I need some scientific help (enzymes and temp control)

I have done this twice now-!and not sure if it effects conversion or not. Iodine test confirms conversion but efficiency is low.
Missed mash temp, so I draw off a portion (not all) of strike water from mash tun. I heat it to 200-210 and replace to bring temp up. Is this denaturing the enzymes I need for starch conversation? Any ideas?

I'm not completely sure, but yes I believe heating it to boiling temps stops the diastatic enzymes.

You mention effeminacy being off. Are you crushing your grains fine enough? You want a good crush, but not to powder. There's a happy medium.

The enzymes denature above about 170F. So, yes you denatured some of your enyzmes. If you want to do that next time you might dry taking only a little water and some of the grain. In the process of heating the portion of the grain/water up stop at about 158 for 15-20 minutes (This will help convert most of the sugars in that portion of grain you took out.) then heat it up to boiling. You'll probably want to stir the grain when it gets hotter to prevent scorching/sticking. Slowly add it back in after boiling it for a few minutes (so you don't overshoot the new mash temp).

TimTrone said:

You mention effeminacy being off. There's a happy medium.

Click to expand...

I got nothing to add to this.

afr0byte said:

The enzymes denature above about 170F. So, yes you denatured some of your enyzmes. If you want to do that next time you might dry taking only a little water and some of the grain. In the process of heating the portion of the grain/water up stop at about 158 for 15-20 minutes (This will help convert most of the sugars in that portion of grain you took out.) then heat it up to boiling. You'll probably want to stir the grain when it gets hotter to prevent scorching/sticking. Slowly add it back in after boiling it for a few minutes (so you don't overshoot the new mash temp).

Click to expand...

Basically doing a dedication mash at that point. I'd say just add boiling water a pint or so at a time until you get where you want to be. The mash being a little thinner won't hurt anything.

TromboneGuy said:

Basically doing a dedication mash at that point.

Click to expand...

Only if he's watching the pot boil (which the adage has it, it will never do). That's dedication for ya.

Are you using a calculator for your strike temp? I do and am having the reverse problem (BIAB), but am getting it closer.

iaefebs said:

I got nothing to add to this.

Click to expand...

Hahaha I didn't even catch that. I hate the damn auto correct spelling tool on phones. I can't tell you how many times it "fixed" my word to something inappropriate.

GinSlinger said:

Only if he's watching the pot boil (which the adage has it, it will never do). That's dedication for ya.

Are you using a calculator for your strike temp? I do and am having the reverse problem (BIAB), but am getting it closer.

Click to expand...

Bugger. Stupid text correction on my phone... I meant decoction. and it tried to correct it to devotion that time.

mux said:

I have done this twice now-!and not sure if it effects conversion or not. Iodine test confirms conversion but efficiency is low.
Missed mash temp, so I draw off a portion (not all) of strike water from mash tun. I heat it to 200-210 and replace to bring temp up. Is this denaturing the enzymes I need for starch conversation? Any ideas?

Click to expand...

Yes, you are denaturing the enzymes in the liquid you're drawing off. However, there are enough left to get the job done. You are not, as has been suggested doing a decotion. A decoction boils mostly grains leaving as much of the mash liquid behind in the tun as possible. That's one of the reasons a decoction increases efficiency as the boil helps break down particles in the grain and leaves the majority of the enzymes behind and untouched by the boil.

If you are consistently missing your mash temps then you should think about raising either the temperature or quantity of your strike water. You could also consider an additional infusion with a smaller amount of boiling water to bump up a low temp.

TromboneGuy said:

Bugger. Stupid text correction on my phone... I meant decoction. and it tried to correct it to devotion that time.

Click to expand...

I typed extract potential into a document a few weeks ago, and the spell checker decided I meant extramarital.
I never knew brewing could be so dangerous (if SWMBO read it).

-a.

I use beersmith- but it seems to be off. I switched to a keg for a mash tun. It was always accurate when I used a cooler.

mux said:

I use beersmith- but it seems to be off. I switched to a keg for a mash tun. It was always accurate when I used a cooler.

Click to expand...

Insulated plastic vs metal, you are having more heat loss. You need to adjust the program settings for the change in thermal mass.

mux said:

I have done this twice now-!and not sure if it effects conversion or not. Iodine test confirms conversion but efficiency is low.
Missed mash temp, so I draw off a portion (not all) of strike water from mash tun. I heat it to 200-210 and replace to bring temp up. Is this denaturing the enzymes I need for starch conversation? Any ideas?

Click to expand...

Apologies to the OP, this thread went off topic. If i understand your process, you mash, show starch conversion with Iodine, check your gravity, and it is low, you draw off some of the water (wort) and bring it up to just below boil temp, add it back to the mash.... you've done this twice. My question is did you see a difference in your efficiency? Denaturing enzymes is beyond me. I think of it as a PH + Temp thing but maybe someone has a better answer.

I set beersmith to my new equipment but it only seems accurate if I preheat the mash tun. I should have just used boiling water to increase the temp- but wanted to see what if any thing would be affected. I somewhat understand Decoction, and That is not what took place here. I will just add boiling water, and subtract it from the lautering.

BigEd said:

Yes, you are denaturing the enzymes in the liquid you're drawing off. However, there are enough left to get the job done. You are not, as has been suggested doing a decotion. A decoction boils mostly grains leaving as much of the mash liquid behind in the tun as possible. That's one of the reasons a decoction increases efficiency as the boil helps break down particles in the grain and leaves the majority of the enzymes behind and untouched by the boil.

If you are consistently missing your mash temps then you should think about raising either the temperature or quantity of your strike water. You could also consider an additional infusion with a smaller amount of boiling water to bump up a low temp.

Click to expand...

First of all you are dong a decoction mash. A decoction mash is defined as taking portion of the mash and boiling it. No matter the amount of the mash you take out it is still a decoction. The reason the decoction mash began was to account for having under modified malt. Boiling a part of the mash allowed for a breakdown of under modified particles.

To answer your question, yes you denatured any enzymes that were in the decoction that was boiled. Most barley malted in the united states contains high diastic enzymes though so denaturing some of them in a decoction mash won't effect starch conversion. Also doing what you did would be a good way to take your mash to a mash out temperature without having to add water. By doing this you wild be conducting a single decoction mash.

mux said:

I set beersmith to my new equipment but it only seems accurate if I preheat the mash tun. I should have just used boiling water to increase the temp-

Click to expand...

When I use Beersmith I have to set the grain and mash tun temperature to what is actual. In the winter my storage area is around 65° so I adjust from the default that Beersmith has (72°?) Then in the Summer my storage are can be as much as 76° and I adjust for that. I check the box that says adjust temp for equipment. (next to the mash selection) This will give you your strike water temp which will be maybe 15° or so above your mash temp.... Now here is where people deviate in heating the mash tun.... But what I do is I heat my strike water to 10-12° above what beersmith calls for and put that in my mash tun. I let it sit for 10 minutes and the temperature will drop to the beersmith(BS) recommended strike water temperature.

Example... I want to mash at 152° I have beersmith set to my grain temp/cooler temp of 65° BS say's to heat water to 167° (the grain will draw down the temp of the water) i heat my strike water 11° hotter than that to allow cooler absorption. I end up heating water to 178° to start.Pump it to the MT... let it sit for 10 minutes, the water temp drops to BS recommended 167°. I add my grain, stir and temp is 152°... (it is easier than what I make it sound like)