lost Abbey in Northern County San Diego has all their beer aging in barrels in a room that has much greater temperature swings (60 - 90 degrees at least) and their beers are world class.

Now for ferments when I am using a Sacc yeast, I have only been using yeast that can ferment in the 70+ range. I have only done Saisons and Belgian beers. These are actually pitched around 65 and then allowed to free-rise. Which is my normal fermentation profile for Saisons and Belgians.

If I was to try to use dregs from and English or American ale then I would put my gallon jugs into my fermentation cabinet.

Just thought it would be fun to contribute to this as the process goes along. Any and all comments are appreciated. This has been going for 3 weeks.


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This is my belgian golden w/Supplication & Two Brothers Askew dregs along with a a little bit of my WLP570 starter thrown in the mix. Not sure what things are supposed to look like at this point. The fermentation went along like normal for a couple days krausen and all. It almost looks as though some of the krausen remnants stayed on top? Lots of little bubbles and such. I don't know what to expect with this sort of thing... so i wait. and hope for the best.

The gallon I started on sunday with just dregs from la roja and from a bottle of uni don-de-dieu has started fermenting. ferm started in about a day and a half. nothing crazy just lots of tiny bubbles and a thin krausen.

I'm so proud! can't wait to start another, but I need to bottle some beer before I will have space to brew another batch.
I know, I know, its a tough world.

I was thinking that if i started one a month (maybe a couple this month) then next year i would be looking pretty good.

ashmgee -
Your one a month is exactly how I started. My suggestion is to buy the 1 gal glass cider containers and use whatever yeast you are using at that time to make some hard cider.

I believe I am up to about 10 - 1 gal jugs. It makes it much easier to forget about the batch you just made when you have 1 that is just about to be ready.

It's funny I bet you will start doing what I do now. I buy beer based on wanting to try the dregs.

I've got a head start on gallon jugs because that is what I have brewed all of my meads and ciders in.

I figure if I do one a month that allows me to buy one beer a month so it isn't to spendy. these beers are ridiculously priced, but I will have my own supply coming out in a years time. until then I get to drink one beer a month that is special. other than that it's all my own stuff, which is pretty darn cool too!

second gallon in the jug!

made a saison style beer, and stole a gallon before pitching.

dregs were from lindemans cuvee rene oude gueuze
we'll see what happens.

the other one seems to be picking up speed fermenting. (started pretty slow, but is catching up)

I have some french oak chips, and I am wondering if I should add a few to both or if that is really a non issue.

It depends on what you are looking for. From my experience, in 5 gals about 1 oz of French Oak chips boiled for 10 minutes then decanted is a nice background flavor in a darker malt forward beer, but on a paler beer that amount can become a dominant flavor. And I have had it over power some of the subtle flavors I was hoping for.

Oak is traditionally not a flavor in Belgian sour beers, they use barrels that have very little flavor left and the surface to volume ratio is also pretty small.

I however am a big fan of oak and like to use it in all my malt forward sour beers.

If you are looking to add oak cubes so you can store the bugs or use the same bugs on another beer, then just make sure to boil several times to try to remove as much flavor as possible.

the lindemans seemed to not take, so I pitched J/K oro de calabaza. I really was stoked to try the beer, but was a little disappointed by it. seemed a little sour with no other character.

feel free to school a sour newb, but I personally wasn't that impressed. pitched dregs anyways because I know that they are good on the aggressive yeast part of the deal, and this just an experimental batch.

I have tasted other stuff this week that I have made and I am really excited. things are really good, and I am starting to underestimate the time things have been sitting. I let the household taste my iipa tonight even though I didn't think it would be done, but they demanded to try it.

It was awesome!

I have not had great results with the dregs from gueuze either. First of all, the bottles are pretty old when you get them so viability is very low. And I am not sure of all the bugs that are lambic dregs. It would be a good idea to build a starter for those dregs if you want to use them next time. Maybe build the starter up a few times, then give it a taste and smell.

I actually don't remember Tasting JP's Oro de Calabaza so no comment on that one.

Glad to hear you are having success

Almighty, your posts and blog have convinced me to give this 1 gal jug system a try. I'm a recent convert to liking sour beers, and think this is a perfect way to get more into it. On saturday I made a starter with the dregs of a RR Temptation bottle, which I'm going to pitch onto a gallon of a Saison I brewed yesterday. Made 15 regular, 1 extra for bugs. I'll let you know how things go.

That is great to hear.

It looks like several of you are somewhat local. Ee will have to have a tasting party or bottle exchange when these batches get ready.

I'm about 5 weeks into my Soured Belgian Golden project, and although this is probably pretty normal to most clean beer brewers, I was pretty amazed to see this crystal clear product! I could see medium sized bubbles coming from the bottom. i got excited, took some pics, and thought i'd share.



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I am inspired. I just moved across the country and haven't brewed in months, but this sounds like a fun little experiment to get me excited again.

It is still exciting for me to make a new batch. I have been pleasantly surprised with how well these beers have turned out.

The nice part about this experimental batches is that you can learn a good amount about the different Brett and bug combinations without too much risk. Meaning you can find out what strains of Brett you like compared to the base beer. Also you can find out if like Brett Only, Brett + Sacc or Brett + Lacto & Pedio fermentations.

Here are some conclusion for my personal taste:

I really like the Drie (Avery 15) Brett Strains in just about any wort. They are incredibly fruity and have just enough funk that you know it is not a Sacc fermentation.

I don't really like White Labs Brett C with malty or roasty beers, because it produces a phenol that I don't think blends well.

Brett in beers that had a decent amount of hop aroma and flavor do not age well. The hops oxidize quickly and the Brett flavors do not cover up that flaw.

On the other hand dry-hopping a beer with Brett and drinking it somewhat quickly works pretty darn well. Especially if using fruity hops, I have really enjoyed a Saison with Brett C that was dry-hopped with Amarillo.

I will add more as I think of them.

We should also think of getting a yeast swap going. I am starting a pretty good library and would also like to try some cultures from beers on the East Coast and Colorado breweries.

Inspired me to pick up two Flanders last night and give this a go on my next batch. Looks like fun.

What Flanders did you pick up? Because most are filtered, especially from Belgium.

Almighty:
What east coast stuff were you thinking about?

J/P oro de calabaza was a no go on ferment, so I picked up a bottle of orval to throw in hope this one takes, I running out of room in the jug.

Petrus Aged Pale Ale and this:
http://www.bockor.be/en/our-beers/bellegems-bruin

Perhaps they're not Flanders, still getting my arms around tha funk...

phished880-
The three I want to try the most are:
Captain Lawrence Cuvee Castleton
Anything from Allagash's coolship
Anything from Bullfrog

Ashmgee-
That bottle of JP Oro de Calabaza should have very active dregs - what is the batch#?
What are your procedures?
Are you putting the bottle in the fridge for a few days to make sure the dregs collect on the bottom?
Are you using a starter in the bottle?
Are you adding yeast nutrients?
Are you aerating the wort before pitching the dregs?
How long are you waiting for activity?

HokieBrewer-
I had decent results with Petrus - not my favorite strain but you may enjoy it. This is a small bottle so a starter may help depending on the age of the bottle and strength of the wort. (just add a few oz of starter + nutrients right to the bottle)
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2011/08/homebrew-tasting-petrus-common.html

And the Bockor I think is filtered. Shine a light in the bottom of the bottle to check for dregs.

Those are 2 great gateway sour beers that are tasty. They both are mild on the sour and have very little funk compared to others out there. Good Luck

almighty,

the bottle was labeled from 5/?/11 without looking. (bottle is currently buried and filled with beer)

with this one I used the same procedure as the last one. let bottle be still for 4 days in the fridge. drink out of glass, and then pour the last inch and a half into the wort.

not using a starter
not using nutrient although I have some i could use. to late to add now?
definitely aerating wort prior to pitch
realizing this is a slow process I give at least a week for results.

this week hadn't been a good one for fermenting at my house. my dregs batch didn't take and also a belgian that I brewed did not take with wlp550. just had to repitch last night and had activity this morning.

this is only my second dregs gallon attempt, but the first one took quickly with the la roja. was expecting the same with the oro de calabaza, but it was a couple of months older by date. the la roja was dated august if I remember correctly (it is also buried).

for my worts, I have been making simple extracts with belgian style steeping grains.
not high OG and not hopped. I usually add a small amount of hops at 15 min, but these batches have been separate from other beer making because I wanted to make an environment that would be easy on the yeasts.

the plan is to get a couple of these churning and then add to 4 gallons of wort that I will make in similar style for these if I like the direction they are heading. I figured that one a month would be plenty and this is month 2, but month 2 has already exceeded budget with the J/K not taking, and having to buy more beer. (that's ok because i like beer and these experiments)

Yeah, it seems like you are doing everything right.

I guess maybe a starter could help. I just use run-off from a main batch. After I'm done sparging I run through another 1/2 gal and then boil down on the stove so it is at 1.030 - 1.040. Cool it, pour in a ziploc then into the freezer. When I want to make a starter I break off a piece of the starter ice cube, bring to a boil , add 1/8 t of Wyeast Nutrient and boil for 5 minutes. I cool it cover in the sink and then pour it into the bottle.

Keep the updates coming, it is interesting to hear other results.

that is a clever way to keep starter material around. I will have to try that, although I don't have the equipment to brew all grain. I could easily use that method to make starters, and that could help because I would be able to verify viability of dregs before adding them to my wort.

do you just cover the bottle with foil?

Yes, I sanitize the foil with Starsan stored in a spray bottle. And then I shake the bottle as often as possible. I usually get activity in 1 -3 days. The activity in these small starters are not as obvious as they are in larger batches.

First things first: excellent idea. I put the dregs from a bottle of Hannsen's Oude Kriek in a gallon of my Kentucky Common and it has a nice pellicle already. I also have a bottle of Noel de Calabaza and a Bruery Sweet Potato ale that I can use for other nefarious purposes.

I do have a question, though. Rather than open up another thread, I thought I'd go to the source. I have a bottle of Bayerischer Bahnhof Leipziger Porticus in my fridge. I know it is fermented with Brett and I know that it is bottle conditioned. I was wondering if you or anyone else knew if there was usable brett in this bottle. I am brewing a persimmon brown ale and I think that may be fantastic with brett.

Bayerischer Bahnhof Leipziger Porticus - what a cool sounding beer - where did you find that bottle?

If it is bottle conditioned I would imagine the Brett is still viable. Make a small starter in the bottle to find out.

And a persimmon brown ale with Brett sounds very good. I wonder what strain of Brett is in the Bayerischer. You may be able to email the brewer and ask. I find most people in this industry are happy to share info.

I added persimmons to a pale base beer with Russian River dregs and I'm looking forward to see how those flavors mesh.

maybe you all could help me with this question.

I have started two gallons in containers. One was a dark wort with minimal cascade hop late addition. The second was a Belgian saison style. I am looking to start a third at some point this coming month and was wondering if you all had any ideas for a pairing of dregs with style of wort you were particularly pleased with?

Bare with me, I only have the capability to brew extract with specialty grains. I would love to hear the styles you have success with, and then could formulate a recipe in that direction. Some of the styles that are presented here seem to be out of my brewing range, but I could be totally off on that.
Thanks again

ashmgee-
I'm going to need a lot more information from you to give you a good response. It really depends on your taste. I know this might not be all that helpful, but the best way to know is to try beer. Once you have a good background of your taste then I would suggest you read a few beer blogs to get inspiration.

I read quite a few to get ideas and try to understand flavor combinations. Start with some of these resources.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/homebrew-beer-recipes.html
Mike is the one that inspired me to start trying to brew these beers. He has a very extensive recipe list and with tasting notes.

http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/p/beer-recipes_7155.html
My other favorite. Ryan really tests some flavor combinations and uses some unusual ingredients. He also has a great beer recipe list with tasting results.

http://seanywonton.blogspot.com/search/label/Funk
Sean also has a bunch of recipes, not that many funky or sour, but still a good reference.

http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/p/beer-recipes.html
My beer recipe list and I'm trying to get better about posting tastings

There are many others I am missing so just look at the reading list on people's blogs.

I also suggest looking at commercial beers that are released. Some of my favorites

Start here - http://dankbrewingcompany.blogspot.com/2011/09/us-sour-beer-guide-sour-brett-and-funk.html
He listed so many sour beers and where they come from

Upright Brewing - http://uprightbrewingblog.blogspot.com/ - really creative beers

Cascade Brewing - http://cascadebrewingbarrelhouse.com/beer.asp - I suggest subscribing to their newsletter, they produce so many varieties of sour beers it is crazy. And I really like to see what they are doing to get some good flavor combinations.

Jolly Pumpkin - http://www.ratebeer.com/brewers/jolly-pumpkin-artisan-ales/4923/ - This is particular helpful if using their dregs you can see what they think works well.

Lost Abbey - http://www.ratebeer.com/brewers//port-brewing-lost-abbey/7043/ -
These dregs are also easy to get if you live in CA

Russian River - http://www.russianriverbrewing.com/pages/bottle/index.html - the bottle log tells you what they used and Vinnie has been very open about recipes so you should find them around the internet.

Many more.

As far as process, I think you can brew any of these beers. Most of the flavors for these beer are made during the fermentation. I think the base wort has pretty low importance for these styles as compared to other styles. If you have specific questions feel free to ask.

So I have three gallon batches going with dregs. I popped the lid on all of them last night to take a smell. They all smelled like the rubber bungs I used with the airlocks. Hoping this smell doesn't get into the beer, how are you guys air locking the jugs?

I use a size 6.5(?) rubber stopper in my glass jugs and have never had a problem. It is the same kind that is used in my carboy.

Yeah, that's what I use, mine are giving off a horrible rubber smell. Guess I'll just have to taste a sample to see.

My Russian River Temptation bottle made a great starter. Took about 4 days to get anything active in there, but once it was clearly rolling I pitched it onto my 1 gallon jug of Saison. It is fermenting away quite nicely now. Can't wait to see what it's like down the road. One thing I am a little worried about is that it had a decent sized late hop addition of amarillo. I hope it's not too hoppy to let it age long enough for the bugs to do their thing.

My brewing buddy and I took a bit of a hiatus to replenish our bank accounts so we don't have any new batches to pitch on at the moment, but I'm thinking that once we get rolling again in a month or so we will do a 5 gallon blond ale or something plain like that to do 5 different bug pitches with.

We've also started saving the dregs of non-bug bottles that we like and plan to cultivate some yeast strains with them as well. Can't wait to grow the sake yeast from The Bruery's Faster Bigger Better Bolder and make a Japanese IPA with sorachi ace hops.

Will keep updating as things progress.

So you are using the same kind as you use in your main batch and you have never had a problem before?
Not sure how the batch size would change this.

Another thought, what dregs have you used so far? Could this smell be an over-the-top Belgian phenol? This can happen with certain types of Brett if brewed at higher temps. I had it happen with 100% Brett C brewed in the high 70s. It had to be blended to be drinkable.

almighty-

I have been reading through the links that you posted, and there are some great ideas there. I think for the next one that I do I will go a little bigger and make a 3 gallon batch of an orval clone that I copied down from the Jamil podcast I listened to about belgian specialty beers. I seems like a fairly strait forward recipe, but he said on the podcast that you secondary the beer with brett for 3 months. I assume that that is with a brett containing yeast packet. If I wanted to do this with dregs from orval bottles would it still be 3 months? Seems like all the info I have gathered so far points to much longer secondaries. I do all my bottling with grolsh swing tops so I know they can take more pressure, but is there a reason for the shorter secondary. I looked at the 2 month orval thread on here and it seems that if you age orval longer it picks up more character with time, but couldn't that be done in a carboy?

Have you brewed something this way? Does bottling sooner take oxidation out of the equation?

And off topic from this post. My first gallon batch is now showing signs of a pellicle forming! Thats pretty cool and also a little disturbing to look at. In a couple of months if I wanted to taste it how bad is it to disturb the pellicle?