Dual 2000W 120V Recirculating eBIAB Build

PistolsAtDawn said:

I'm curious about your induction plans. Care to extrapolate?

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My plans aren't overly-ambitious:

I do BIAB, and I only make 2.5-3.5 gallon batches. I've been doing a lot of research to see if I can do well, not just get by, on a 110/120V 1800W induction cooktop with my existing 5G kettle. Then I'd like to get a pump a recirc.

However, if I do go to 240V and, say, a 3500W induction cooktop, then I'm thinking about buying a 10G pot and going back to doing 5G batches. I'll probably buy a nice pre-assembled kettle from BruGear or Spike Brewing, and then get the the pump.

I'm into to simple, yet I want to make my results easy to repeat consistently. I'm looking forward getting in started... but first I'm waiting to buy a new house (making an offer this week, I hope) and seeing what space I have to work with.

If I trusted my ability I would copy this build!! but dont think I can pull that off lol

Hey again russki,

I brewed a 10-gallon batch last weekend. I found that 21 pounds of grain is pushing the basket's limit a little, at least when combined with the total boil volume plus grain absorption loss.

To end up with 11 gallons in the fermentor, I had a total water volume around 14.75, which obviously is not going to fit in this setup with the basket displacing water and the grain along side it. I went with 12 gallons and topped up a little later, which worked out okay.

But I'd like to dial it in a little better for the next run. Can you please quickly run me through your process for a 10-gallon batch on your rig? How are you calculating your volumes? Any unexpected challenges that you've overcome? How fast do you set your flow rate on your pump?

With my propane-fired keggles, I was accustomed to doing pretty thin mashes (1.75 - 2 qts/lb) as I got good efficiency that way, but with the basket displacing some of the water in this new rig, I don't think that I'll be able to keep that up. Not unless I skip using the basket and just bag it, and even then I question what the upper limit will be as I won't be sparging obviously.

Also, do you have any trouble with flow rates through the basket? I'm wondering if I should open up the holes a little. I had some trouble last time, which was my fault for forgetting to get rice hulls (a batch of the Big Daddy Sweet Stout recipe hosted on Beersmith's site), and I knew that the mash would be a bit gummy. Well it was really gummy, and I had to keep stirring just to keep the flow going. I am left wondering just how much difference a pound of hulls would have made.

Thanks bud!

PistolsAtDawn said:

But I'd like to dial it in a little better for the next run. Can you please quickly run me through your process for a 10-gallon batch on your rig? How are you calculating your volumes? Any unexpected challenges that you've overcome? How fast do you set your flow rate on your pump?

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Yes, 10 gallon batches are a bit tricky with this rig. Here's how I do it:
I start with 11 gallons of water, get it up to mash temps, put the basket in, mash in, start recirculation. I throttle the pump (with a ball valve on the output) so that there's only a gentle flow over the grain bed - not strong enough to disturb the bed, but not a trickle.

While it's mashing, I heat up 4 gallons of water on the stove to about 165F. When the mash time is up, I lift up the basket, slide the grate under it (that's where the challenge is - it's tricky without a helper to balance the basket and slide the grate), and set it on top. I use a large coffee cup to "sparge" the grains with the water I heated up until I get to 11.5-12 gallons (depending on the length of the boil); I then squeeze what I can from the grain bag for a total of 12.5-13 gallons pre-boil (60-90 min boil). My boil-off is around 1.5 gallons/hour, depending on the strength of the boil, so you may need to adjust the volumes based on yours. I end up with around 11 gallons post boil, which is just about perfect.

russki said:

Yes, 10 gallon batches are a bit tricky with this rig. Here's how I do it:
I start with 11 gallons of water, get it up to mash temps, put the basket in, mash in, start recirculation. I throttle the pump (with a ball valve on the output) so that there's only a gentle flow over the grain bed - not strong enough to disturb the bed, but not a trickle.

While it's mashing, I heat up 4 gallons of water on the stove to about 165F. When the mash time is up, I lift up the basket, slide the grate under it (that's where the challenge is - it's tricky without a helper to balance the basket and slide the grate), and set it on top. I use a large coffee cup to "sparge" the grains with the water I heated up until I get to 11.5-12 gallons (depending on the length of the boil); I then squeeze what I can from the grain bag for a total of 12.5-13 gallons pre-boil (60-90 min boil). My boil-off is around 1.5 gallons/hour, depending on the strength of the boil, so you may need to adjust the volumes based on yours. I end up with around 11 gallons post boil, which is just about perfect.

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Thank you for the reply!

I had thought about doing a sparge of sorts, but then I thought maybe you were doing something different.

I made another 5 gallon batch this last weekend (crappy weather outside? No problem!), and I found that having a pound of rice hulls mixed in made it drain so well that I didn't need to squeeze the bag at all. I may even back it down to a half pound next time. I hear you about it being a challenge to lift out the basket by yourself. I used a ratcheting pulley with the 10-gallon batch, and I doubt it would have been possible for me to do that alone without one. The amount of suction caused by the basket wasn't expected on my first run through.

The flow was also a lot better during recirculation using hulls - BUT I did need to stir a lot more than I had been after dough in. It seems to me that was my main issue with the flow rates as I had already throttled the flow back with a ball valve on the output of the pump. I guess I just wasn't getting the endosperm exposed enough, and everything was gummy. I could tell by the change in resistance alone when everything was mixed properly. I was not a BIAB brewer before now, so I guess I needed to get used to this method. I really do like it though. I got about 82% efficiency on this last batch, so I'm satisfied!

I also found that stirring the grain for a minute or two during the rise in temperature for the mash out made a huge difference in both time it takes to get up to proper temps and accuracy of the temperature probe's reading. I had previously assumed that the recirculation would be enough, but it really isn't. At least, not in my experience.

Still, this is a great system, and I cannot thank you enough for posting this thread documenting your work so well (and of course to everyone else's systems that this design was built upon)!

Amazing build russki (and PistolsAtDawn). Question for you fellas - have either of you experienced any issues with wort scorching using those particular elements? My guess is no since they're LWD, but I thought I'd ask as I'm contemplating a build using the same ones.

That control panel is legendary.

Cheers.

Nope, no scorching at all. I do scrub the elements after each brew - they get coated in residue. If they are not cleaned, I can see this leading to scorching.

Thanks for the reply russki. So do you use PBW or Oxi and then give them a good scrub? What are you using to scrub them? Just trying to get an idea of what's involved in a cleaning process that ensures there aren't issues with scorching.

I would really love to eventually build an electric rig, but I don't want to drop a bunch of cash and then have issues. Especially as i like to make a lot of lighter beers (pilsners, helles, etc). One last question - have you done any really high gravity beers with these elements? I've heard that higher OG wort can be more prone to scorching.

Thanks for humoring me and my paranoid questioning. Appreciate your time.

Cheers.

Not to answer for russki, but I clean mine with PBW and a scrubby sponge. I also apply food-grade silicone on the element face to keep it from rusting from any residual moisture left after cleaning. I've done some .070 and 0.80 beers with no scorching, but not anything bigger.

For cleaning, I fill it up with about 5 gallons of hot tap water and a scoop of PBW, then I recirculate for 15-20 min. While it's recirculating, I close and open all of the valves a few times, and scrub the pot and the elements with a dishwashing bristle brush (dollar store brand). I drain and rinse everything with clean tap water a few times - this leaves everything pretty clean.

I have not brewed anything above about 1.070 on this system, so can't tell you if that would lead to any issues. I have brewed high gravity beers (1.100-ish) with an HWD heatstick, and had no scorching. I never run the elements at 100% during the boil; typically i have them at 80-85%, so that also helps to prevent scorching.

I have brewed many lighter styles (helles, blondes, hefewizens, wits) and never had any wort darkening or off-flavors.

Thanks for the replies fellas. It's good information to have and puts my mind at ease. Sounds basically the same as my current cleaning process. It'll be a while before I get to building my electric system (gotta finish the kitchen remodel first), but when I do I'll definitely be referencing this thread more than a few times.

Cheers and enjoy the weekend.

One last (hopefully) question for you - have you had any issues with the faces of your elements rusting?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers.

I have not. I will admit due to my set up I can't get My elements that clean but I still don't have a scorching problem.

I have had my set up running for a few months. Over 6 batches on it and still not a problem


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As far as rust on the element faces - maybe some discoloration, but not any major rust. I wipe them dry after each brew session.

Hey russki another question for you - would you mind dropping some info on how you screwed in your elements to get the water tight seal? I'm specifically wondering how you approached this since the dual element style requires the elements to be slightly bent. Seems like installing these could get a bit tricky. Maybe a stupid question but did you bend them before they were secured or after? Any info on your process for pulling this off would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Cheers.

NathPowe said:

Hey russki another question for you - would you mind dropping some info on how you screwed in your elements to get the water tight seal? I'm specifically wondering how you approached this since the dual element style requires the elements to be slightly bent. Seems like installing these could get a bit tricky. Maybe a stupid question but did you bend them before they were secured or after? Any info on your process for pulling this off would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Cheers.

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I used Kal's method (The Electric Brewery) - the only difference is that I used much cheaper single-gang boxes that I waterproofed with silicone. You are correct that the elements need to be bent slightly to fit into the kettle. I just did it over the corner of a wooden bench before I installed them - they bend easily. You just need a slight bend - you can see it in the pictures I posted.

Thanks russki.

Cheers.

Long time lurker but decided to finally register so I could be that guy to raise a dead thread.

Rise, rise from the dead!

I'm looking at cloning this system but I want to add a timer. (Yea, I'm flashy like that.) I'm not comfortable enough to design a system, but I'm sure I can build it. Has anyone using this design as a baseline added a timer to their control panel? I will use the larger project box to accomdate. (this one.)

And yes, I searched the forums for a diagram but my searching skills are sub-par and it seems most threads I come across are inundated with "use the search function" responses. We're creating a useless loop, people!

BeerdTraveler said:

Long time lurker but decided to finally register so I could be that guy to raise a dead thread.

Rise, rise from the dead!

I'm looking at cloning this system but I want to add a timer. (Yea, I'm flashy like that.) I'm not comfortable enough to design a system, but I'm sure I can build it. Has anyone using this design as a baseline added a timer to their control panel? I will use the larger project box to accomdate. (this one.)

And yes, I searched the forums for a diagram but my searching skills are sub-par and it seems most threads I come across are inundated with "use the search function" responses. We're creating a useless loop, people!

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All I can say is "WOW"

Drive on down the road.... So sorry you decided to join this forum.

WOW - !!!!

P-J said:

All I can say is "WOW"

Drive on down the road.... So sorry you decided to join this forum.

WOW - !!!!

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Not sure if sarcasm or serious...

At any rate, I was not trying to say anything negative about this forum. I have a terribly dry sense of humor that doesn't transfer well through text. I'm not good enough to contribute, so I've never really needed to register - well, I'm pretty sure I registered years ago using an old e-mail address but can't remember it. I've been brewing with extract while overseas and now that I'm back in the U.S., I want to build a new system and switch to all-grain. Thus, my research - which I started before I returned - had led me here. I bookmarked it and saved it until the time was right to start my build.

I saw that you, among many others, have significantly contributed to this thread and helped out others who had questions and thought I'd seek the same guidance. I'm sorry if that came across as anything different. I didn't want to start an entirely new thread.

I'm not seeing anything offensive in BeerdTraveler's posts... I don't mind an occasional zombie thread, even my own.

Anyway - as far as timer goes, I personally do not see a benefit in having one built-in - I just use my kitchen stove timer for mash times/boil/hop additions. If you really want to build one in - all you need is to feed it off one of the 120V supplies. Unless you want to have the timer to automatically shut things down, then you'll need to wire it to control the contactors in series with the switches.

If to do choose to have a timer, be sure it is one that you can pause, reset, and change values in a jiffy and maybe with just one hand.

I considered digital timers that would fit in a DIN slot. In the end, I found that having a really nice digital stopwatch around my neck when brewing was the most flexible way to keep track of timing. It is always at hand and is easy to adjust or reset. And I do that a lot. I pause the timer when adding the chiller at the 15min mark, I reset it to count whirlpool minutes, chilling times. Flexibility is key for me. Here is what I use. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00LPP2C46/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 It is worth trying the simple route before committing to a $100 DIN timer system.

Hello,

I have built the exact same setup with minor differences and have brewed several batches with it. It is a great compact system and I thank you for posting this. I would like to ask some questions regarding mash efficiency.

I have not been able to obtain anything above 1.070 with this system, and my efficiency is very low (little below 60%). Yesterday, I brewed a batch with 19 pounds of grain and 1.25qt/lb water to grain ration, and got only 1.066 OG after boil. Here's what I did :

1. Heated mashing water (about 20 qt) to 153F;
2. Put the basket in water with all the grain in a open nylon bag, just like you.
3. Recirculated for 60 min.
4. Added about 8 qt of water at 170F. Raised wort temp to 170.
5. Recirculated for 20 min.
6. Raised the basket above wort level (using a long SS rod through the holes in the basked that sits of the rim of the kettle.
7. Recirculated wort at 170F for 20 min.
8. Stopped the pump and squeeze the bag.
9. Took a sample and cooled it, go 1.054 gravity, which translated to 1.066 after boil.

What am I doing wrong/What steps do you take?

Thanks!

Have you experimented with a finer crush? That can make a huge difference and isn't as big of a deal with the biab method like it is with traditional all grain.

Also, are you stirring really well and making sure to break up any dough balls?

I have a similar system and process and regularly get between 70 and up to 80%. My guess would be one of those two things I mentioned would make a difference.

Thanks for the reply,

I did not experiment with a finer crush as I'm afraid the flour smudge will deposit on the elements and burn. I had some problems with this with 2000W LWD 120V elements and now switched to longer 240V elements used at 25% maximum output (about 1325W). I believe that one of the reasons that this happens is because I brew with wheat very often. Did you see a big difference going to a finer crush? I think that even without it I should be able to get more than 60%.

I usually stir every once in a while (like every 15-20 min), not all the way down so that the filtered particles are not disturbed. Do you stir more than this?

Also, Russki in PM suggested that I use full water volume, which seems to be the norm for this kind of BIAB setup. I should have mentioned that I usually do full water volume and only tried to bring it down to textbook water-to-grain ratios to try and get better efficiency than 60%.

One of my hypotheses is that perhaps water channels to the sides of the basket/bag and does not go all the way to the bottom of the grain. I was thinking of fitting a bucket of a plastic that would be food grade and resist those temperatures inside the basket, and cut the bottom so that water doesn't have a choice but to make it all the way through the grain.

Another thing I just got is a better sparge arm that will even out my water/wort input at the top of the grain bed.

However, I really do not understand why you guys seem to get way better efficiency that I do with this setup. I really must be doing something wrong.

Does anyone still have the wiring diagram for this build? Thanks!