Hoegaarden and such

This post is sort of directed at Dude - you mentioned in another thread how along with the SNPA clones a lot of homebrewers brewed Hoegaarden styles as well.

My question is I'm looking to brew a wheat beer but I guess a more American style without the sourness or acidic overtones. My main reason is that any sourness in the beer will remind me of a bad batch I made recently. The sour taste in that bad batch is like burned into my brain!

So I was wondering since I unfortunately never tried a Hoegaarden how one would describe it and if that particular style would be good to clone if I was looking for the non-sourish taste. I'm currently an extract brewer.

Thanks

If I may add my $.02...You are in the same position as a lot of other newer brewers when it comes to new beer styles.

I would HIGHLY recommend that you do find some Hoegaardens and sample them before trying to clone them.

IMHO, you are being unfair to yourself. If you don't know what something is supposed to taste like it would be hard to duplicate it.

I find it akin to you listening to a song on the radio then picking up an instrument you have never played before and trying to play it. It's damn near impossible and unrealistic.

Thanks for listening.

homebrewer_99 said:

I find it akin to you listening to a song on the radio then picking up an instrument you have never played before and trying to play it. It's damn near impossible and unrealistic.

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Wouldn't it be more like picking up an instrument that you DO know how to play (your brewing gear), but trying to play (brew) a song (beer) you've never heard (had)?



-walker

Walker said:

Wouldn't it be more like picking up an instrument that you DO know how to play (your brewing gear), but trying to play (brew) a song (beer) you've never heard (had)?



-walker

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yeah. i'm sure that's what HB99 meant to say...

thanks for the reply homebrewer 99.

Based on your resonse I think I need to clarify the question.

Maybe I should be asking two questions instead of trying to tie them together.

Question 1- how would you describe the taste of Hoegaarden? is it sour, sweet, fruity, dry, etc.

Question 2- Do you think based on my comment that I was looking for a wheat beer that is not sour, is Hoegaarden a good brand to try to repeat? As I type this I am drinking a SN wheat and it is very nice. I have a Blue Moon Belgian white in the fridge and that is very nice too, I would say a bit fruitier than the SN.
But I want to know about the Hoe

I'm not specifically asking to replicate the Hoe, I just want to talk about it on the forum. ( and get a wheat recipe suggestion too!)

Sure, that's what I meant to say, but since I already play an instrument...I guess my train of thought must have gotten de-railed...thanks for getting my back...

Alembic said:

thanks for the reply homebrewer 99.

Based on your resonse I think I need to clarify the question.

Maybe I should be asking two questions instead of trying to tie them together.

Question 1- how would you describe the taste of Hoegaarden? is it sour, sweet, fruity, dry, etc.

Question 2- Do you think based on my comment that I was looking for a wheat beer that is not sour, is Hoegaarden a good brand to try to repeat? As I type this I am drinking a SN wheat and it is very nice. I have a Blue Moon Belgian white in the fridge and that is very nice too, I would say a bit fruitier than the SN. But I want to know about the Hoe

I'm not specifically asking to replicate the Hoe, I just want to talk about it on the forum. (and get a wheat recipe suggestion too!)

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OK, that's easier.

IMO, the Hoeg is sour because of the coriander and orange peel.

If you are looking for a sweet wheat then I would recommend a German-style Hefe Weizen. The trick to a good weizen is using the right yeast and maintaining a temp around 72F. I have many recipes for this (and 2 First Place ribbons for HW), but at the present my home PC went TU last weekend and a Dell rep is supposed to change out my 2 HDs on Friday. I am hoping he can save my recipes and pics since the last time my HDs were switched out (Sep 05). I'd be more than willing to share my recipes.

Send me an email: [email protected] or [email protected].

hmmmm....

I would have described german HW's as sour and hoegarden as slightly sweet and spicy.

interesting.

-walker

Okay, now I'm getting somewhere.

Once again, thank you for your response H -99. I will definately e-mail you.

I would like to ask another wheat question. How would you characterize the difference between an "American" wheat and something like the Hefe Weizen? I think I was under the mis-impression that Hefe's weren't sweet. As you mentioned H- 99 - does it mostly depend on the ferm. temp. and yeast strain? The world of wheats is a new radio station for me!

Walker said:

I would have described german HW's as sour and hoegarden as slightly sweet and spicy.

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German wheats are sweet, Belgian's are spicy, American's are sour, but only because gurly men keep putting a lemon in them.

I'm not good at describing beer flavors at all. What you might do is go to www.beeradvocate.com and read some of the reviews over there. I think you might have to create an account, but it's pretty painless. There's also www.ratebeer.com but I haven't used it much.

I wouldn't describe it as sour myself, but everyone's palates are different. As Bill says, there's no substitute for trying it yourself.

Walker said:

hmmmm....I would have described german HW's as sour and hoegarden as slightly sweet and spicy. interesting. -walker

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True, but the flavor can change according to what you've last eaten before drinking. (my observation). The spice is attributed to the hops, the sweet to the orange, but many recipes call for the use of bitter orange peel.

As for a sour HW, I find (for my tastes) that some HWs just have too much bittering hops added. I make mine on the sweet side of the balance. Plus fermenting them at 70-72F brings out the banana flavor. There are other yeasts that will produce a more sour flavor like cherry pits.

I use WLP #351 (hard to find most of the year).

El Pistolero said:

German wheats are sweet, Belgian's are spicy, American's are sour, but only because gurly men keep putting a lemon in them.

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DOH!!!...no lemons, please!

Alembic said:

I would like to ask another wheat question. How would you characterize the difference between an "American" wheat and something like the Hefe Weizen? I think I was under the mis-impression that Hefe's weren't sweet. As you mentioned H- 99 - does it mostly depend on the ferm. temp. and yeast strain? The world of wheats is a new radio station for me!

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I can't adequately describe what a German hefeweizen tastes like, but it is primarily due to the yeast and the fact that the beer is very lightly hopped. Some are clovey, some are banana-y (sp?)/estery, some a balance, but they have a very distinct taste.

American wheats, while light and refreshing at times, have slightly more hop character to them, and less wheat character. Some American wheats use a hefeweizen-type yeast, while some just use 1056 for a very clean taste.

To be honest, I hardly associate them in my mind, though they do have some commonalities.

BeeGee said:

I can't adequately describe what a German hefeweizen tastes like, but it is primarily due to the yeast and the fact that the beer is very lightly hopped. Some are clovey, some are banana-y (sp?)/estery, some a balance, but they have a very distinct taste.

American wheats, while light and refreshing at times, have slightly more hop character to them, and less wheat character. Some American wheats use a hefeweizen-type yeast, while some just use 1056 for a very clean taste.

To be honest, I hardly associate them in my mind, though they do have some commonalities.

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You're doing good.

But, just off the top of my head, isn't a 1056 just an American Ale? Or was that lager?

You can easily do a hefe in extract and try to shape it more to your taste. Three specific things you can do are:

1. start with weizen lme, which is a barley malt, wheat malt blend, typically at 60/40 or 55/45. Wheat itself imparts a little more sourness than regualar malt, so you can offset that by adding a little more malt extract or some two row to give a more traditional beer malt/grain flavor (although not traditional to a hefe);

2. Add more hops, like Sierra's wheat; and/or

3. The yeast used will be the greatest X factor. Wyeast makes like 8 different wheat yeasts: American, German, Bavarian, Belgium, etc. Some are more tart than others, some ahve more esters and have fruit flavors like banana, some have sweet bubblegum flavors, and some are clovelike and spicy. This will shape your beer more than anything. I'd read the descriptions and pick the one that best suits the taste you are going for (which may be the American one).

By the way, since you are from VT, Harpoon UFO is a good example of a fairly un-sour hefe...

Good luck.

New brewers may WANT to brew something like Hoegaarden, but they really never do. Brewing an authentic Wit is one of the more difficult brewing challenges.

New brewers also like to put fruit, chilli peppers, coffee, chocolate and everything else in their beer because the styles they come up with off hte top of their head are better than the styles that are hundreds of years old. You should make what you like...if you've never even had a Wit, I certainly wouldn't start there

If you want to make a wheat beer that is crisp and clean, make an American wheat. If you want something with a more yeasty, banana/clove character, use an appropriate yeast strain but a very similar recipe to the American wheat.

Hoegaarden is a Belgian Wit and uses a lot of unmalted wheat. Most new brewers don't use unmalted wheat or even all grain, so they're really not making a Wit.

Cheers

homebrewer_99 said:

You're doing good.

But, just off the top of my head, isn't a 1056 just an American Ale? Or was that lager?

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1056 is American Ale...it's used in some American wheats such as Blue Star Wheat. They essentially have no 'hefe' character at all, but have a wheat grist. Refreshing on a hot summer day, but not a hefeweizen. I brewed a few American wheats but have now realized there are too many interesting German wheat permutations to investigate to be bothered with American wheats...I'll do APA's to be patriotic.

El Pistolero said:

German wheats are sweet, Belgian's are spicy, American's are sour, but only because gurly men keep putting a lemon in them.

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ZZZZactly! If a German HW comes off as being 'sour', there's something wrong with it!

Mikey said:

ZZZZactly! If a German HW comes off as being 'sour', there's something wrong with it!

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Are we then eliminating N. German wheat beers from the 'hefeweizen' classification? I actually don't know if, for instance, Berliner Weisse is considered a hefeweizen or just a weisse, or if I'm just making up words on my keyboard.

BeeGee said:

Are we then eliminating N. German wheat beers from the 'hefeweizen' classification? I actually don't know if, for instance, Berliner Weisse is considered a hefeweizen or just a weisse, or if I'm just making up words on my keyboard.

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Berliner Weisse and Bavarian Hefeweizen are two completely different beer styles.

If you ask any Bavarian, most also will tell you that Bavaria is a different country than Germany (bloody Prussians!)

Mikey said:

Berliner Weisse and Bavarian Hefeweizen are two completely different beer styles.

If you ask any Bavarian, most also will tell you that Bavaria is a different country than Germany (bloody Prussians!)

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Jawohl! Bayern ist Deutschland!

Hey all - first poster sayin hi. Ahh tasty wheats in the summer time - one of the reasons
I am delving into the homebrew hobby. I vacationed in Europe a few years ago and sampled some of the most amazing beer in Austria in July. I am sure being there with the sun shining down, and all added to the magic of it, but ever since I have been hooked on the idea of making my own. I have been doing a lot of research and this board and its members seem great - lots o info here. Look forward to talkin with you all. Carry on.

Alembic said:

So I was wondering since I unfortunately never tried a Hoegaarden how one would describe it and if that particular style would be good to clone if I was looking for the non-sourish taste. I'm currently an extract brewer.

Thanks

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Jumping in on an old thread: If you like the spiciness of orange peel and coriander in a wheat but think you won't like the tartness of an "authentic" Wit, try New Belgium's "Sunshine Wheat," which is (as near as I can tell) an American-style wheat fermented with 1056 or something like it, but spiced like a witbier with orange peel and coriander.

It's a pretty good lawnmower beer, IMHO--not terribly thought provoking but a good summer "quaff" and more interesting than a straight American wheat. I would think it'd be quite easy to brew something like it.

Janx said:

New brewers may WANT to brew something like Hoegaarden, but they really never do. Brewing an authentic Wit is one of the more difficult brewing challenges.

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True! I'm tried three Wits and haven't made a good one yet.

Hoegaarden is a Belgian Wit and uses a lot of unmalted wheat. Most new brewers don't use unmalted wheat or even all grain, so they're really not making a Wit.

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Hoegaarden also uses some pretty complex brewing methods, including a new, in-bottle fermentation. It's a very unique beer and one that I think will be pretty difficult to clone for even some of the most advanced brewers. I tried a recipe and it wasn't even close to Hoegaarden. Trying to brew Hoegaarden is like trying to make your own Louis XIII cognac. Save yourself a lot of heartache and trouble: buy Hoegaarden and try to clone Blue Moon.

Another way to save yourself heartache is to evaluate your beers, including "clones," on how good a beer you think they are, not how close they are to the model. I think I'd be almost disappointed (in some odd sort of way) if my beer came out tasting exactly like some commercial beer.

I have Clone Brews and I spend a fair amount of time studying those recipes, but mostly as a starting point for my own recipes. If you've had the beer that they're cloning, you can look at the recipe and have an image of what kind of finished product those ingresiants and techniques are going to produce.

Well, I just sampled my Bavarian Wheat I bottled about a week ago. I used 6 lbs of Wheat DME (60/40) and an ounce of fresh Northern brewer with Wyeast 3056 and a thirty minute boil.
The beer came out kind of hoegardenish. Not really one of my favorite beers really. Not bad but ....eh?

What would anyone describe the "hogardenish" flavor as?

I'll chime in with the fact that Hoegaarden is one of my favorite commercial beers. One, because I like the flavor or course, and Two, because I can't get it where I live. Absence makes the palette grow fonder, maybe?

cweston said:

Another way to save yourself heartache is to evaluate your beers, including "clones," on how good a beer you think they are, not how close they are to the model. I think I'd be almost disappointed (in some odd sort of way) if my beer came out tasting exactly like some commercial beer.

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I think when it comes to cloning, cweston hit the nail on the head. I like to judge my brewing skills more on how efficient and accurate I was in what I was trying to brew versus how close it is to a brand. That being said, I like Hoegaarden and brewed a wheat last year cause I wanted a good wheat. They idea for a wheat was 'based' on the fact that I like Hoegaarden, but I had no illusions to actually making a Hoegaarden.

Maybe this example will mean more...
My wife drinks Miller Lite. (I know, I'm thinking of starting a support group). But its just what she drinks for beer. She hasn't acquired a taste for other flavors, etc, whatever the reason. Doesnt matter.

I'm going to make a light bodier lager soon to have on tap at the house, with the express goal to make a beer my wife will like and drink. So, all jokes aside regarding Miller Lite, this beer I'm designing started with the notion that I need to produce a beer that appeals to her taste of a "Lite" beer. Now, I hope I can produce a light bodied lager, but I have no intentions of cloning Miller Lite.

I will judge my success on producing a lager that I can use as a convert beer for all the BMC visitors we have as well as the gateway beer for my wife to try other styles.

Sorry that got off topic a little but to me I really don't try to make a clone but rather be a successful brewer of the style or at least hit what I set out to hit.

These 'blast from the past' thread revivals are awesome. Like a look back to a simpler time. I hope they will be kept indefinitely, so 10+ year old threads will still pop up from time to time.

The below quote is awesome:

Cheesefood said:

Hoegaarden also uses some pretty complex brewing methods, including a new, in-bottle fermentation. It's a very unique beer and one that I think will be pretty difficult to clone for even some of the most advanced brewers. I tried a recipe and it wasn't even close to Hoegaarden. Trying to brew Hoegaarden is like trying to make your own Louis XIII cognac. Save yourself a lot of heartache and trouble: buy Hoegaarden and try to clone Blue Moon.

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Ah, for simpler days.