Closed-circuit Fermentor-to-Keg Transfer

Having major issues with getting hop trub stuck in the keg's outpost/poppits while transferring my beer from my ssBrewtech Chronical fermentor to a corny keg.

I currently transfer the beer via a close-circuit system, in which I apply a low amount of CO2 on the fermentor and push the beer from the sample port. The problem is, even the smallest amount of hop material is clogging the outpost, hindering transfer. I constantly have to disassemble the outpost, clear it of trub, then continue the transfer.

I tend to dry hop quite a bit and I'm not looking to decrease the amount of dry hops I use. Also, I don't like dry-hopping in bags and get better results with putting loose hops into the chronical. I don't think there is a filter I can put on the valve going out of the chronical. Would removing the poppit from the outpost allow smoother transfer? Would that even work?

Any recs/suggestions are welcome. THANKS!

Sorry don't have any fixes for you, but I have the same problem transferring from my stainless brewbucket using gravity.
I've gone back to the hose in the corny through the lid opening because of it.
I hope someone has a good solution, because I like the idea of minimal oxygen exposure, especially on hoppy beers.

singybrue said:

Sorry don't have any fixes for you, but I have the same problem transferring from my stainless brewbucket using gravity.
I've gone back to the hose in the corny through the lid opening because of it.
I hope someone has a good solution, because I like the idea of minimal oxygen exposure, especially on hoppy beers.

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Would removing the poppit work? Or would the beer not flow into the keg...?

You could try to filter through a hop rocket type device first. That should catch the stray pellet hops.

How much hops are you putting in the ferm? Do you have a bottom port you can drop the dry hops from before racking?

Gustatorian said:

Would removing the poppit work? Or would the beer not flow into the keg...?

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They'll get stuck in the disconnects too. Ask me how i know...

A good cold crash typically prevents this. In cases that I have stuck I remove the poppet from the QD and the keg post.

schematix said:

You could try to filter through a hop rocket type device first. That should catch the stray pellet hops.

How much hops are you putting in the ferm? Do you have a bottom port you can drop the dry hops from before racking?

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There is a dump valve, but I clear that the best I can without removing too much beer.

It's a 7 gallon fermentor and I usually brew 6 gallons so that I'm assured 5 gallons into the keg with the massive amount of dry-hops. I usually dry-hop between 6-8 ounces into the fermentor.

Gustatorian said:

There is a dump valve, but I clear that the best I can without removing too much beer.

It's a 7 gallon fermentor and I usually brew 6 gallons so that I'm assured 5 gallons into the keg with the massive amount of dry-hops. I usually dry-hop between 6-8 ounces into the fermentor.

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That sounds delicious.

What about adding the dry hops in a large mesh bag weighed down with a stainless fitting? Not quite freeballin', but that's what i always used to do with that much hops.

schematix said:

That sounds delicious.

What about adding the dry hops in a large mesh bag weighed down with a stainless fitting? Not quite freeballin', but that's what i always used to do with that much hops.

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Maybe so. My decision for using loose hops is two-parts. One, I can purge the hops with CO2 prior to dry-hopping. I don't really know if that does much, but even still, the hops initially sit on top of the wort/beer, and I assume the krausen/CO2 bed assists with keeping any O2 out of the wort/beer. Weighing down a mesh bag full of hops will certainly introduce oxygen into the wort because of it being submerged immediately. Secondly, I feel like a mesh bag doesn't allow enough hop extraction. With loose hops, you get maximum hop/wort contact.

schematix said:

They'll get stuck in the disconnects too. Ask me how i know...

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Yes, this has been my issue

Gustatorian said:

Maybe so. My decision for using loose hops is two-parts. One, I can purge the hops with CO2 prior to dry-hopping. I don't really know if that does much, but even still, the hops initially sit on top of the wort/beer, and I assume the krausen/CO2 bed assists with keeping any O2 out of the wort/beer. Weighing down a mesh bag full of hops will certainly introduce oxygen into the wort because of it being submerged immediately. Secondly, I feel like a mesh bag doesn't allow enough hop extraction. With loose hops, you get maximum hop/wort contact.

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I agree with you on both points. Had the same experience myself.

Another option ($$$) is to do something like what Sierra Nevada does with their torpedo. Essentially it's a vessel that they recirculate the beer through for dry hopping. You'd need a pump and a pressure-capable vessel but it would keep the hops out of the fermenter. Your dry hopping could be done in a few hours to a day too.

schematix said:

I agree with you on both points. Had the same experience myself.

Another option ($$$) is to do something like what Sierra Nevada does with their torpedo. Essentially it's a vessel that they recirculate the beer through for dry hopping. You'd need a pump and a pressure-capable vessel but it would keep the hops out of the fermenter. Your dry hopping could be done in a few hours to a day too.

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Hmmmm, interesting. If you could send me more details on that, I'd love it. I assume you'd never a pressure-capable vessel in order to push CO2 onto the beer? Seems like cycling beer through a pump on a homebrew level is asking for oxidation...

Ditch the ball-lock disconnect entirely on the keg end of your transfer tubing. I found that if I pull the ball-lock post off the keg I can slide my 3/8 siphon tubing right over the threads with the dip tube still in place. You might find a different ID works for you, but something will.

Both the keg post and the ball-lock disconnect are loaded with springs and small bits that like to clog, better to remove them entirely if you can.

Gustatorian said:

Hmmmm, interesting. If you could send me more details on that, I'd love it. I assume you'd never a pressure-capable vessel in order to push CO2 onto the beer? Seems like cycling beer through a pump on a homebrew level is asking for oxidation...

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I'm going to defer you to a google search for more details. Try "dry hopping with hop rocket and pump". There are a number of different systems out there people have built for home brew.

The gist of it is something like:

Keg -> Pump -> Hop Rocket/Torpedo -> Keg

Obviously if you want to avoid oxidation you need to purge the lines, pump AND hop rocket BEFORE you start recirculating. I could see this done in a number of ways. If set up properly you could use the natural fermentation gasses to purge for you, or you could hook up your CO2 tank and do it as well.

Reminder I didn't say this was going to be easy or cheap!

BeardedBrews said:

Ditch the ball-lock disconnect entirely on the keg end of your transfer tubing. I found that if I pull the ball-lock post off the keg I can slide my 3/8 siphon tubing right over the threads with the dip tube still in place. You might find a different ID works for you, but something will.

Both the keg post and the ball-lock disconnect are loaded with springs and small bits that like to clog, better to remove them entirely if you can.

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Do you not have issues when the chunks start coming back out at serving time?

BeardedBrews said:

Ditch the ball-lock disconnect entirely on the keg end of your transfer tubing. I found that if I pull the ball-lock post off the keg I can slide my 3/8 siphon tubing right over the threads with the dip tube still in place. You might find a different ID works for you, but something will.

Both the keg post and the ball-lock disconnect are loaded with springs and small bits that like to clog, better to remove them entirely if you can.

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Why not just keep the disconnect on there but remove the spring/poppit from the out post? Shouldn't beer flow in seamlessly?

Gustatorian said:

Why not just keep the disconnect on there but remove the spring/poppit from the out post? Shouldn't beer flow in seamlessly?

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If you're going to take all that stuff out you might as well just skip the QD since you have to put it back together anyways. Also less restriction so it should flow better without the QD on there.

schematix said:

If you're going to take all that stuff out you might as well just skip the QD since you have to put it back together anyways. Also less restriction so it should flow better without the QD on there.

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How do you connect then? It seems like you would have to screw something on in order to get a good seal...

Gustatorian said:

How do you connect then? It seems like you would have to screw something on in order to get a good seal...

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You use tubing that is a little bit smaller than the port on top of the keg. The threaded piece is around 5/8" if i remember correctly (varies by mfr). So you use a 1/2" tube and it fits snug.

Quick question
what is the benefit of doing a QD closed circuit transfer vs. purging the keg w/ co2 opening it and just racking w/ a long enough tub to reach the bottom? Not trying to hijack here just been trying to learn this for a while as I've debated going to a closed circuit system myself, since i ferment in a bottling bucket it would be pretty easy. Thanks!

SGTSparty said:

Quick question
what is the benefit of doing a QD closed circuit transfer vs. purging the keg w/ co2 opening it and just racking w/ a long enough tub to reach the bottom? Not trying to hijack here just been trying to learn this for a while as I've debated going to a closed circuit system myself, since i ferment in a bottling bucket it would be pretty easy. Thanks!

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Main reason is oxidation. It has a dramatic effect on really hoppy beers.

If you're racking from a bucket with an auto-siphon you might as well just rack down the center of the keg and try to avoid splashing. With an open lid you've oxidized to the point it doesn't matter anymore.

It's really an all or nothing process. To do really low dissolved oxygen brewing you need to have a fully closed fermentation with natural carbonation and transfer under pressure.

Also CO2 purging kegs isn't enough. You really need to fill them up with water through the dip tube until water starts shooting out the safety valve, then CO2 purge it.

schematix said:

You use tubing that is a little bit smaller than the port on top of the keg. The threaded piece is around 5/8" if i remember correctly (varies by mfr). So you use a 1/2" tube and it fits snug.

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What type of tubing would you use?

Regarding "just take the pop-it out", the ball-lock disconnect also has a pin that needs depressed, you would have to take out both.

Regarding "why not just siphon into the purged keg instead of close-looping everything" I actually use CO2 to push the beer out of the fermentor, works pretty well and keeps O2 out

Regarding "what type of tube" I use vinyl, I think it's 3/8, but it might be 5/8. I can't quite remember.

This is some food for thought. One of my IRL brewing buddies just sent me a link to this device he got for filtering hops from fermenter to keg. I can't vouche for it and have my concerns (oxidation, nucleation for foam and capacity), but i think there could be potential here:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0064OG6QI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

It would still need to be purged (you could even purge with beer, but would need to toss at least the first pint) but might prevent a relatively small amount of hops from getting to the poppet or QD pin.

For $20 bucks i'd say try it.

I've really found cold crash + brew an extra gallon or so and be selective about what you transfer to work.

jddevinn said:

I've really found cold crash + brew an extra gallon or so and be selective about what you transfer to work.

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How fast does cold-crashing take for suspended hops to settle? It seems like temperature wouldn't be a factor...

Gustatorian said:

How fast does cold-crashing take for suspended hops to settle? It seems like temperature wouldn't be a factor...

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What?

I dry hop with pellets for two reasons: less oxygen introduction than leaf/cones, and they drop hard with temperature.

I typically dry-hop at ~68°F for 4-5 days, always with loose pellets just tossed in the carboy, then crash to ~34°F for a couple days or more.

By the time the beer temperature has dropped a mere ~10 degrees F, the pellet mush has already sunk to the bottom...

Cheers!

I think your 4-5 days has more impact than the cold.

That would be a startling conclusion

Try again: after four or five days, the fermentors have a thick layer of floating pellet mush.
Temperature falls ~10-something degrees F on the way to ~34°F, mush hits the bottom of the carboy.
I mean, we're talking a few hours here. If that happened on Day Four instead, does that help?

Pretty simple, actually. And by the time I keg that batch a couple/few days later, the yeast and trubby bits will have dropped, too, so I'm kegging clear beer.

Cold is magical

Cheers.

schematix said:

Main reason is oxidation. It has a dramatic effect on really hoppy beers.



If you're racking from a bucket with an auto-siphon you might as well just rack down the center of the keg and try to avoid splashing. With an open lid you've oxidized to the point it doesn't matter anymore.



It's really an all or nothing process. To do really low dissolved oxygen brewing you need to have a fully closed fermentation with natural carbonation and transfer under pressure.



Also CO2 purging kegs isn't enough. You really need to fill them up with water through the dip tube until water starts shooting out the safety valve, then CO2 purge it.

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Do you have any DO data to back this up?

tagz said:

Do you have any DO data to back this up?

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Can you be more specific as to the information you are looking for?

The last time I went from fermentor to keg (I just have a spigot on mine), I also applied low-pressure CO2 to the fermentor to not only try to force it out, but keep CO2 in the headspace above the beer.

What I found is that more pressure seemed to create eddies where the spigot exited the fermentor, and that stirred up yeast-cake and trub.

I'm transferring from a fermentor to keg tomorrow, and I'm just going to let gravity do its thing--and I'll add a little CO2 just to keep O2 low in the headspace, but not under pressure.

I'm wondering if you're having the same problem, i.e., you're stirring stuff up by putting it under pressure. Just a thought.

schematix said:

Can you be more specific as to the information you are looking for?

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Any hard info on the difference between the dissolved oxygen in a closed transfer and a siphon transfer? You seem pretty passionate about it, just wondered if it was based on actual experimentation/data or just anecdotal experience.

mongoose33 said:

I'm wondering if you're having the same problem, i.e., you're stirring stuff up by putting it under pressure. Just a thought.

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Stirring stuff up isn't the problem. In fact i actually send my racking cane straight to the bottom edge of the fermentor. I definitely get some chunks, but it clears up quickly and i get maximum fill from the fermenter. In fact my last batch i actually sent beer out the PRV at the top of the keg. Ooops. The chunks settle out quickly though, and don't introduce oxygen. To me racking under pressure is more about speed than DO.

tagz said:

Any hard info on the difference between the dissolved oxygen in a closed transfer and a siphon transfer? You seem pretty passionate about it, just wondered if it was based on actual experimentation/data or just anecdotal experience.

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Got it.

So hard data, if you run the numbers on what the volume of a few (volume) ounces of regular air inside a keg will do to DO, you'll see its several PPM, which is above recommended levels. There are a lot of easily found sources that indicate DO should be <1 ppm in packaged beer. There are also a lot of easily found sources that indicate the rate of DO is very rapid.

Anecdotally, I've noticed an enormous difference in the flavor of ALL of my beers (hoppy and otherwise) when I started water purging my kegs. I fill the keg from a faucet until it spills over, then i cap and connect the water supply to the OUT disconnect with the PRV open and a gas QD on until it spills out of both. I then take the gas QD off, and then very quickly close the PRV and shut the water off. I then use CO2 to push the keg empty. When I rack i connect the racking cane to the pressuzed keg and use the CO2 in the keg to purge the racking cane. I then pressurize the keg, open the PRV, and go.

It's kind of shocking to me that you could get that much o2 pickup from a still surface over a short period of time. Some the wort aeration experiments show folks that have a hard time getting over 4ppm when they shake the hell out of the carboy for 45 seconds. I don't doubt that your product might be a bit more shelf stable than someone that siphons, but I'd love to see brulosopher or someone do some DO and triangle tests. My hunch is that the difference is negligible for homebrew consumption. Now if your beer was sitting on a warm shelf in a beer store for 6-8 weeks, that might be a different story.

By the way, just to clarify, I'm genuinely curious, not trying to call anyone out.

tagz said:

It's kind of shocking to me that you could get that much o2 pickup from a still surface over a short period of time. Some the wort aeration experiments show folks that have a hard time getting over 4ppm when they shake the hell out of the carboy for 45 seconds. I don't doubt that your product might be a bit more shelf stable than someone that siphons, but I'd love to see brulosopher or someone do some DO and triangle tests. My hunch is that the difference is negligible for homebrew consumption. Now if your beer was sitting on a warm shelf in a beer store for 6-8 weeks, that might be a different story.

By the way, just to clarify, I'm genuinely curious, not trying to call anyone out.

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The fact that the surface isn't noticably moving isn't the issue. The real issue is you've got basically about a square foot of area for oxygen exchange. The thing with oxygen is that it takes very little to change a beer permanently (not necessarily spoil it or make it unstable, just different). You have to keep it under control at every step of the process or it'll exceed the threshold.

If i had a choice between siphoning and co2 pressure, or a keg that was co2 purged and a keg that was water purged, i'd take a water purged keg with the siphon any day. There is a ton more oxygen in the head space of a fully keg than you'd pick up from siphoning.

How fast are you consuming your home brew? It typically takes me 6 months or more to get through a batch, but i also have 9 active kegs I am working on more or less equally.

schematix said:

I fill the keg from a faucet until it spills over, then i cap and connect the water supply to the OUT disconnect with the PRV open and a gas QD on until it spills out of both. I then take the gas QD off, and then very quickly close the PRV and shut the water off. I then use CO2 to push the keg empty. When I rack i connect the racking cane to the pressuzed keg and use the CO2 in the keg to purge the racking cane. I then pressurize the keg, open the PRV, and go.

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When you do this. Are you adding star San to the keg? Or just assuming the tap water is clean enough to not cause any problems

At first I thought... "but I like to sanitize my kegs". But I guess it'd be easy enough to add an oz of star San before you started filling the keg with water.

mclaughlindw4 said:

When you do this. Are you adding star San to the keg? Or just assuming the tap water is clean enough to not cause any problems

At first I thought... "but I like to sanitize my kegs". But I guess it'd be easy enough to add an oz of star San before you started filling the keg with water.

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Sometimes i'll do a rinse with a strong star san solution before the water purge. I don't waste 1oz of starsan per keg. Much of this depends on what the keg was doing previously. If it was holding beer and has been kept cold and unopened i'll do a mimimal cleaning.

Risk of infection from fermented beer is very low and tap water is relatively safe from a micro perspective to begin with (at least in the US).

schematix said:

Sometimes i'll do a rinse with a strong star san solution before the water purge. I don't waste 1oz of starsan per keg. Much of this depends on what the keg was doing previously. If it was holding beer and has been kept cold and unopened i'll do a mimimal cleaning.

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I don't just throw the Star-San away, I run it into an empty keg or, if I don't have one handy, a 5-gallon bucket. I'm with you--I don't want to waste an ounce of Star-San per keg.

schematix said:

Anecdotally, I've noticed an enormous difference in the flavor of ALL of my beers (hoppy and otherwise) when I started water purging my kegs. I fill the keg from a faucet until it spills over, then i cap and connect the water supply to the OUT disconnect with the PRV open and a gas QD on until it spills out of both. I then take the gas QD off, and then very quickly close the PRV and shut the water off. I then use CO2 to push the keg empty. When I rack i connect the racking cane to the pressuzed keg and use the CO2 in the keg to purge the racking cane. I then pressurize the keg, open the PRV, and go.

Click to expand...

This is an impossibility for me due to my liquid-out tubes being cut about an inch above the bottom of the keg. I fear that I'd leave too much sanitizer at the bottom of my keg and it would water-down or create a strange flavor within my beer.

Today I kegged 5 gallons from my ssBrewTech Chronical. I did a closed-circuit transfer from the sample port and put the conical under CO2 pressure. Since I've had issues with hop trub getting stuck within the QD OUT and the OUTpost, I removed the internal components of both QD and OUTpost and the beer flowed quickly and seamlessly. Sure, once I filled the keg I had to unscrew the OUTpost to reassemble the internal components, but I'm assuming that there was minimal oxygen exposure from that space during the reassemble. Furthermore, the only volume of the beer exposed to oxygen was maintained within liquid-out tube. I can't see that oxygen-exposed volume escaping to oxygenate the rest of the beer. I'll let you know how the beer turns out. Does anyone see any issues/flaws with this method???