I need help to adjust my water profile for Northern Brewer limited edition Bock kit

My water: Ca 7 SO4 27 Mg 1 Na 21 Alk 30

I'm having a hard time adjusting the right combination of salts to get the Alkalinity and PH high enough along with keeping the Chloride/Sulphate ratio correct for this type of beer without adding too many salts. Is there a particular salt I need to avoid adding too much of.

Grain bill for the 6 gal batch kit:

Sustainor Non-Traditional Bock Limited Edition All-Grain Kit

--10 lbs. German Munich
-- 1.5 lbs Weyermann Rye Malt
-- 0.5 lbs Caramel Wheat Malt
-- 0.25 lbs Chocolate Rye Malt
-- 0.25 lbs Weyermann Caramunich I

Brewers try to reduce pH and alkalinity - not raise them. For a Bock the proper chloride to sulfate ratio is infinite i.e. no sulfate. For the water you have dilution of 1:1 or 2:1 with DI water would be desirable to get the sulfate down by a factor of 2 to 3. Having done that you will want to add about a gram of calcium chloride to each gallon to be sure there is enough calcium for the various brewing reactions. With the water prepared this way mash pH will probably be high. You can add 2 - 3% acidulated malt to the grist to fix that.

ajdelange said:

Brewers try to reduce pH and alkalinity - not raise them. For a Bock the proper chloride to sulfate ratio is infinite i.e. no sulfate. For the water you have dilution of 1:1 or 2:1 with DI water would be desirable to get the sulfate down by a factor of 2 to 3. Having done that you will want to add about a gram of calcium chloride to each gallon to be sure there is enough calcium for the various brewing reactions. With the water prepared this way mash pH will probably be high. You can add 2 - 3% acidulated malt to the grist to fix that.

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Interesting. Thank you. I was trying to put the Ph in the desired range of 5.2-5.7. When adding salts to the ez water calculator I am struggling to get Ph up to that range, but are you saying to let it stay low? It hangs out around the 5.10's. But of course that's estimated Ph. I do have access to unlimited RO water. Maybe I should use that.

My RO water: Calcium .5 Sulfate .66 Mg 0 Sodium 1.5 Alk 2

Entered the numbers from my RO water report and the results are better.

Ph 5.65
RA 9
Cl/SO4 2.44


If the mash Ph is high wouldn't adding acidulated malt raise the Ph to an undesirable range?

Other way round. Acid releases hydrogen ions and as pH = -log(hydrogen_ion_concentration) pH goes down.

Your water is quite soft. Diluted with RO water is is even softer. Thus calcium reaction with malt wont result in much lowering of mash pH. You are totally reliant on the acids in the malts to do that. The malts you are using are not that dark and probably don't contain enough acid to take you below 5.4 - but they might. It depends on the particular malts used. I am guessing based on experience. The spreadsheet guesses based on a model. The only way to be certain is to measure mash pH and I highly recommend this. Strips are a poor substitute for a meter as they generally seem to read 0.3 low but if you are just starting out in all grain (which I assume to be the case as you are using a kit) you don't want to be fooling with a meter so use the strips with which any reading 5 or above should be OK.

I may be speaking the language wrong. When I speak of raising or lowering the Ph, I'm speaking of the actual number. 5.2 be lower than 5.7.

So if my Ph is 5.8 and I want to get it lower I mean get it lower than 5.8. Like down to 5.2.

Are we on the same page or am I speaking incorrectly?

ajdelange said:

Other way round. Acid releases hydrogen ions and as pH = -log(hydrogen_ion_concentration) pH goes down.

Your water is quite soft. Diluted with RO water is is even softer. Thus calcium reaction with malt wont result in much lowering of mash pH. You are totally reliant on the acids in the malts to do that. The malts you are using are not that dark and probably don't contain enough acid to take you below 5.4 - but they might. It depends on the particular malts used. I am guessing based on experience. The spreadsheet guesses based on a model. The only way to be certain is to measure mash pH and I highly recommend this. .

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So I can measure the mash Ph then add the acidulated malt to the grist as needed to lower the Ph closer to 5.2 if my Ph is above or close to say 5.7?
But what Ph should I be trying to get to?

ajdelange said:

Strips are a poor substitute for a meter as they generally seem to read 0.3 low but if you are just starting out in all grain (which I assume to be the case as you are using a kit) you don't want to be fooling with a meter so use the strips with which any reading 5 or above should be OK.

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My 2nd all grain. I was working on another recipe when I received e-mail from Northern Brewer about a limited edition kit so i figured I give it a try.

jetmac said:

So I can measure the mash Ph then add the acidulated malt to the grist as needed to lower the Ph closer to 5.2 if my Ph is above or close to say 5.7?

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Yes.

jetmac said:

But what Ph should I be trying to get to?

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That question does not have a specific answer. Various authors and practicing brewers consider various ranges best. My own feeling is that 5.4 - 5.5 at room temperature is best.


WRT pH: suppose you have a solution with 1.58489E-06 moles of hydrogen ions per liter. The pH of that solution is -log(1.58489E-06) = 5.8. If you now add acid sufficient to double the number of hydrogen ions you would have 2*1.58489E-06 and the pH would be -log(2*1.58489E-06) = 5.5. So when the amount of acid goes up the pH goes down. This confuses a lot of people at first.

I have found that although a great tool, the ez water calculator isn't spot on, it will get you close. Since i've been using a ph meter, my mash is always a bit higher than ez predicts it to be.

ajdelange said:

So when the amount of acid goes up the pH goes down. This confuses a lot of people at first.

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Yes

wildwest450 said:

I have found that although a great tool, the ez water calculator isn't spot on, it will get you close. Since i've been using a ph meter, my mash is always a bit higher than ez predicts it to be.

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Yes, and it states that on the graph. So instead of just pitching in some 5.2 I would like to try to have some control over the outcome even if it's not complete control. It should get me closer to what I desire rather than not adjusting it at all.