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Thanks guys! I just want to make sure that I am not getting some huge low end or something. The company is fairly new about 1 year old. With this job I would be working with a handful of senior levels and actually diving into code and working on new stuff. Languages are Asp.net, c#, SQL, and some others. They mentioned they have something in place to pay for my masters as well ( I told them when I was being interviewed I wanted to go for it).

I just talked to a head hunter in Akron about something else but brought up the languages you mention because that is what my son does. Those are all HOT right now. Problem is everyone wants someone with experience. Stick your foot in the damned door while you can, especially if they will help with grad school. You only need a year before you have some experience under your belt and then another $20K or so per year is more realistic AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME anyhow. Good luck you you.
 
I have gone over that math a couple of times and I know I can scrape by if needed. But I would like to see how these other interviews pan out first. Since the other interviews are saying the job would be between 47-50k a year I want more time. Its really bugging me how they are trying to force an answer out of me within a day of making the offer.
 
Sounds like you may have arrived at an answer on your own. Seems reasonable. I wouldn't necessarily want to work for a company that's being pushy before I'm even an employee.
 
I have gone over that math a couple of times and I know I can scrape by if needed. But I would like to see how these other interviews pan out first. Since the other interviews are saying the job would be between 47-50k a year I want more time. Its really bugging me how they are trying to force an answer out of me within a day of making the offer.

Tell them yes. It doesn't start till Jan 1 anyhow. This is life. If you quite before you start, that is there problem. :D
 
Yeah thats my feeling now. I want more time I think giving me 24 to answer this question is just wrong. And I had to fight on the phone for that 24 hours. Yes this position is great experience but the money is very low. I have crunched the numbers with living away from home a couple of times (Yuri its a bit less than your estimates, GF owns a house and asked me to move in and split costs). Just these forceful tactics are not something that I like. I want to see what the other interviews have to offer because they are moving very fast as well. Also my Supervisor at Siemens is handing my resume to all the places I applied to directly for me so I can cut through the HR bull. I know I have other options, but I want the options not someone saying take it or leave it right now!
 
Who the hell can't live on 41K a year. Especially if you are single and not supporting a family? When I got out of college my starting salary was $42,000 a year and I had more money then I knew what to do with at the time.

Granted inflation and all that have occurred but you can't tell me 41 grand is barely enough to live on.
 
Come on, that's nearly the median household income. Obviously some people have figured out how to live on it.

Okay no need to make him feel bad about demanding a higher salary. People who live off this income typically live in lower cost of living areas. More importantly they don't have the student loans engineers have. Just a bet. Personally, I can't take a job under 65k no matter where I live. If its going to be a major city that number is about 7-10k+ higher. I'm not being obnoxious but my minimum loan payments are $700 a month. I get disgusted at the people who say take any job you can because its better then nothing. Because really, if its not sustainable or leading to something better then it isn't better. You're just digging yourself in a deeper hole.

Definitely wait it out. My opinion on companies that push that hard is the same as what your friends are telling you. They are lowballing you and trying to play on your insecurity of the job market. By pushing immediately after graduation they are hoping that your name isn't out there yet and you have no concrete options. Also, any company that says there's no room for negotiation is probably lying. Most initial salary offers are at least 3-5k lower then what they think your market value is because they intend to negotiate.
 
Thanks, and I am not saying that I can not live on 41k. I've done the math and I know I can. But everyone around me and in my field that I know has told me I can get close to 50k if not over.
 
I started higher than that about 10 years ago, but the market today is pretty different. It is an OK starting salary, and if you don't have anything else you should definitely consider taking it.

It also makes a difference where this job is. If you are talking about somewhere in a major metro area like DC, NYC, or LA I think 41k for that job is a bit rough due to cost of living. If we're talking around State College then it's fine.

EDIT:
The most important thing you can do to improve the situation is to continue updating your resume as you work, even if you never change companies. Keep track of any publications, conferences, training, and major projects that you do and any skills that you gain on the job. Not just technical skills so much as other stuff like communication, leading projects (even small ones), and working with customers.
 
The position is just outside philly. No matter what I am considering but I want to see where these other two interviews will lead as well. I just want more time than 24 hours
 
hey blackdragon...just out of curiousity, are any of the companies you are referencing in the Exton area and creating software in support of the life insurance industry? Seems like an oddly specific question I know, but if any of the companies you are considering match up with the criteria I mentioned, pm me, I may have some insight for you.
 
Pava none are in Exton. Malvern, KOP, and Blue Bell are the locations of all the ones I know of. But if you know of one in Exton let me know :D its close by
 
Ok this really doesn't relate to brewing, well I guess it could if you think I can't brew unless I get a paycheck. I just graduated last Friday from Penn State with a degree in software engineering with a 3.3 GPA. I plan on going for my masters as soon as I get a full time job. No reason to add more debt without an income.

My problem is I received an offer for 41k a year, benefits, and 2 weeks vaca. I'm new to the market so I don't know if this is standard but it seems low from what I have read online. The company is fairly new, but a software company where I would gain A LOT of experience. I tried to talk some more out of them but they would not budge. They also want an answer by today after they made the offer only yesterday. They said they want me to start the first week of Jan so that is the reason for the rush. I just want to make sure I am not being taken advantage of because I am new.

What do you guys think?
(Once again I know its not about brewing, but I've come to trust people on this forum and respect the knowledge they have. That is the reason for putting it on here)

I know a few people that have graduated with software engineering/computer science/and other IT degrees in the last two years (including myself), and the going range seems to be 39-45k for right out of school.

I'd take the job for income, stability, resume building and then worry about finding a dream job/killer offer/etc, but that's just me.
 
It will all boil down to the cost of living there and other costs you have. How much is rent/mortgage going to be? How much are your student loans if you have any? Do you plan on getting a new vehicle (new or used) that you will have to get a loan on?

I went through the same decision (also a software engineer/code monkey) almost exactly 3 years ago (finals week of my last semester) but wasn't pressured to make a decision in 24 hours. I ran the numbers for the local economy and the mid 40s was very decent for the area. I ended up taking the job even though it was the lower end of the spectrum for our profession. I had looked at jobs in big markets and the entry level jobs there had next to no benefits, would put me a good bit of distance away from family (visiting family a few times of year can add to your yearly expenses if you are far away), and their entry salary wasn't as high a % over the average household income. I'm more than happy with my decision now knowing I can retire in 20 years, I have great benefits, and once the fiance and I finally tie the knot next year we can live very comfortably in our area.
 
It will all boil down to the cost of living there and other costs you have. How much is rent/mortgage going to be? How much are your student loans if you have any? Do you plan on getting a new vehicle (new or used) that you will have to get a loan on?

I went through the same decision (also a software engineer/code monkey) almost exactly 3 years ago (finals week of my last semester) but wasn't pressured to make a decision in 24 hours. I ran the numbers for the local economy and the mid 40s was very decent for the area. I ended up taking the job even though it was the lower end of the spectrum for our profession. I had looked at jobs in big markets and the entry level jobs there had next to no benefits, would put me a good bit of distance away from family (visiting family a few times of year can add to your yearly expenses if you are far away), and their entry salary wasn't as high a % over the average household income. I'm more than happy with my decision now knowing I can retire in 20 years, I have great benefits, and once the fiance and I finally tie the knot next year we can live very comfortably in our area.

How are you going to retire in 20 years?

Edit: if you don't mind my asking
 
dragon...unfortunately, I do not, I was merely interested because I know of a place you should stay away from in Exton (as I didn't want you first experience in software development to be a bad one).

I agree that you should push for some time to make your decision (as it seems like you may have a few options on the table.) However, aside from asking for a bit more time (which the company should afford you), I would not walk away from an offer. As many others here have stated, work there for a little while and gain some experience and then find a new position when you have time and while you are actually earning a paycheck.

Just to give you some insight, I took a job for less than what you are talking about back in 2k3 with a major software company (working as a QA Analyst). I worked there for 3 years, the first 2 years I got meager 3% raises and in my final year was able to work out a 10% raise. That year our office closed and as part of my layoff package my manager worked out another 15% raise to 'take with me' to show other employers what I was currently worth. I am on my third company since 2006, unfortunately the first one was heading toward layoffs so even though I liked the job I left before the inevitable happened, the second one (in Exton) even though it payed well had no idea how to develop software (and even worse really didn't want to learn), I am now settled in nicely at the third (have been there for 6 months and have no desire to even consider leaving). I have substantially increased my salary every time I have moved, I have gained experience with many different coding and scripting languages, with different software development methodologies, and I have learned a lot about how to play the corporate game and negotiate in large corporations and in tiny startups. My point is that your starting point really has no bearing on where you end up, it is merely that...a starting point. Be careful of how often and how quickly you jump from job to job, but at the same time, do not be afraid to accept a position, gain experience and then force their hand when it comes time to talk about a salary increase. As a wise friend in my first corporate gig once told me .... when it comes to management there is what they SAY they can do and then there is what they CAN do. Management can always do more than they say they can, there is always more time, more money, and generally even more benefits they can give you. If this place says they can't do any more, you may still want to take the job, but guaranteed if you prove valuable to them and come to them in 6 months with an offer from another company, they will match or beat it.

Good luck with your decision and remember it is just that, your decision. There is no right or wrong here, it is simply a life experience and regardless of what you decide each path will be exciting and different and good if you keep a positive attitude and good friends, good family, and good beer in your life. Cheers and keep us posted on how it goes!!
 
Pava thank you for all the insight. I am going to ask for more time but also mention how one other company is on the second interview process but offering 47/48k. I told them yesterday if it were mid 40's I would take it but they would not budge. Because of that I still want more time. I do not want to take this off my plate though. After my interview with them they seemed like a good company and good experience. I was very excited and hoping I would get the job but that money is substantially less than what I expected, and I have other jobs (that I am still going through the interview process with) offering me close if not 50k a year. I would take this job in a heart beat if they raised the $$ to mid 40's, because yes it is great experience but right now because of the pay I want to see what these other companies have to offer.
 
$41k > $0k

In this economy, you're lucky to have an offer right out of school. The company probably has a few other candidates ready to take the job if you don't want it.There are plenty of recent graduates without work who are also looking for jobs creating a large pool of potential employees. This makes the employers very selective to who they make offers. Might as well take it if you have no other job offers and see what happens. You can always find something different later on if you find that you don't like it. The experience is invaluable, especially when just starting out in your career. Make sure you read the fine print about tuition reimbursement and/or relocation packages.
 
Definitely find out more about the program for paying for education. Different places do different things with that, where I am I believe you can only get reimbursed up to 2K per year, so you front the money and are paid back after you get your grades and only for C or better grades. If you spend more than 2K in a single year, you will get it back eventually given that you stay there long enough.

I would say do not turn down any job right now. Sure the pay may be a bit low, but experience is a huge thing. You can continue to look for other jobs with higher pay and be free to play hardball when negotiating salary as you already have a job.

Ask for a written offer letter (or email) that includes details on the tuition reimbursement - if it isn't a written policy that is part of their benefits package then getting something in writing on your offer letter is key.

Other things to ask about are how often are raises given - is is a fixed period? annually, 18 months, whenever they feel like it? What is the average raise? 1% 3%? 5%? Are there any bonuses, are they tied to individual performance or company profitability?
 
How are you going to retire in 20 years?

Edit: if you don't mind my asking

Govt job and I got in right before they changed the retirement laws. I however would be a complete idiot if I tried to live off just whatever I was making on base retirement and I plan on either staying here or going back to school so I can start teaching (if I'm not already teaching by that time). What would I do all day retired in my mid 40s if all my friends are still working???

Which brings up some other good questions I haven't seen mentioned, or I missed. Along with the 41k base salary, what other benefits do you get? Do you get free health insurance? How does your time off accumulate and roll over from year to year? How about sick time? How does overtime work, is it time-for-time, time and a half, compensation time? Can you change how your overtime gets charged paycheck to paycheck or are you locked into only one option?
 
Update:

I just called them back and said I'm sorry but I need more time. While I really do want this position and the experience they are talking about, I have two interviews this week that have already the job pays between 47-50k. They said they "sweeten the pot" for me but would not hit 50k. I said I understand that its a startup and the money is not there like that, but they are going to call me back with a new number later today and about the school tuition.

Khemikal: Not sure about the OT but benefits are $60-70 a month for a whole package
 
Outstanding...it still may not be the number that you want, but as I mentioned before there is a difference between what the SAY they can do and what they CAN do. I know you said you asked for more initially, but when you came back and told them about your additional opportunities, the reality of what they CAN do seems to have changed. 'Good on ya' for being bold enough to ask for more time and for doing it in a respectful way (enough that they were willing to reconsider rather than hang up on you).:mug:
 
Thanks, I worked for a company going through college that screwed me over every chance they could. When I started there I was a quiet guy who just did what he was told, and I would watch promotions go by, people placing blame on me, small raises, you name it. They felt that since I never said anything yet still worked they could keep it up. After a while I learned how to play their business game. Even though to this day I still hate that job with a passion (I have a pic at my desk of the restaurant saying "You could be working here") but they taught me to speak up for myself and stand up properly. Once again thank you everyone on here. All the advice and what to expect has been so informative. Like I stated at the start of this thread I really appreciate the people on this board and everyone always seems to be honest yet fair. Thank you all and I will keep things updated!! :D
 
While they want you to respond in the next few hours, who says you can't later down the road. Let them know you have the other job interviews currently and would like to get back to them after those happen. If either of those jobs toss an offer to you, go back to the first place and see if the idea of you going elsewhere is enough for them to bump up their offering.
 
What was the outcome of all this? What did the one company sweeten the pot to? Have you heard anything from those other companies that you were going to interview with?
 
I have interviewed with the other 2 and should hear something by late this week. They both are offering a little over 50k, with benefits and college. The original offer did what some expected from a start up. They bumped up the offer to 43k. Then the next day called and said sorry but they are having internal conflicts and still weren't sure if hiring now is their best solution since they haven't deployed their product yet. They said around January 17th they will probably want to hire then and I will be called without need of an interview if I'm still interested. So I have pretty much wiped them off the slate.

Also my internship is finally coming around (very large company and have to wait for HR to pass on my resume to the managers) and I got an email last Thursday from a manager saying he has a job for me and will set up a meeting after the new year. So this is the one I am hoping for but at least I have others, and still keep getting phone calls from new jobs asking for interviews. :D
 
Glad to hear you're finding some other options. As an engineer (like about half of the rest of HBT), I can tell you that your degree and GPA will get you your first job, but what you do in your first job will get you all your other jobs.

What I'm saying is that you need to consider opportunities to learn new stuff and grow with a company as well as salary. I took my first job at a low salary for my degree and GPA, but I learned a HUGE amount with a startup spinoff of a manufacturing company, and within three years was one of the principal engineers, making more than double my initial salary. Advancement options are worth a whole lot compared to salary for entry-level engineers, IMO.

Of course, software may be different from manufacturing in that respect. Not my specialty, so take my advice with a huge grain of salt.
 
Of course, software may be different from manufacturing in that respect. Not my specialty, so take my advice with a huge grain of salt.

I don't find it to be too different, in my experience. For me, I actually dropped out of college in my second year to get into the market. At the time (about thirteen/fourteen) years ago, getting a foot in the door was easy. Getting the experience under my belt from that job, and the ones that have followed, have always led me to better and better positions. At least where I am now, I have no desire to move on. Not like I have switched companies often, more as when they either shut their doors, were about to shut their doors, or just were not IS/IT-friendly.

I never went back to school, and do not regret it at all. After you get a certain amount of experience, the degree will not change anything. Sure, some companies do not want to interview without such-and-such a degree, but there are plenty that do. Having been in a position to directly hire subordinates over the last few years, I also have emphasized experience over education - which has worked out well.

To the OP, the one thing that I can share is that you need to find the best combination of a job that can sustain you, while also giving you the experience and confidence you need to advance. The first few jobs that you have in the industry will likely not be roles within the same company, rather that the companies will be steps leading up to better and better positions.

Best of luck! :rockin:
 
Glad to hear things are moving along.

As for the difference in software, we might do things a little differently than normal manufacturing. I've been "grading" coding tests we have sent out to our potential applicants for our current open position. This seems a common practice in the software industry right now. This has helped us weed out a ton of applicants who have pretty resumes but do not have the skills to get the job done. You would be surprised at the number of tests I've got from people who have just graduated but can't do very basic programming logic (if/then/else, proper loop control, etc).

If you're willing to move around and hunt for the best paying jobs you should be able to jump to a new job after 3-5 years at your first one. This will get you past the entry level positions and into a higher paying bracket.
 
This has helped us weed out a ton of applicants who have pretty resumes but do not have the skills to get the job done. You would be surprised at the number of tests I've got from people who have just graduated but can't do very basic programming logic (if/then/else, proper loop control, etc).

I've had a couple positions give me tests and I thought they were pretty easy but each place told me I did very well on them. So I can only come to the same come to the same conclusion. haha Glad to know I'm doing well :D

My plan is in a couple years (2 or 3) start looking to get into the next bracket, that should also be the time I finish my masters so things will work out well after all of that :rockin: I hope :/
 
The market must REALLY be turning around. I just got called out of the blue and offered $55k as a Jr. Web Developer.

I have 2 years experience and a bachelors Computer Science degree, fired from last job. After giving up on Monster.com for 4 months, I logged in for the first time in a long time. The next day a recruiter found my resume, called me out of the blue, and got me an offer for $55k (was only making $45k to $52k before I got fired).

Miracles happen.
 
I've had a couple positions give me tests and I thought they were pretty easy but each place told me I did very well on them. So I can only come to the same come to the same conclusion. haha Glad to know I'm doing well :D

My plan is in a couple years (2 or 3) start looking to get into the next bracket, that should also be the time I finish my masters so things will work out well after all of that :rockin: I hope :/

I too thought the test was easy. I did make a few mistakes that I was able to laugh about when I got a reply back. I forgot the return statement at the end of a function :rolleyes:. Apparently I did really well outside of that because I got an offer two days later and now the one doing the grading of the tests.
 
Well the one that tested me has called me back on a second interview. I think he went to too many management seminars in his life. All of his questions were "What can you bring to the company?", "What makes you different?". Every interview I have been on up until now has been very technical. He wanted straight short answers and would stop me when I would explain my work. He said he knows I am good at the technical aspect because I passed the test. Oh well we shall see on the next one.
 
Well the one that tested me has called me back on a second interview. I think he went to too many management seminars in his life. All of his questions were "What can you bring to the company?", "What makes you different?". Every interview I have been on up until now has been very technical. He wanted straight short answers and would stop me when I would explain my work. He said he knows I am good at the technical aspect because I passed the test. Oh well we shall see on the next one.

That is an encouraging sign, though. For a technical position, the technical interview is generally the first part of a few parts. With most places, you should expect to see a technical screening, technical interview (may be part of the screening), then the "culture fit" sort of questions. These are generally required by HR departments, but I have seen smaller companies with no formal HR do them as well.

These questions very purposely see how you might work with others, handle situations under pressure, etc. Commonly when you get to these types of questions, the technical part is mostly over.

Curious - has anyone given you an actual coding test in the interviews? Something like having to write pseudocode for a hypothetical situation, etc.
 
Oh yeah. Almost everyone has given me some type of test. This company emailed me a test, and I had to have that same email back in 1hour. For the most part I do well with them. I had one or two companies ask me stuff that seemed a little higher end for a college grad. One wanted a fully functioning program with calendar functions, etc, etc. For the most part they are pretty basic stuff though.
 
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