My First Sour Beer

So I'm going to be brewing my first sour beer. It's a Berliner Weisse. Here's the recipe I'll be using.

2.5 lbs German Pilsener
2.5 lbs German Wheat
0.75 Flaked Wheat


0.5 German Hallertau 30 min


Yeast: WL 630


Question. What mash temperature should I use? I understand lacto likes longer chain sugars, so maybe 153F-155F?
Also are there any other tips and / or suggestions for a first sour?

My main advice would be to use a variety of microbes if you want to get a good sour quality relatively quickly. It looks like you are using a sour blend which is good,but im guessing its just a single sacch strain with lacto or something. I would try adding some commercial sour dregs once you get it into the fermentor

mashign high is a good idea. My last 3 sours got below 1.000

I would skip the hops. Commercial lacto pitches are very hop sensitive and your beer will sour very slowly if it sours at all.

secondbase said:

I would skip the hops. Commercial lacto pitches are very hop sensitive and your beer will sour very slowly if it sours at all.

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I just realised I didn't include the amount of hops. 0.5 OZ of Hallertau for 30 min. I'm aiming for around 5 IBUs. It's my understanding that this style does have some hops. But you would leave them out entirely?

I think it depends on what you're going for. If you want just slightly tart, I would add hops to maybe 5 IBU. If you like really sour Berliners, skip the hops. You can dry hop later if you want.

For a Berliner, I would actually recommend mashing low. If you do just use WLP630 (German Weizen yeast + Lacto), the acidity might inhibit the sacch fermentation. I mashed my last Berliner at 150, pitched WL's Lacto Brevis first for 3 days, then pitched a Brett blend to finish. FG was 1.008 after 2 months.

5IBUs is fine. I think you cna get near 20 without too much issue. It just will slow the souring a bit

I don't use hops in my berliners, except to dry hop. Considering lacto favors higher temps and no hops, the sacch will outcompete it. I like berliners to be quick turnaround beers, but the addition of hops (even 5ibu) will definitely inhibit the lacto, making it a not-so-quick beer. If you're dead set on adding hops, I would recommend adding less than 3ibu but you really don't need any.

m00ps said:

I think you cna get near 20 without too much issue.

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False.

Maybe if the OP was using pedio, but I would not recommend this with a commercial Sacch/Lacto blend.

When we talk about fast and slow, what kind of timeframe are we talking? I'm expecting a drinkable beer in 3-6 months. Is that reasonable with the above recipe?

brian_g said:

When we talk about fast and slow, what kind of timeframe are we talking? I'm expecting a drinkable beer in 3-6 months. Is that reasonable with the above recipe?

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Definitely, probably less than that. Refer to my first post above - 2 months from brew day to bottling.

Your recipe is slightly different, but should finish sooner if anything, since you're only pitching lacto and sacch.

Im confused about the IBUs. Im pretty sure my last sours had more than 20

My last 2 sours had a hop schedule like this:
@60: 1 oz
@15: 1 oz
@0: 3 oz
no hopstand, started cooling at 0min

both were using hops over 10%aa

but they somehow were pretty sour at 1 month, very sour at 2 months. Maybe it was my sour blend Im using? I also made a large sour starter to add which went for 2 weeks before pitching if that matters. The starter wort was very sour and tasted better than most commercial sours ive had

the sour blend im using has a large amount of microbe diversity. Made from the dregs of at least 15 commercial beers from Crooked Stave, Prairie, Anchorage, and Jolly Pumpkin

m00ps said:

the sour blend im using has a large amount of microbe diversity. Made from the dregs of at least 15 commercial beers from Crooked Stave, Prairie, Anchorage, and Jolly Pumpkin

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This is why I don't think your IBU recommendation is valid based on the OP's recipe.

Some info on Lactobacillus and hop tolerance:
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus#Hop_Tolerance

Again, since we're just talking about using WLP630, I'd stick to lower IBU. Berliner's should not have a noticeable hop character anyway. Commercial breweries are required to add hops to call it beer, but homebrewers aren't. If adding hops increases the risks of ending up with a non-sour beer, why risk it?

If you only want a slightly tart beer, maybe add 2-5 IBU, but definitely not 20.

Since I'm pitching lacto and sach at the same time do I need to worry about having enough food for the lacto to work? Do I need to mash on the high side to make sure there is food for the lacto?

I just wanted some hops in my sour.....

Not to derail but:
But Im working on a sour with a brewery near me. Im mostly concerned with turning it around as fast as possible. I dont want to use kettle souring since I have no experience with it and would not risk a full scale commercial batch (since they have no experience with sours). Im telling them we need to keep hops to an absolute minimum. Maybe I just got lucky with the sour blend I randomly concocted?

Another question. Since lacto can tolerate low ph, should I switch my sanitizer from Starsan to something that isn't an acid sanitizer?

Another vote here for little or no hops. If you want just a hint of sourness then go with your half ounce, but if you want more than consider just a few pellets to maybe 1-2 IBU tops. Disclosure: I have no experience with that blend, but have made a couple of berliners with a few different sources of lacto and all have been very hop intolerant.

brian_g said:

Since I'm pitching lacto and sach at the same time do I need to worry about having enough food for the lacto to work? Do I need to mash on the high side to make sure there is food for the lacto?

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By pitching them at the same time, there is some risk that the sacch will out compete the lacto initially. Leaving the hops out gives the lacto its most favorable environment.

Have you already purchased the WL630 blend? If not, I'd recommend getting a separate lacto pitch (either WL672 or Omega's OYL-605). That way you can pitch the lacto first to give it a head start, then pitch the sacch separately. You can also keep the beer warmer at the beginning for the lacto, then cool prior to pitching sacch.

m00ps said:

I just wanted some hops in my sour.....

Not to derail but:
But Im working on a sour with a brewery near me. Im mostly concerned with turning it around as fast as possible. I dont want to use kettle souring since I have no experience with it and would not risk a full scale commercial batch (since they have no experience with sours). Im telling them we need to keep hops to an absolute minimum. Maybe I just got lucky with the sour blend I randomly concocted?

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There are definitely some hop tolerant lacto strains out there, and pedio is hop tolerant. Also some brett strains contribute some acidity as well. I'm sure you probably have all three in your blend. I have my own commercial/house sour blend that I've used to sour beers with upwards of 20 IBUs, but I just wouldn't pitch it into a Berliner.

What style are you planning for the commercial batch? And what microbes?

OK, final time I derail from the OP. Promise.

I made a thread asking for advice on it here. Would be interested to hear your thoughts:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=543576

m00ps said:

5IBUs is fine. I think you cna get near 20 without too much issue. It just will slow the souring a bit

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I do not agree. I've been bitten twice by the low IBU levels in my fast sour beers. NO hops is the correct amount, IMO.

Or, do your quick sour without any hops being used. Then boil after and add hops then.

brian_g said:

When we talk about fast and slow, what kind of timeframe are we talking? I'm expecting a drinkable beer in 3-6 months. Is that reasonable with the above recipe?

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But why would you want to take 3-6 months to brew this style of beer when you really can turn it around in about 2 weeks? My biggest concern with this blend would be the yeast out-competing the lacto (it is a pretty delicate microbe) before it can make much, if any, acidity.

What some of these folks are telling you is absolutely true - leave out the hops, pitch a pure lacto for a day or three, until you're at your desired sourness, and then pitch your yeast at sacch temps. If you pitch enough yeast, it will be done very quickly.

Lacto + yeast != mixed ferment beer. These are two different beasts and should be treated differently. And they produce quite different results.

I spent 6 months making my first Berliner, and it's not any better than my recent ones which I've been bottling in about 10 days. Good luck!

m00ps said:

Im confused about the IBUs. Im pretty sure my last sours had more than 20

My last 2 sours had a hop schedule like this:
@60: 1 oz
@15: 1 oz
@0: 3 oz
no hopstand, started cooling at 0min

both were using hops over 10%aa

but they somehow were pretty sour at 1 month, very sour at 2 months. Maybe it was my sour blend Im using? I also made a large sour starter to add which went for 2 weeks before pitching if that matters. The starter wort was very sour and tasted better than most commercial sours ive had

the sour blend im using has a large amount of microbe diversity. Made from the dregs of at least 15 commercial beers from Crooked Stave, Prairie, Anchorage, and Jolly Pumpkin

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yes, it has everything to do with your sour blend. the OP is using a White Lab mix which contains a wimpy lacto, and not a lot of it. you on the other hand have built up a large, healthy and diverse population of lactos. they two are not comparable.

Agate said:

But why would you want to take 3-6 months to brew this style of beer when you really can turn it around in about 2 weeks? My biggest concern with this blend would be the yeast out-competing the lacto (it is a pretty delicate microbe) before it can make much, if any, acidity.

What some of these folks are telling you is absolutely true - leave out the hops, pitch a pure lacto for a day or three, until you're at your desired sourness, and then pitch your yeast at sacch temps. If you pitch enough yeast, it will be done very quickly.

Lacto + yeast != mixed ferment beer. These are two different beasts and should be treated differently. And they produce quite different results.

I spent 6 months making my first Berliner, and it's not any better than my recent ones which I've been bottling in about 10 days. Good luck!

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My main concern is that I wont be able to produce the proper environment for fast souring. My understanding is that one must start with a low ph wort, keep a consistence warm temperature of about 120 F, and keep out oxygen. So I figure it wouldn't hurt to wait a several months, since it would be a nice summer beer and I could taste how it progresses over time and get a sense of my own preferences and how lacto works as it matures. Now, if there is a simple way to sour a beer that tastes good and doesn't require too controlled of an environment, I'm open to learning more. This is new to me, so fill me in.

The problem is that lacto doesn't really do much once primary fermentation is complete. To get long term souring in a beer, you need to use pediococcus, which develops over many many months.

The recommendations to reduce pH, maintain high temperatures, and purge all oxygen are only necessary if you're doing a sour mash or culturing lacto from grains, and they are needed to prevent spoilage organisms from growing. Starting with a pure lacto culture makes this unnecessary. You're no more likely to get an infected batch during souring than you are by pitching a yeast starter. If you can find a lacto plantarum culture (such as OYL-605) you can sour at room temperature. I like to pitch this at around 90F and let the temperature free fall to room temp, and typically have my desired sourness at 18-24 hours.

Agate said:

The problem is that lacto doesn't really do much once primary fermentation is complete. To get long term souring in a beer, you need to use pediococcus, which develops over many many months.

The recommendations to reduce pH, maintain high temperatures, and purge all oxygen are only necessary if you're doing a sour mash or culturing lacto from grains, and they are needed to prevent spoilage organisms from growing. Starting with a pure lacto culture makes this unnecessary. You're no more likely to get an infected batch during souring than you are by pitching a yeast starter. If you can find a lacto plantarum culture (such as OYL-605) you can sour at room temperature. I like to pitch this at around 90F and let the temperature free fall to room temp, and typically have my desired sourness at 18-24 hours.

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You don't get off flavors from the exposure to oxygen? I thought I heard that one of the microbe produced off flavors in the presence of oxygen. Maybe it was pedio.

Are you souring and then boiling or are you just pitching the yeast with live lacto?

brian_g said:

You don't get off flavors from the exposure to oxygen? I thought I heard that one of the microbe produced off flavors in the presence of oxygen. Maybe it was pedio.

Are you souring and then boiling or are you just pitching the yeast with live lacto?

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Just don't aerate the wort before pitching the lacto. No boil in between lacto and yeast pitches.

Personally, I have pitched lacto in my primary fermenter and airlocked it. Follow other steps as noted by @Agate

Nope, not at all. You can get some trace acetic acid from certain lacto strains in the presence of oxygen, but nothing to worry about. This is a big misconception from sour mashes - lacto is not harmed by oxygen, it's the other bacteria along for the ride in a sour mash.

You can get a lot of acetic acid from brettanomyces in the presence of oxygen, so after fermentation you want to limit exposure. But lacto, pedio, and brett will not create butyric acid or any of the other off flavors due to oxygen exposure.

For a Berliner weisse, I pitch lacto for a day, then pitch a large quantity of sacch or brett. That's it. But, it's also a simple beer, as it should be. I don't boil after the lacto unless I want some bittering hops. Less work that way!

To expand on BGBC's comment, this is why I like to pitch a lot of sacch - lack of oxygen in the wort. You need a lot of yeast because they won't reproduce well in the low oxygen, low pH wort. Don't oxygenate, but don't worry about it in the headspace either.

You guys are making the fast souring sound pretty attractive. Unfortunately, I've already ordered WL630 and it should be in on Friday. I had to special order it from my local home brew shop. I wont have time to get the WL pure lacto before brew day. I suppose I could use yogart for the lacto cultures. I've hear others having success with that.

Do you have a natural foods store near you? Good belly probiotic juice has lacto plantarum, you can add some a day before you pitch 630. My biggest concern would be the 630 not souring, but the sacch will be perfect for fermentation. But nothing wrong with rolling with it though!

If you can find a lacto source, it would probably work best to give it a 24 hour head start, and then use your wlp630 culture. Good luck!

Could also check grocery stores for Goodbelly probiotics or someplace like GNC for probiotics with Lacto plantarum. Both could be pitched in the same manner for the fast souring technique before pitching sacch (or before pitching your WL630 even, though you might want to make a starter with the 630 to bump up the sacch count).

Haven't used either personally, but seems pretty popular with folks on Milk the Funk.

Edit: dang, beat me to it.

Great minds think alike!

based on what everyone else has said, I still think it would be a good idea to get some more microbe diversity in there. Easiest way to do that IMO would be the probiotic stuff or just tossing in some of your favorite commercial dregs. I made my first 3 sours this way, using dregs alone