How much table sugar is too much? URGENT

I am brewing a Bavarian Hefeweizen later this afternoon, and Beersmith is only giving me 3.9% alcohol for the recipe I am using:

Specialty Grains:

.25 lb 20L Crystal
.5 lb Carapils malt

Grains:

4.5 lb dry wheat extract

Hops:

.5 oz. Perle (7.2%) @ 60min.
1oz Hersbrucker (3.8%) @ 20 min.

Yeast:

Wyeast 3056

I have made some changes to the recipe due to hop shortages and style parameters according to Beersmith. I will be using .45oz of Perle (8.0%) @ 60min. I am substituting Liberty for Hersbrucker and I am currently planning on using only .5oz of 4.1% Liberty @ 20min. I have a Weihenstephan 3068 smack pack ready to go in place of the 3056 called for by the recipe. I am also going to drop the irish moss recommended by the recipe, and I will keep this one in the primary the entire time (I don't want to clear up the beer). I will go ahead and ferment it at 68F.

The questions are:

Do my modifications seem reasonable to get a Bavarian-style Hef?

Will adding about .5 or .75 lb of table sugar impart bad flavors on the beer? The malt is only getting the beer to around 3.9% and I would really like to see it around 4.5% ABV.

Thanks in advance.

Rather than sugar bump up the Wheat DME.

Don't use table sugar...use corn sugar if you must. It is recommended that you not exceed 1# of corn sugar for a regular 5 gallon batch.

Revvy said:

Rather than sugar bump up the Wheat DME.

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Quoted because table sugar will make your beer taste like a$$. Use more base extract if you want higher ABV. Corn sugar only if you have no access to more wheat malt extract.

I vote more wheat DME and pass on the table sugar....but not for the reasons above.

one thing the table sugar will do is add abv but it will not add the body & flavor that a comparable addition of DME will...that will be vastly noticeable in the end product. Your beer will not have the palate and flavor that you expect.

sugar doesn't instantly equal cidery off flavors...that's a result of too much sugar in a recipe and can be caused by corn sugar too.

Hefeweizen = zero table sugar, or the great enforcers of German beer purity will come and whomp your ass. If your weizen recipe isn't alcoholic enough for you, brew a weizenbock or something that's supposed to be bigger, don't just throw a bunch of table sugar in there.

Don't use table sugar in your beer. Pick up some DME, some more LME, or some dextrose.

My hefe had 6 or 7 lbs wheat dme in it. That's your problem.

are all these folks saying "no table sugar" basing this on experience? (i.e. a bad beer that you yourself brewed, and could trace the off flavors to table sugar) or are you repeating what you've heard?

jamil z uses 3 lbs(!) of table sugar in his belgian golden ale recipe, and i've heard him advocate its use in other recipes.

that being said, i generally don't advocate dumping extra sugar (or any other ingredient) into a tried and true recipe just to achieve a desired result like higher abv. a 3.9% hefe can get you just as drunk as a barleywine (if that's the goal), you just have to drink more. but if it tastes great, then that's no chore.

john from dc said:

are all these folks saying "no table sugar" basing this on experience? (i.e. a bad beer that you yourself brewed, and could trace the off flavors to table sugar) or are you repeating what you've heard?

jamil z uses 3 lbs(!) of table sugar in his belgian golden ale recipe, and i've heard him advocate its use in other recipes.

that being said, i generally don't advocate dumping extra sugar (or any other ingredient) into a tried and true recipe just to achieve a desired result like higher abv. a 3.9% hefe can get you just as drunk as a barleywine (if that's the goal), you just have to drink more. but if it tastes great, then that's no chore.

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Read what I posted....with a beer like JZ's golden ale, you want exactly the effect I mention (adding more malt to get to the same abv would give you too much body/unfermentables, too high an FG).

It's one thing to use table sugar in a big beer that wants to finish dry. I'm the first to advocate simple sugars in monster beers.

It's wholly different to use table sugar in place of DME/LME in a smallish beer. It's not to style, it risks introducing off flavors, it's going to mess up the body of the beer. It's inappropriate for a hefe.

john from dc said:

are all these folks saying "no table sugar" basing this on experience? (i.e. a bad beer that you yourself brewed, and could trace the off flavors to table sugar) or are you repeating what you've heard?

jamil z uses 3 lbs(!) of table sugar in his belgian golden ale recipe, and i've heard him advocate its use in other recipes.

that being said, i generally don't advocate dumping extra sugar (or any other ingredient) into a tried and true recipe just to achieve a desired result like higher abv. a 3.9% hefe can get you just as drunk as a barleywine (if that's the goal), you just have to drink more. but if it tastes great, then that's no chore.

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Oh, I've used sugar in a big Belgian, and would do so in any "big" beer where it had a need. It really does thin and dry out a big beer, so it's definitely useful. In a <4% ABV beer, though? I wouldn't even attempt it. I've had one beer in the very beginning of my brewing (an unhopped LME kit) that used dextrose to boost the ABV. I drank about 1/2 of one, and dumped the rest of the batch. It was dry, cidery, and thin. It wasn't table sugar- it was corn sugar. Still, I can extrapolate that the table sugar wouldn't be better.

YooperBrew said:

I've had one beer in the very beginning of my brewing (an unhopped LME kit) that used dextrose to boost the ABV. I drank about 1/2 of one, and dumped the rest of the batch. It was dry, cidery, and thin. It wasn't table sugar- it was corn sugar. Still, I can extrapolate that the table sugar wouldn't be better.

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Which is why everyone thinks sugar = cidery flavors at any &#37; of a recipe and avoids it like the devil.

In many recipes, it has it's place...this recipe in question, I agree, it doesn't. You don't want the lack of flavor and body from a sugar addition in this type of beer.

jamil z uses 3 lbs(!) of table sugar in his belgian golden ale recipe, and i've heard him advocate its use in other recipes.

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You’re talking about a Belgian beer that’s intended to be dry and a Hefe that needs body, your comparing apples and oranges. I hear too many people saying Jamil says this or that but he never said put table sugar in a Hefe. So are you repeating what you hear or have you put sugar in a Hefe.

+1000. Bump up the DME. I had 7 lbs. in my hefe.

Wow. The majority has ruled. This recipe is based on the one in BYO for the Forest Falls Hefeweizen, and it is supposed to be a pretty good beer. I guess I will not add any sugar to this one. 3.9% isn't bad for a summer beer. The 5.5 gallon pre-boil volume where I live (dry as Hell) should boil down to a little less than 5 anyways, so if I don't top off all the way then I should end up with a higher OG anyways.

I really can't add DME. I wanted to brew today (work is really keeping me from brewing lately, so I have to use what I have) and plus I have already invited the friends over ;-) Not to mention that I have already smacked the yeast, and it would be a shame to waste good yeast! SO, I will probably just brew the recipe as is with my adjustments for bitterness... Here is the recipe in case anyone wants to check it out.

http://byo.com/feature/401.html

I just had my fridge delivered and wired my Ranco controller last night, so I am ready to go :-D (had to give away a few homebrews to get that fridge though!)

Anyhow, given that I will not add any table sugar, any comments on my recipe changes?

Here's to hoping I exceed my expected gravity!!! (BYO and Beersmith disagree on what the OG will be. BYO says 1.045 and Beersmith says 1.040)

thanks for the responses all.

as i said in my first post, neither i (nor jamil, nor anyone who's responded to this thread) has said the op should put table sugar in his or her low gravity hefe. it doesn't belong in there and the result would probably not be as balanced or enjoyable of a beer as if it was left out.

i was reacting to the comment that i've heard (in this thread, in books, and from other brewers) that "you should never use table sugar in your beer." i know when i started brewing i was told the standard line "using it will make your beer taste cidery" without any qualifiers. so i never used it. when in reality, i probably should have been told "using it in low to medium gravity beers in place of malt will make your beer taste cidery, but it has its place in high gravity beers." that's all i was getting it.

if i made it sound like a personal attack on people's opinions, i'm sorry i didn't mean it as such. i respect and appreciate all the experienced opinions i get on here, and when i do repeat what i've heard (from jamil or anyone else) i try to say where i'm getting it from. i certainly don't mean to quote anyone as if their word is absolute truth.

in my humble opinion, the line should be "you should never use table sugar in that beer" which, from the responses, seems to be more or less the consensus.

apologies again for not explaining what i was really getting at, and being quick with the "submit" button.

If you want more ABV. use more DME. Or if you would like to go the cheaper route use corn sugar (dextrose) it is really cheap and adds a lot of fermentable sugar and no flavor.

Well, we brewed it. The OG came out a bit low at 1.041, but for the most part we were pretty close. The yeast expanded the smack pack within a matter of a few hours right after coming out of the fridge, so I will take that as a good sign that they are healthy and willing to ferment to the lowest gravity possible! :cross: We will see how they do.

Thank you guys for all of the help!