Yeast starter too early?

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winvarin

winvarin

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I plan on brewing a 1.063 stout this Saturday. After consulting mrmalty.com, I am going to make a 1200ml starter using the 10/1 ratio suggested in Brewing Classic Styles. I'm using WLP002 with a best by date of May. I'll be putting 2 vials of WLP002 in and using a stir plate.

I want to give the starter time to ferment out completely and then cold crash it before brew day. I am trying to decide whether to make the starter tonight (Tuesday) after work and cold crash as soon as ferment ends. Or (Wednesday) after work and hope that cold crashing no later than Friday night will be OK.

I have limited experience with large starters. So a couple of questions:

1. If I do it tonight and it's fermented out by, say Thursday, is 48 hours too long in the fridge before I brew with it? Or is it OK (I mean, it's stored cold, right?)

2. If I can't get the flask in for cold crashing until Friday night, and I plan to pitch late afternoon Saturday, will that give me enough time to have the yeast drop out of suspension so I can pour off some of the starter beer?
 
For one I dont think you need to pitch 2 vials in a 1.2L starter for a 1.06 beer....
I would use one. A stir plate double to triples the amound of yeast made. so you will be fine.

Also I wouldn't worry about cold crashing for an ale, just make it friday and pitch on Sat.

But if you realllly want to cold crash make it Wed. Crash Fri. night.
 
The less yeast pitched into a starter the more yeast you actually reproduce. pitching 200billion yeast into 1.2L wouldn't really grow much yeast at all.
 
In my relatively limited experience:

winvarin said:
1. If I do it tonight and it's fermented out by, say Thursday, is 48 hours too long in the fridge before I brew with it? Or is it OK (I mean, it's stored cold, right?)

Longer it sits, more likely to develop an infection. But if you have good sanitary practices there should be any problem. I would go this route so all the yeast is out and then let it warm up for 6 or 8 hours before decanting.
Click to expand...
 
First of all, a 1200mL starter isn't really that big, that is only 1.25 quarts, so I would only use one vial, and step it up to 2000mL.

I regularly make 4000mL starters with one vial, and 2 step-ups, and if I am making a 2000mL starter I definitely only use one vial.

1. If your starter is only 1200mL, your high kreausen will be ~24 hours after you pitch, so I would make the starter Wednesday, let it ferment for 24 hours, or until your kreausen falls (if you even get one), and chill for 48 hours, and unless you are pitching Saturday early am, you can probably make your starter in the evening on Wednesday if you wanted too.

FWIW, yeast can only occupy a certain amount of space within a volume (carrying capacity), and I would think that 2 vials in 1200mL probably isn't going to increase your cell count all that much, but someone with a better understanding of the science behind it will probably chime in and correct me.

2. With WLP002 you should be fine,, it is a super good flocculator, actually you may get a chunky looking starter because the yeast cells like to clump together.

If you don't have experience with WLP002, and end up with a chunky looking starter don't worry, just be sure to shake the crap out of it after you decant most of your starter wort off to break up the clumps. Don't fret if it looks weird, WLP002 is kind of a weird looking strain.

Good Luck!

Cheers!:mug:
 
Agreeing with breez. If you want to use both vials anyway, make a .5L starter Friday night and just pitch the whole thing into your wort. Don't bother with a stirplate. For a 1.063 OG beer you don't need much more than 200 billion cells, and you don't want to overpitch too much.

The only way you'd need a 1L stirplate starter with two vials is if you were making a 1.100+ OG beer or you were doing a high gravity lager.
 
Schnitzengiggle said:
First of all, a 1200mL starter isn't really that big, that is only 1.25 quarts, so I would only use one vial, and step it up to 2000mL.

I regularly make 4000mL starters with one vial, and 2 step-ups, and if I am making a 2000mL starter I definitely only use one vial.

1. If your starter is only 1200mL, your high kreausen will be ~24 hours after you pitch, so I would make the starter Wednesday, let it ferment for 24 hours, or until your kreausen falls (if you even get one), and chill for 48 hours, and unless you are pitching Saturday early am, you can probably make your starter in the evening on Wednesday if you wanted too.

FWIW, yeast can only occupy a certain amount of space within a volume (carrying capacity), and I would think that 2 vials in 1200mL probably isn't going to increase your cell count all that much, but someone with a better understanding of the science behind it will probably chime in and correct me.

2. With WLP002 you should be fine,, it is a super good flocculator, actually you may get a chunky looking starter because the yeast cells like to clump together.

If you don't have experience with WLP002, and end up with a chunky looking starter don't worry, just be sure to shake the crap out of it after you decant most of your starter wort off to break up the clumps. Don't fret if it looks weird, WLP002 is kind of a weird looking strain.

Good Luck!

Cheers!:mug:
Click to expand...

All of that seems to fly in the face of what it says on mrmalty.com

I plug in ale, 1.063, 6 gallons, and the manufacture date of the yeast and it tells me I need a 1 liter starter made with 2 smack packs. I even tell it that I am using a stir plate.

Am I doing something wrong?

Per white labs, it says that a vial should contain 75-150 bill cells. mrmalty.com says this beer needs 262 billion cells. Sounds like I could almost pitch both straight from the vial and have what I need.
 
I would also like to point out that the point of a starter isn't to `ferment out'. It is about oxygen and sex. The only goal is to build up yeast cells by having them eat up the oxygen and start splitting off more cells. So once that is done there is no reason to continue.

Say no to fermenting a starter.

-bn
 
winvarin said:
All of that seems to fly in the face of what it says on mrmalty.com

I plug in ale, 1.063, 6 gallons, and the manufacture date of the yeast and it tells me I need a 1 liter starter made with 2 smack packs. I even tell it that I am using a stir plate.

Am I doing something wrong?

Per white labs, it says that a vial should contain 75-150 bill cells. mrmalty.com says this beer needs 262 billion cells. Sounds like I could almost pitch both straight from the vial and have what I need.
Click to expand...

Pitching both vials instead of a starter will give you roughly 210billion cells. Not to far off from where you should be and would be acceptable in my brewhouse.


As far as `2 smack packs', I do not see that wording anywhere. I see that you would need 2.7 vials without a starter though.

-bn
 
262 billion cells from 200 billion on a stir plate won't really need 1L of starter in my experience. You can adjust the OG up to 1.083 before it starts saying you need more than 1L. 1L of starter on a stirplate with two packs will give you 74 billion more cells than the calculator says you need. It says with one pack you only need 1.4L of starter, so if you double your starting yeast you shouldn't still need a starter 65% that size.

(I know yeast growth isn't linear, but still. The calculator just isn't programmed to be able give you starter sizes less than 1L.)
 
winvarin said:
All of that seems to fly in the face of what it says on mrmalty.com

I plug in ale, 1.063, 6 gallons, and the manufacture date of the yeast and it tells me I need a 1 liter starter made with 2 smack packs. I even tell it that I am using a stir plate.

Am I doing something wrong?

Per white labs, it says that a vial should contain 75-150 bill cells. mrmalty.com says this beer needs 262 billion cells. Sounds like I could almost pitch both straight from the vial and have what I need.
Click to expand...

Is your best by date May 2010, or May 2011?

I thought the date printed on the label was a best before date, so I ask again is it may 2010, or May 2011?

Either way, I would still only use one vial and make a starter. If you have kept it refrigerated, even if it is from May 2010, you'll probably be fine, but that is why I would recommend a larger starter with a step-up.

If they are fresh, newv vials, save yourself the $7+, and use one vial in a starter of 1.5-2L. Save your other for later.

Better yet make a second starter with the other vial, and make it big, so you can save a portion of it for the next brew :)
 
Are you actually going to pitch the yeast in 6 gal of wort or is that the volume at the end of your boil? According to my estimation, you have about 90% viability for one vial and would need about 260 billion cells for this brew. A 1 L starter on a stir plate for a 6 gal batch would give you about 220 billion cells. A 1.4 L starter would give you 253 billion cells on a stir plate, which is close enough. Obviously, you definitely do not need 2 vials. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe mr malty often says you need 2 vials until you move the slider on the bottom to get higher starter volumes with lower yeast vials.
 
6 gal will be my post-boil volume. I usually collect about 5.5 from that once I transfer from the kettle and leave all the break material, etc. behind.

I can do a 1.4l starter without any trouble. I have a 3l flask. So making the starter tonight and cold crashing Friday after work should be OK, right? That would give about 48 hours for the starter to grow. Then 12-18 hours to drop the yeast out of the starter beer.
 
According to Mr Malty Pitching Rate Calculator:

Fermentation Type: Ale
OG: 1.063
Volume: 5.50 US Gallons
Production Date: 1/19/2011
Liquid Yeast
Stir Plate

You only need 1 vial of liquid yeast in a 1.13 liter starter. By my calculations you would combine 1128 grams of water with 113 grams of dry malt extract to obtain a 1.040 gravity. Boil for 10 minutes, add 0.13 grams of yeast nutrient, and then boil for another 5 minutes. Cool to 70 degrees and pitch the vial of liquid yeast. Set on a stir plate and leave it for 48 hours. After 48 hours, cold crash the yeast starter over night and then decant the liquid. Pitch the yeast started when the wort has reached your desired fermentation temperature.
 
Ok, so your yeast pitching rate should be based on 5.5 gal and not 6 gal. That means you would need 240 billion cells that you can obtain from a 1.2 L starter on a stir plate from one vial.

In your case, I would just pitch the entire starter in the batch. According to JZ, he recommends to not pitch a starter that is greater than 5% of the wort. According to my calculations, a 1.2 L starter is about 6% of 5.5 gal. So, you should be ok. You can probably prepare the starter tomorrow then just pitch the entire amount on Sat.
 
sjbeerman said:
Ok, so your yeast pitching rate should be based on 5.5 gal and not 6 gal. That means you would need 240 billion cells that you can obtain from a 1.2 L starter on a stir plate from one vial.

In your case, I would just pitch the entire starter in the batch. According to JZ, he recommends to not pitch a starter that is greater than 5% of the wort. According to my calculations, a 1.2 L starter is about 6% of 5.5 gal. So, you should be ok. You can probably prepare the starter tomorrow then just pitch the entire amount on Sat.
Click to expand...

+1, If you keep it at normal fermentation temps, you really should'nt have many off flavors develop, and 1.4 liters pitched into 19L isn't going to be noticeable, and your yeast will probably remove most of the off flavors that are present if you extend your primary to 3wks-1month.
 

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