All Grain / Extract?

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Raffie

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I saw a couple of articles that said doing all grain only saved a couple of dollars over extract and that all grain you could fine tune the beer better.
But needed more equiptment and took longer.

Anything else why I should all grain over extract if I'm already making real good beer?
 
I saw a couple of articles that said doing all grain only saved a couple of dollars over extract and that all grain you could fine tune the beer better.
But needed more equiptment and took longer.

Anything else why I should all grain over extract if I'm already making real good beer?

Nope. If you are happy with your beer, and your procedures, I say no. The only reason to change is if you want to do something you can't do with extract brewing- maybe a decoction for example. Or use ingredients that have to be mashed. There are some wonderful extract beers, and some extract/steeping grains brewers make great beers. If you're satisfied, that is the important thing.

I save more than "a couple dollars" though. If I have the hops in my freezer already (those are the most expensive part of brewing, in my opinion), I can make a batch of beer for $10-$15, depending on what I'm making. That seems a lot cheaper than extract, because the last time I bought extract it was about $13 for 3 pounds.
 
I think you hit it on the head. Although I think you can save a lot of $$ AG.

I believe that while a person can make award wining beer using Extract it is MUCH easier to make award winning beer AG.

HOWEVER - as you said - you already make good beer. More equipment, longer brew days are a draw back.

I would love to go AG IF - I had extra time and equipment. However - going from 3.5 hours a week to 6 hours a week brewing is a draw back for me at this point.

IS AG a goal? no not really. Not that I have anything against AG but at this point I'm very happy with Mini Mashs.
 
I am All Grain after 3 extract batches and couldn't be happier! What i like is tinkering to make new equipment, having more control over the finished product, and saving money in the long run by washing yeast and buying in bulk.

I would try to find a friend or someone in your area that you could "try" an all-grain brew and see if it is all the hype :D
 
If your happy that's great. I wasn't. The extract brews I made were from LME and they all had the same basic flavor, and a brown color to them. They weren't bad, just the same. I switched to AG and the beer I made was like night and day different than extract. Having said all that I know now that there were things I could have done to change my extract brews. Full boils and late addition DME could have helped the quality. But I made the switch and I'm happy.
 
The brewer is the most important ingredient to any recipe, be it extract, partial mash or all-grain. Not only should you be satisfied with your results, you should be continually polishing your process and dialing in with your equipment- working within its limitations and still crafting beer you are proud of. This is where the proverbial rubber hits the road.

I enjoy all-grain brewing- because it allows me to more intimately experience the crafting of beer from crushing the malt through packaging in the same manner as commercial breweries, just scaled down to my purposes. I won't give you the same tired lines about freshness and perceived quality differences, because I don't consider AG brewing to be the sole path to making excellent craft beer. The brewer does that, not the process.
 
making beer is like baking a cake. you can do everything from scratch ingredients, or you can use some pre-fab ingredients.

in my analogy, a box of cake mix is the same as a can of extract. you still have some control over the recipe (whole eggs, or only egg whites...vegetable oil vs. melted butter or margarine...skim milk vs. whole...).

you'll find professional brewers/cake makers always go from scratch...but that doesn't mean the beer/cake from a 'box' is bad or inferior...just a different process.


I myself like to tweak everything so I brew AG only at this point.
 
yeah, for me it wasn't so much dissatisfaction with my extract beers (which ranged from really good to really bad, depending on freshness, process, recipe etc.) as it was a desire to gain the experience of doing it.

sort of the same reason i got into homebrewing in the first place. we have plenty of great beer available around here, and after equipment costs i wont be saving any money in the forseeable future, i just like making stuff and all grain is one more step in that direction.
 
When I first started (with the canned kits) I had a lot of the same things as Short Drive -- many of them seemed to taste about the same. Some were very good though.

After a few months I moved on to all-malt+specialty grain kits and have been very happy with the results. More recently, for my last 6 or 7 batches I've been doing late extract additions. I've only sampled 1 of those batches yet so it's too early to have a good opinion on how much it's improved my beer. I can't do full boils yet though.

I'm working on going to all-grain brewing as I have all the parts for a 10-gallon round cooler MLT. I still need to get a burner, kettle and chiller (and probably a grain mill???). I was hoping to do my first AG batch yet this year, but I don't know if it will happen.

For me, even though it seems bad at first, the costs of going to AG aren't actually that much as I'm gonna need most of the equipment anyway for full-boil extract batches.
 
I've been happy with DME and steeping grains since 1994. I knew a long time ago that I would never go all-grain.

If you have a winning technique and the results are good don't mess with it. ;)

I originally had no intention of ever going all grain. While I'm very happy with my results now, curiosity is getting the best of me. However, time will always be a constraint so if I ever get around to AG, I'm sure I will continue to do extract as well.
 
I have been working on perfecting my recipe for the Belgian Witbier style. This style is the only one I can think of you can't do well with extract, because it uses ~50% unmalted wheat for the fermentables which requires a suitable amount of malt to convert. For everything else you can make great beer with extract, it will just cost a little bit more.

If you count all the money I have spent on my AG equipment, it would take a few hundred batches to make up for the difference in cost between extract and all-grain. ;) I switched to doing mostly AG because I like the process. When I don't have the time or means, partial mashes still make great beer, too.

EDIT: and the next time I do a Barleywine you can bet I'll use some extract. 13 hour brew days are a little too long for me!
 
. . . you'll find professional brewers/cake makers always go from scratch . . .
Well, not really. Here’s a good read from BYO:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial][FONT=Verdana, Arial]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial][FONT=Verdana, Arial]What’s Better, Extract or All-grain Brewing? [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]I have only brewed extract recipes (usually with steeped grains) and I have read a number of reasons why all-grain is supposed to be better. Although most concede that extract brewing can yield a very good beer, all-grain is generally regarded as being superior because the brewer has more control over the fermentability of the wort. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Having said that, an extract brewer can still control fermentability by either adding sugar (or rice syrup, or corn syrup, etc.) to increase fermentability and lighten the finished beer’s body or adding malto-dextrin (or steeping grains such as crystal malt) to decrease fermentability and lead to a more full-bodied, flavorful beer. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]My question is two-fold: one, are such fermentability adjustments by an extract brewer equivalent to those of an all-grain brewer (which is achieved through the temperature and time at which base malt is mashed), or is there a difference in flavor or some other important characteristic? And two, are there other advantages to all-grain vs. extract brewing (even with grains)? It seems like each side of the divide vigorously defends its position, but are there objective reasons why all-grain is superior? I’m curious if I could be brewing better beer! [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Russ Riley [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]via email[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]This is a pretty heavy question because it hits to the foundation of homebrewing. The way I see it, homebrewing is about brewing your own beer. Mashing is certainly part of what almost every commercial brewer does, but [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial][FONT=Verdana, Arial][FONT=Verdana, Arial]there are a few commercial breweries that brew with extract. Some of these breweries have even won medals at the GABF[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial][FONT=Verdana, Arial]. So in a certain sense, one of the reasons to mash at home is to start with the same basic "raw" materials that commercial brewers use to brew beer. (Of course I put "raw" in quotes because malted grains are greatly altered compared to grains sold as seed or feed.) [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial][FONT=Verdana, Arial]Aside from the made from scratch argument, there are some key differences between extract and all-grain brews. You mention several ways that extract brewers can affect the fermentability of wort and these all involve adding something to the extract wort to achieve this goal. In all-grain brewing, a single ingredient, Pilsner malt for example, can be used to produce wort with good fermentability as the basis for a pale lager. The same thing is harder to do with extracts because most extracts are darkened during production. Adding corn or rice syrup to dilute the color and increase the fermentability is clearly not the same as using all-malt for this hypothetical pale lager. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]When it comes right down to it, much of the argument surrounding all-grain versus extract brewing comes down to snobbery. Just as home bakers who make delicious cakes and pies from scratch turn their noses up at Betty Crocker cake mixes, some all-grain brewers turn up their noses at extract brews. There is no argument strong enough to combat this type of bias. When it comes to brewing technique I select the method that is most likely to help me reach my brewing objective. That means if I want to brew a very light colored, all-malt Pilsner with a nice grainy dryness, my first thought for brewing method would be all-grain. On the other hand, if I wanted to brew a big chewy stout using a combination of crystal and roasted specialty grains, I would consider both methods to be viable. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]A friend once related an encounter with a beer snob that I have never forgotten. One day while working in a brewpub in the San Francisco Bay, a German brewer came in. They had a bock beer on tap and the German brewer was very complimentary of the beer. However, once they began discussing the details of the brewery the German realized that the brewhouse was an infusion set up. His opinion of the bock was instantly changed because he declared that bock beers could not be made with infusion mashing. In his opinion, a bock beer had to be brewed using decoction or step mashing, and of course his preference was for the decoction method. My friend attempted to argue with this guy and used the German brewer’s compliments of his beer as fuel for the argument, but as you can guess the debate ended with no meeting of the minds. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Snobs hang their hats on methods and tradition and cannot accept that there is often more than one solution to a problem. I personally do not waste my time arguing with people like that. The most important part of brewing is the finished product — not how you got there. Some beer styles are difficult to replicate using malt extract, while many others — most English ales, for example — can be brewed successfully using either method. If you focus on the merits of the beer in the glass, choose the most appropriate methods to meet your objective and fine tune your own brewing method, I believe you will be happy with your decision, whether all-grain or extract! [/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
 
making beer has never been about saving money for me but buying DME is much more expensive than buying 2-row.

Bottom line AG has more control. Sure you can adjust extract worts attenuation, body, color, flavor with adjuncts but you can't adjust a single extract wort. With AG you can take 1 malt and manipulate the og, the fg, the body, the color, and the flavor of the wort. Factor in adjuncts and the possiblities and combos are nearly endless.
 
I'm with shortdrive. My first extract beers were good but not as good as commercial beers. Now that I've been making all grain beer for the last 6 months I can honestly say that my homebrew quality has improved immensely with some of them being better than my favorite micros. If you love brewing,Step up to all grain as soon as you can, you'll appreciate the difference.
 
what? no Revvy posts yet? Come on Revvy -- pimp your blog about AG v. extract --- then again, since you haven't posted yet on this thread, I'll do it for you...

check out Revvy's blog on AG and extract...

and to reiterate what other's have said - it's all about making good beer! :mug:
 
I started AG and kegging at the same time and it will be a long time before I break even. My first few AG beers rocked and I thought nothing could be better, but after a few substandard brews I've realized that it is possible to make poor AG beers.

In my case, I think my biggest problem is controlling fermentation temperature which is crucial to either type. But again, I thought it was impossible for me to make poor AG beers and I proved myself wrong.

If you enjoy your process and the end result it really doesn't matter how you make your beer.
 

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