Windows 10 - Finally some sanity

Another Windows 8 hater here. MS really screwed the pooch by trying to force everyone to use their Metro UI. And while Classic Shell does resolve the main Metro issue, Windows 8 still has other curious oddities that Classic Shell does not fix.

I'm hoping they get it right with Windows 10.

I think now I have poked around at everything I could find in Win8.1 and there are only two things about it that I really just hate.

1.) I hate how many apps require a microsoft account login for basic functionality. Really MS, I have to log in to my microsoft account for the calendar app?

2.) I hate how OneDrive is embedded into the OS. I know I can turn off the sync option in PC settings to essentially shut it down but I should be able to opt out if I choose to. Turn it off as a windows feature like I can with IE. Or just uninstall it as an app. From what I have read you have to really dig to strip it out.

I don't get what's the problem with OneDrive - if you don't want to use it, just ignore it.

But I've found it's super useful, personally. I installed it on my Win7 laptop not long ago, and migrated all my documents up to it. Left it on someone else's plate to back up my files. And guess what? A couple months after doing so, my laptop died, utterly and completely. So I picked up a new one, logged into Win8.1 (promptly installed Start8 because I didn't spring for a touchscreen laptop and that interface stinks with a mouse/keyboard), then went to my SkyDrive and all my files were right there where I had left them. And my phone automatically archives its photos there, so I can dump photos from the phone readily, preserving storage and easily making those photos accessible on my PC without ever having to manually synch anything. It's actually pretty convenient.

stratslinger said:

I don't get what's the problem with OneDrive - if you don't want to use it, just ignore it.

But I've found it's super useful, personally. I installed it on my Win7 laptop not long ago, and migrated all my documents up to it. Left it on someone else's plate to back up my files. And guess what? A couple months after doing so, my laptop died, utterly and completely. So I picked up a new one, logged into Win8.1 (promptly installed Start8 because I didn't spring for a touchscreen laptop and that interface stinks with a mouse/keyboard), then went to my SkyDrive and all my files were right there where I had left them. And my phone automatically archives its photos there, so I can dump photos from the phone readily, preserving storage and easily making those photos accessible on my PC without ever having to manually synch anything. It's actually pretty convenient.

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I don't have any need for it. My only problem is because I don't use the feature, don't need or want it. But I cannot remove it and therefore it is something I will have to periodically check to make sure it is behaving as I intend it to.

It's akin to the "fappening". Don't want files hacked on the cloud, don't put them there to get hacked. My issue is that I don't have an absolute choice here and now it is my responsibility to make sure it does not get updated to upload files by default when I should be able to remove it and just forget about it.

But it's literally one folder that you place files into (literally the "SkyDrive" folder), and they get uploaded to the cloud. Don't put files there, they don't get uploaded. It's not rocket surgery.

GilaMinumBeer said:

The only real security afforded to Linux, and Mac for that matter, is lack of numbers. I guarantee you that if enough people got onboard with Linux for it to be the majority OS, then it would have just as many security issues as MS and therefore measures would be taken to conceal the code to make it harder to hack.

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Disagree completely. In the enterprise/datacenter world, Linux is definitely the majority. Given that these systems are also major *targets* for hackers, as they generally contain sensitive or valuable data -- I think that there are inherent security advantages of open-source. One of the takeaways from Heartbleed was not that Linux was insecure, but rather that too many companies were relying on *others* to ensure Linux was secure instead of hiring security experts. It was a wake-up call that they needed to employ experts who would be scouring code for similar issues. In the Windows world they can't scour the code because it's closed-source, and thus only Microsoft has visibility into where it is or is not vulnerable.

Where I'll agree with you, however, is on the general malware/spyware/virus front. Most malware/spyware requires a user to actually install it or run it, usually due to their own poor security practices. Linux isn't targeted by most of these folks because so few people use Linux and generally the users of Linux are more tech-savvy about protecting themselves from these sorts of threats.

stratslinger said:

But it's literally one folder that you place files into (literally the "SkyDrive" folder), and they get uploaded to the cloud. Don't put files there, they don't get uploaded. It's not rocket surgery.

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No. OneDrive also has settings to upload photos and videos automatically.

Besides, the "ignore it and it will go away" mentality does not suit me. Never seems to work, anywhere, in life.

GilaMinumBeer said:

Besides, the "ignore it and it will go away" mentality does not suit me. Never seems to work, anywhere, in life.

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Except with Pedio's ropiness (afterall, this is a brewing forum )

stpug said:

Except with Pedio's ropiness (afterall, this is a brewing forum )

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There should be a coccus for that.

bwarbiany said:

disagree completely. In the enterprise/datacenter world, linux is definitely the majority. Given that these systems are also major *targets* for hackers, as they generally contain sensitive or valuable data -- i think that there are inherent security advantages of open-source. One of the takeaways from heartbleed was not that linux was insecure, but rather that too many companies were relying on *others* to ensure linux was secure instead of hiring security experts. It was a wake-up call that they needed to employ experts who would be scouring code for similar issues. In the windows world they can't scour the code because it's closed-source, and thus only microsoft has visibility into where it is or is not vulnerable.

Where i'll agree with you, however, is on the general malware/spyware/virus front. Most malware/spyware requires a user to actually install it or run it, usually due to their own poor security practices. Linux isn't targeted by most of these folks because so few people use linux and generally the users of linux are more tech-savvy about protecting themselves from these sorts of threats.

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+1

bwarbiany said:

Disagree completely. In the enterprise/datacenter world, Linux is definitely the majority. Given that these systems are also major *targets* for hackers, as they generally contain sensitive or valuable data -- I think that there are inherent security advantages of open-source. One of the takeaways from Heartbleed was not that Linux was insecure, but rather that too many companies were relying on *others* to ensure Linux was secure instead of hiring security experts. It was a wake-up call that they needed to employ experts who would be scouring code for similar issues. In the Windows world they can't scour the code because it's closed-source, and thus only Microsoft has visibility into where it is or is not vulnerable.

Where I'll agree with you, however, is on the general malware/spyware/virus front. Most malware/spyware requires a user to actually install it or run it, usually due to their own poor security practices. Linux isn't targeted by most Allof these folks because so few people use Linux and generally the users of Linux are more tech-savvy about protecting themselves from these sorts of threats.

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Way, way off base. from a desktop % Linux is about 1.5% vs. M$ 75%+-ish. Desktop are the target. *most* malware is targeting desktops, so 75-1, if I'm a greedy, enterprising, overly-curious hacker I'm going with a windows target.

Servers? pretty even, so it's a pick 'em, even if the "majority" of those Linux svrs are acting as VM for Windows guests, so Windows prob wins here too.

opinion that Linux svrs aren't properly protected by in house staff, 100% agree, way too many companies are outsourcing, because staff can't support Linux properly.

All per my experience as a It mgr for last 20+ yrs
P.S. - All Windows releases either suck or totally rock, until the next one comes out....., so going with the odd/even idea on that one...

All operating systems suck. Some suck less than others, naturally. OpenBSD sucks the least of them all, but I still prefer OS X for my laptop.

That said, non-mobile operating systems are seriously on the wane. They have fallen down to three functions now:

1. server
2. powerpoint / excel machine
3. gaming platform


They don't sell PCs in supermarkets anymore, there aren't shops where you go and buy all the components to build a machine anymore, you don't find PCs in the garbage anymore, they are rarely seen in second hand stores, etc.

Teens, and a large majority of adults, today don't even touch computers, everything is done via mobile phone or iPad. They don't use email, they don't use removable media, they don't even know what the hell a hard drive is. These teens today will be the managers tomorrow and mobile operating systems will definitely rule the day.

When it comes to mobile OS, you are compromised from day one.

Now is the time I like to point out that XP was supposed to be the last Windows operating system. That is why they did away with version numbers, it was supposed to be the Windows XP(erience). It was meant to be a subscription based OS where upgrades came out as service packs instead of new versions. This is especially fitting because it is still holding on and in existance. I still like you XP

Actually, they just discontinued all support for XP a few months ago. No more Service Packs, security fixes, or the like are available for it.

stratslinger said:

Actually, they just discontinued all support for XP a few months ago. No more Service Packs, security fixes, or the like are available for it.

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Hence 'supposed'. Funny thing is it still is on a lot of computers with no signs of fading away.

podz said:

All operating systems suck. Some suck less than others, naturally. OpenBSD sucks the least of them all, but I still prefer OS X for my laptop.

That said, non-mobile operating systems are seriously on the wane. They have fallen down to three functions now:

1. server
2. powerpoint / excel machine
3. gaming platform


They don't sell PCs in supermarkets anymore, there aren't shops where you go and buy all the components to build a machine anymore, you don't find PCs in the garbage anymore, they are rarely seen in second hand stores, etc.

Teens, and a large majority of adults, today don't even touch computers, everything is done via mobile phone or iPad. They don't use email, they don't use removable media, they don't even know what the hell a hard drive is. These teens today will be the managers tomorrow and mobile operating systems will definitely rule the day.

When it comes to mobile OS, you are compromised from day one.

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Gonna have to completely disagree. There are at least two shops here that sell mass amounts of individual components, not to mention the plethora of online places that do as well. I can walk into any one of these shops and pick components anywhere from cheap azz barely able to run an OS up to hard core liquid cooled video cards (what I use daily)

Not sure what industry/profession you are in, but the entire civil engineering community is still very much a 'desktop' user group, particularly the production group. The prices for laptops to be able to do what we do are outrageous, and the other 'mobile' units just are completely useless for our applications.

Email is still a huge part of corporate America at large, especially the "Professional" sector, 'removable' media (clarification-our use is high capacity "thumb drives") is a mainstay of how we transfer sensitive data to and from particular stations/users/field to office, and of course the hard drive goes with the use of said desktop, and that has gone from the easily damaged record player in a tiny box to an impact resistant high speed solid state drive that is quickly becoming the standard for high intensity production applications.
From what I have seen, any attempts to move these Professional and corporate users to some sort of "cloud" or pseudo social media communication method has been met with much head shaking and literally laughing out loud.

I don't see the production work stations going anywhere any time in the foreseeable future. As I mentioned in a previous post, Win7PRO is where we stop upgrading until the software can catch up to I guess now Win10. It is rare I have run across Win8 users that aren't simply managers that do zero production, and those that do occasionally do production.....yeah, they have the Win7 machine still sitting on their desk, loaded with the necessary software.

I've not read thru all the thread but am going to be in the minority when I say I have no problems with W8. That said, there's absolutely no reason to go from W7 to W8.
I build my own computers, have cable card tv tuners to record as many as 10 shows at a time (don't need to pay the cable man for a DVR box) and with Start8, I can get my W8 systems to look and act just like W7. Boot up times with a SSD only takes 10-12 seconds with W8 (I am not exaggerating) and I've not found any program that won't work for me yet.
I was a beta tester for Microsoft for Windows Vista and Windows 7 as well as Windows Media Center but no longer test anything for them.
I think Microsoft is trying too hard to be like Apple and Apple is trying to hard to come out with something new every 6 months and I am tired of it all.

DrunkleJon said:

Hence 'supposed'. Funny thing is it still is on a lot of computers with no signs of fading away.

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Most of our company's computers still run XP.

On an enterprise level, changing over can be hard. We "started" trying to convert everything to Win7 back in January, but getting all the bugs worked out has proven to be a huge task. We use a lot of custom-written software (and the man who wrote most of it is dead), and it has taken a lot of work to get it to play nice with a new OS.

We've just now got everything working like it should (knock on wood) on the few computers we switched over way back then as a "test run", so hopefully soon we can make the switch on all the other machines now that we actually know how to fix all the problems.

Needless to say lack of OS support/updates/security patches is a huge security risk in itself, so we are anxious to upgrade everything asap.

My brother tells me it's even worse at his company. They just finished converting all of their systems to XP about a year or so ago after a multi-year ordeal. Similar situation, lots of custom-software designed for Win98 that wasn't readily compatible with WinXP. By the time they get converted to Win7 or 8, it will probably be obsolete.

Yeah, we were supposed to be done upgrading all of ours months ago. Its amusing how slowly it all goes. And how well planned in some cases (not necessarily yours)

Edit: I meant how poorly planned it was in some cases, and not meaning yours. Ours has been a cluster...

DrunkleJon said:

Hence 'supposed'. Funny thing is it still is on a lot of computers with no signs of fading away.

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And still wants to push the Windows as a subscription based experience. I read that is what pushed OneDrive into the market. Get their files first, the push the OSLive.

I can't scratch my ass around a Windows 8 laptop without it reverting all my settings to Bing...

Between trying to run Google cloud apps on IE an using the preinstalled McAfee Digital Guantanamo Bay edition I'm apparently too stupid to use my own computer safely.

That would kill windows for me. especially if they made it so you could not have an offline only computer. Then again, that would be what the old Dell green disk is for.

DrunkleJon said:

That would kill windows for me. especially if they made it so you could not have an offline only computer. Then again, that would be what the old Dell green disk is for.

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Yeah. Not sure how that would work. I'd expect it'd be similar to what Win8 is now. You'd a very base copy of an OS on the system and be required to log-in for functionality of basic apps.

I've been using computers on a daily basis for getting close to 25 years now, I can remember learning DOS commands when I was 6-8 years old!! When I have to do a google search to figure out how to turn the DAMN THING OFF, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say MS missed the mark a bit!! Windows 8, is crap. Plain and simple. The overall user experience is frustrating to me; it makes you wonder what the hell MS was thinking! I can't imagine how any computer nerd, given the choice would actually WANT to use Windows 8.

DVD playback?? Why that's not important, watching movies is probably not even in the top 10 list of "things people use their PC for". Like many, of coarse I use 3rd party software for this, but the fact that it's missing is like including a can of MS spit that pops open in your face when you open the package.

As for Linux, I've used almost every version of it at some point or another, used to use red hat at work actually for 2 years, and while I do love Linux, the best bread only works in MS toasters. There are ways to run Windows programs virtually but the times I've tried it, it worked less than ideal. I ran a dual and triple boot on my personal machine for years. Even had the MAC OS X86 going at one time on an old AMD dual core. In the end, I just waved the white flag, MS wins. That doesn't mean, that I have to purchase a copy of every crap OS they try to shove down my throat though.

beernbourbon said:

Not too familiar with inner workings of any of them, but I do know that certain engineering software will not work on Win8. Namely Bentley products. They don't load properly, they don't work properly, total crash and burn. We have to use Win7 Pro until Bentley comes up with code that works with I guess now the Win10.
And no, it doesn't work on Linux either. The database component within that software was born of DOS, and the adapted it to Windows, and over the years it has gotten clumsier and clumsier..... but they are ready to roll out or are in process of rolling out a major update which will virtually eliminate the need for the 'add on' database component.

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Which Bentley product do you use? We use Promis-e V8i for schematics and wiring. We have a dedicated Promis-e server that does nothing but store Promis-e files and runs it's SQL database. It has 128gb of RAM and yet is extremely slow when opening a project and switching pages.

I'm hoping this major update that you are referring to does something to improve it's performance.


As far as Windows 10 Tech Preview...I ran it for a couple of days and it ran fine on my computer but when I realized MS was capturing keystrokes, I uninstalled it. Don't need MS to see what my porn fetish is.

bwarbiany said:

That's what I would do.

Oh, wait. Let me rephrase.

That's what I did.

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Unfortunately, there are too many non-Linux apps that I need/like (i.e. Lightroom for photo editing. GIMP is NOT Lightroom!!!!)

stratslinger said:

But it's literally one folder that you place files into (literally the "SkyDrive" folder), and they get uploaded to the cloud. Don't put files there, they don't get uploaded. It's not rocket surgery.

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So, Microsoft is now targeting DropBox and other cloud storage vendors. Nice. Wish the DOJ would go after them for building these features in that compete with other free/non-free apps like they did on IE. 'Course, notice how well THAT worked!

Fenduh said:

Which Bentley product do you use? We use Promis-e V8i for schematics and wiring. We have a dedicated Promis-e server that does nothing but store Promis-e files and runs it's SQL database. It has 128gb of RAM and yet is extremely slow when opening a project and switching pages.

I'm hoping this major update that you are referring to does something to improve it's performance.


As far as Windows 10 Tech Preview...I ran it for a couple of days and it ran fine on my computer but when I realized MS was capturing keystrokes, I uninstalled it. Don't need MS to see what my porn fetish is.

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MicroStation V8i SS3/Geopak SS3 Civil Engineering Suite
Geopak is the one that was originally DOS based. They are combining Geopak and Inroads into something called Open Roads, and it isn't an 'add on' so to speak. It holds the database component wholly within MicroStation, so the feeling is that it will speed everything up.
What we ran into, since I do true 3D modeling, was the graphics cards couldn't keep up, lots of lag time, occasional stutters. It was horrible. So, they tossed a liquid cooled one in my desktop, and that runs only the OS an MicroStation/Geopak. Nothing else on it. It's a pure production machine. But, I don't do nearly as much production as I used to, so I'm probably going to hand it over to my lead tech, and just stick with doing reviews here on my laptop...I don't need the hard core stuff any more, but he does....

podz said:

OpenBSD sucks the least of them all

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WOOO!




That is all.

You're right, most big companies have gone over to Linux on the server side. Seems to have been a lot of break-ins and data stolen from these same big companies lately as well... Linux's openness is also it's bain. There are so many people contributing code now, that there is no way to properly monitor all of the check-ins for backdoors and other security related issues. Plus all OSes depend on security software developed by the NSA. There is your backdoor in every OS right there. Add-in under-paid, under-qualified sysadmins and there goes the whole ball of wax. I still use all three major OSes, but I am under no disillusions that any of them are any better than the other. At the end of the day, it's a personal preference of what helps you get your work done best.

jcoxen said:

linux.

That is all.

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+1

beernbourbon said:

MicroStation V8i SS3/Geopak SS3 Civil Engineering Suite
Geopak is the one that was originally DOS based. They are combining Geopak and Inroads into something called Open Roads, and it isn't an 'add on' so to speak. It holds the database component wholly within MicroStation, so the feeling is that it will speed everything up.
What we ran into, since I do true 3D modeling, was the graphics cards couldn't keep up, lots of lag time, occasional stutters. It was horrible. So, they tossed a liquid cooled one in my desktop, and that runs only the OS an MicroStation/Geopak. Nothing else on it. It's a pure production machine. But, I don't do nearly as much production as I used to, so I'm probably going to hand it over to my lead tech, and just stick with doing reviews here on my laptop...I don't need the hard core stuff any more, but he does....

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In another lifetime, I was rendering terrain models for Golf parks after my coworker did the photogravimetry (kern anaalogue refitted for interface to pc). All done on a Win3.1 machine. Back in those days we still backed everything up on reel to reel tapes. Took FOREVER!

GilaMinumBeer said:

In another lifetime, I was rendering terrain models for Golf parks after my coworker did the photogravimetry. All done on a Win3.1 machine. Back in those days we still backed everything up on reel to reel tapes. Took FOREVER!

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I have heard tell of such archaic methods, but thankfully I was never a part of them.
Of course we get upset when it takes an intolerable2 seconds to initiate a command....lol

beernbourbon said:

I have heard tell of such archaic methods, but thankfully I was never a part of them.
Of course we get upset when it takes an intolerable2 seconds to initiate a command....lol

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Funniest part is that, at that time, THAT was cutting edge. "An analogue stereo plotter connected to a PC, Wow!"

Prior to that, we had to borrow processor time on a VAX system. Talk about waiting for a command to initiate. You could finish lunch before getting the results back from that thing. And that was considered fast.

Windows 8 was such a ****ing piece of crap...

It's like you're at a kiosk at a car dealership or something. It feels terrible, its not intuitive, it makes no sense for a personal computer.

/rant

I just want to say that I'm impressed w/ the civility of this conversation. I say this having borne witness to thousands of OS forum discussions on tech websites, where having a thread go 8 pages w/o anybody saying some variation of "you're an idiot if you don't agree with me" is nothing short of a miracle.

hunter_la5 said:

Why does it seem like every-other Windows OS is complete garbage?

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Agree. BroInLaw was convinced there were 2 MS teams, took turns pooting out OS. Of course, he also doesn't like my homebrew, so....

GilaMinumBeer said:

I hate how many apps require a microsoft account login for basic functionality.

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Agree. Learned hard way to make local user only. ONLY.

hunter_la5 said:

Most of our company's computers still run XP.

On an enterprise level, changing over can be hard.

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Feel. Your. Pain. We still have to have an AT machine, stored 3 in a vault for future, in order to run ABradley stuff that they refuse to upgrade.

GilaMinumBeer said:

"An analogue stereo plotter connected to a PC, Wow!"

Prior to that, we had to borrow processor time on a VAX system. Talk about waiting for a command to initiate. You could finish lunch before getting the results back from that thing. And that was considered fast.

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Calcomp Plotters. Ahhhh. LSI/11, programming the front panel by flipping the levers to create bytes then the STORE lever. Ahhhh. Miss those days, I do not. Paper tape teletypes, card punch(eat) machines, Line Printers that shook the floors. 9" reels, cake platter "disks", 8" floppies, daisy wheel printers. The good ole days.

Win8 is fine; it doesn't wow me enough to move off Win7. Or Ubuntu.

balrog said:

Agree. Learned hard way to make local user only. ONLY.

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I am tempted to revert back to a Local only account. But, I really do like the Live Tile functionality on the start screen. I like it as a screen saver. It would be perfect as a lock screen with user configurable tiles. Link a RSS feed to a tile and let it run as a ticker, or link a website to a tile say a local movie theater to blip current movie listings, etc...

balrog said:

Calcomp Plotters. Ahhhh. LSI/11, programming the front panel by flipping the levers to create bytes then the STORE lever. Ahhhh. Miss those days, I do not. Paper tape teletypes, card punch(eat) machines, Line Printers that shook the floors. 9" reels, cake platter "disks", 8" floppies, daisy wheel printers. The good ole days.

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Calcomp pen plotters, ahhh. Nothing like getting 98% through a plot on thick vellum only to have the pen run dry.


Actually, I digress, I was THRILLED when the pen ran out mid plot. Because it meant more time NOT being in the blueprint room smelling ammonia.

DrunkleJon said:

Hence 'supposed'. Funny thing is it still is on a lot of computers with no signs of fading away.

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So? You can still find computers with Windows 3.1 installed on them. Doesn't mean it's still a viable operating system. And slowly, the same will happen to XP as software upgrades force OS upgrades, and file sizes and hardware requirements force system upgrades.