After Only 4 Batches I have an Investor? WAH?

Being a noob brewer, I have a similar dilema. My boss likes my homebrew and wants to pay me for beer. I refuse to take money for the beer but I do brew any recipe kits that he may purchase. He wants 30 bottles from the batch and I keep the rest. To date it is working okay but I certainly don't want risk Federal Pound Me in the A$$ prison for homebrew.

Actually, ATF isn't my worst fear. I am afraid I'll brew a real crap batch and he'll fire me for the transgression. Let your friends kick in for ingredients or equipment but don't get caught up in selling the beer. That's my 2 cents.

Next year I'm going to teach my housemates to brew. One's already said he'll buy some equipment (extra barrels mainly to keep pace with the increased demand!) and I can see us having some laughs with it. I'm hoping six barrels will be enough...

I enjoy making guitars, and other instruments. A couple years ago (was fairly new to building), I took some money to buy supplies for a friend to make him a guitar. It kind of took the fun out of it because he was asking me every other day when it would be finished. When it was finished, he didn't like it (even thought he paid for the materials and not the time spent making it). Now I know to either make instruments as a hobby and not sell / take money until I start a business (if I ever do). Just my 2 cents.

Here's what I did. Some folks from work were throwing a party, we needed about 20gals.

Everyone wanted to chip in, so I put a pail out. I took $20 to offset *some* of the grain cost, and the other $160 went to a local charity.

Hell, I almost felt guilty about taking the $20. Almost.

Beernip said:

Just remember that it will only take one pissed off customer to notify the ATF. Doesn't matter if it was your friend or his ex-girlfriend who he just cheated on.

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DUDE!!!!!
If that ain't the Gospel Truth, I dont know what is. Especially the ex girlfriend part. BEWARE!

I stand mute on this issue otherwise, thus being covered by plausible deniability

Years ago I lived with 3 buddies in college and we had massive parties. I ran the bar, we had a sign up that read "FREE SHOT w/ $1 Donation". All the money went to funding the next party. We would usually have $300-$400 worth of liqueur on hand to chose from and at least 1 keg.
The cops very rarely would come by, usually on a noise complaint, I'd just tare the sign down asap.
No one had an issue paying something because the cost was low and people did not have a problem supporting the party. I would sometimes even get tips on top of that. When we were not having a party it was just a large open bar for friends.
I miss those days.

The parties were large and expensive, and not everyone there was a friend.
With home brewing so far I do not produce near enough to really be a huge dent in the wallet, or provide my friends with a small fraction of what they consume. I'll probably never have parties like that again, but I am looking forward to just hanging with friends and having a home brew.

I could see trying the idea of getting people to chip in on the ingredient. but I would not be comfortable exchanging cash from friends for a six pack.

There is an interesting ethical puzzle there, why before and not after? Probably because of fear from the law, o-well



I miss the foosball table most, it's all in storage

This sounds like a good way to attract the attention of TABC. Having them buy the ingredients then giving them the beer is probably a much safer way to go.

When I first started brewing I gave a six pack to anyone I knew who liked beer... but then I realized that 60% of my batches were going to friends and family. I considered asking for $5 from each of them to offset costs, but felt weird. Now I just bring some with me if I go over and it seems appropriate; works out well for everybody.

I wish I knew more people who liked beer. I have some friends that only drink the light stuff and only know a couple of people who homebrew. I would probably just ask for someone to buy their ingredients if they were interested in drinking more than a bit. That way you get to brew, and they get beer.

I don't think there is any way of going to a big system and staying legal. The fact is it would only take a few batches to break the limit. Plus you are obviously not "homebrewing" if someone were to take a peek at your system. Questions would be asked.

As long as you don't sell it, you're within the law.

"Can I buy a twelve pack?"
"No. You can donate XX dollars and you can have a twelve pack."

justinakajuice said:

As long as you don't sell it, you're within the law.

"Can I buy a twelve pack?"
"No. You can donate XX dollars and you can have a twelve pack."

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Hmmm... This would be comparable to paying for the company of a lady who just so happens to want to have sex with you? I'm not sure this would pass muster in a court of law. If so, we would not be able to charge prostitutes with anything.

Hmm... Prostitute Porter...

Not going to comment on the legality of selling homebrew as it has been covered ad naseum. However, I will comment on the ethical side of taking money from friends. My grandfather used to own a radio/television shop. He was asked many years ago about how he could charge a friend for working on their TV. His response was simple a one, "I have to charge my friends because my enemies won't do business with me". Pretty wise words in my opinion.

justinakajuice said:

As long as you don't sell it, you're within the law.

"Can I buy a twelve pack?"
"No. You can donate XX dollars and you can have a twelve pack."

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Call it what you want but you've just sold beer.

As long as you stayed small, and only sold to friends/people you know, I don't see how you'd get busted for this.
Even if they got wise to it, how would they prove anything? They send someone in undercover to buy beer, you say "I don't know you, you can't have any".

As far as taking money from friends, I guess it depends on how you do it. If you invite friends over then charge them for the beer they drink, then you're a ******. If you invite friends over, give them beer, then say "by the way, I'm selling this stuff at $30 a case if you like it" then that is different.

hayabusa said:

Your friends can buy your ingredients for you; so you brew for free and then you give them 1/2 of the beer. That's fair and legal.

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And fantastically not worth it. If you charged what you should charge based on time, ingredients, time, loss of product, time, you would have to charge about $200 / case.

Not to mention the batches that just turn out mediocre and your friends feel they didn't get their money's worth.

Maybe if you had a 1 BBL system it might be worth it. But then it would Federal AND big enough that they would notice and care.

I don't mind giving a six away now and then, in fact I very much enjoy it, but if this hobby became a responsibility then a lot of the fun would be gone. The last few weeks I have been very busy and have not wanted to brew. It would suck if I had felt obligated to do so.

Tell your friends to save money and go buy all of the stellar craft beer that is available at any beer store to fill in the gaps of when you feel like giving them some beer.

SeeGeeBee said:

... POUND ME IN THE ASS ...

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Denny's Evil Concoctions said:

... take your GF ...

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Must... resist... urge... make... smartass... comment...

Seriously though, making money off friends sounds like a ****** maneuver.

However having them pitch in for ingredients sounds like a great idea which I might even try myself once I get more experience. My current dilemma is that I want to try brewing many more styles and do lots of experimentation but I don't drink that much beer, and I don't have the money to be pouring into ingredients just to give the stuff away.

Also, keep in mind that regardless of your intentions, getting close to the gray areas of the law may not be such a great idea...

If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged.

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CnnmnSchnpps said:

Seriously though, making money off friends sounds like a ****** maneuver.

However having them pitch in for ingredients sounds like a great idea which I might even try myself once I get more experience.

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How would you get your friends to pitch in for ingredients without taking money from them?

bull8042 said:

Not going to comment on the legality of selling homebrew as it has been covered ad naseum. However, I will comment on the ethical side of taking money from friends. My grandfather used to own a radio/television shop. He was asked many years ago about how he could charge a friend for working on their TV. His response was simple a one, "I have to charge my friends because my enemies won't do business with me". Pretty wise words in my opinion.

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But he owned a shop. I have friends who are professional brewers and I will buy their products fairly often. WAY different than selling beer out of your garage.

taylornate said:

How would you get your friends to pitch in for ingredients without taking money from them?

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You take them to the store and have them buy stuff, or you buy it and they reimburse you for the ingredients. That's not making money off of your friends though. That's very different.

justinakajuice said:

As long as you don't sell it, you're within the law.

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While I doubt many of these ideas to brew the hell out of everything and fly inder the radar would ever take off. The fact is you can only brew a limited amount for personal use in mosts states. Now you are back to the thing someone posted earlier; It just takes one pissed off ******* or ex-girlfriend to **** it up for you.

Baldy_Beer_Brewery said:

While I doubt many of these ideas to brew the hell out of everything and fly inder the radar would ever take off. The fact is you can only brew a limited amount for personal use in mosts states. Now you are back to the thing someone posted earlier; It just takes one pissed off ******* or ex-girlfriend to **** it up for you.

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I was thinking the same thing. Every few days someone starts this exact same thread and I think that everyone in their romantic visions of homebrewing forget about the pita WORK involved in bottling and cleaning.

When the rubber hits the road there is just no way I am doing twice or three times as much cleaning and bottling just to get a couple bucks "donation" towards the expense of the batch. And wait til you're doing 2-3 batches a week. At some point you just have to take an accounting of the hours spent doing the drudgework. Not the fun "I just do it for the love of brewing" mashing and sparging and stuff, I am taking about the endless sanitation and rinsing and schlepping equipment and taking out and putting away stuff.

Clean and sanitize and fill 150 bottles per week for two or three weeks straight and comeback and tell me it is worth it to give half of your beer away for the cost of ingredients.

I would wager big money that the vast majority of people who start down the road of supplying friends for "donations" soon enter that large group of people who say "I used to brew my own but it just to be too big a pain the butt."

Oh yeah. I'm not saying that one can't dream and with enough work, one could some day open a brew pub, micro brewery or be the next Boston Brewing Company. But the little "donation" tricks and whatnot likely wouldn't keep some overzealous county cop from causing you a pain in the ass.

dontman said:

I was thinking the same thing. Every few days someone starts this exact same thread and I think that everyone in their romantic visions of homebrewing forget about the pita WORK involved in bottling and cleaning.

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That's exactly the way i look at it...which is why my general idea is to get the friends to come over and help a bit on brew day. Put them to work doing the things you don't need to do like sanitize, or bottle a batch. Have them bring over some brews and food to drink and eat while brewing. Let them enjoy some of the homebrews you have made in the past, and hook them up with a sixer of the stuff you brewed that day. They get beer, you get beer. They help and perhaps some day start brewing on their own, you get lunch and hang out with friends. Win-win in my opinion.

leapdog said:

That's exactly the way i look at it...which is why my general idea is to get the friends to come over and help a bit on brew day. Put them to work doing the things you don't need to do like sanitize, or bottle a batch. Have them bring over some brews and food to drink and eat while brewing. Let them enjoy some of the homebrews you have made in the past, and hook them up with a sixer of the stuff you brewed that day. They get beer, you get beer. They help and perhaps some day start brewing on their own, you get lunch and hang out with friends. Win-win in my opinion.

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I think a lot of the vets here would agree that this rarely works out like you envision. In my experience I have invited many friends over for a brew day and something always come up when it comes to brew day. Sometimes you might get one to show up and when they realize that they are doing mostly scut work they lose their zeal for the hobby. Personally, out of all my invites that have gone out over time I have had one person show up and he bolted during the boil.

Other people will argue that too many brewers (and beers) in the brewery is a recipe for forgetting some step, usually a hop addition.

Mainly my point in my posts is not that you can't spread the enthusiasm for the hobby but that it is easy to burnout on any hobby if you go into it too deep and it comes to be a chore rather than a happy diversion.

Coastarine said:

... I like the atmosphere of hospitality. No need to bring pen and paper into this.

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I'm with you. Also, nicely put.

My two cents is this: Accept the compliment, refuse the money. Invite your friend over for beer often and enjoy it.

I have a couple of buddy's that buy the stuff to make the brew than we split the goods when it is done.

llazy_llama said:

Yeah... I don't know about you folks, but spending time in a federal prison just doesn't sound like fun to me.

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You mean "federal pound me in the ass prison"? Office Space rules!!!

leapdog said:

That's exactly the way i look at it...which is why my general idea is to get the friends to come over and help a bit on brew day. Put them to work doing the things you don't need to do like sanitize, or bottle a batch. Have them bring over some brews and food to drink and eat while brewing. Let them enjoy some of the homebrews you have made in the past, and hook them up with a sixer of the stuff you brewed that day. They get beer, you get beer. They help and perhaps some day start brewing on their own, you get lunch and hang out with friends. Win-win in my opinion.

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Damnit, you're making me want to ditch the revision and go home and brew beer! Also,

TexasSpartan said:

TABC

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? The Anti-Beer Committee?

ChemE said:

You mean "federal pound me in the ass prison"? Office Space rules!!!

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Well, aren't you a little late to the party?

theonecynic said:

? The Anti-Beer Committee?

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Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission. Although I think The Anti-Beer Committee is an equally good description.

double_e5 said:

Well, aren't you a little late to the party?

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Mea culpa; I hadn't read the whole thread before I posted that.

**edit** I should mention that i did not read the thread all the way through.**edit**

2 years from now regardless of how it turns out you will be saying, "It sounded like a good idea at the time."

Can you possibly be more convenient than the local grocery store?

How much would you charge?

I did all of this complicated math to prove my point but it was confusing so I deleted it.

My girlfriend and I own a restaurant. Making money doing anything is hard. Make sure you do ALL of the math right.

You need to calculate:
Grain
hops
yeast
priming sugar
misc beer ingredients
bottles
caps
cleaning agents
propane (or electric depending)
labels?
cardboard six pack holders?

personally i do not think that there is any chance you can turn a profit without selling to the public. when i am really tight on money i will tell my friends that they need to pay for my beer, they then start bringing their own.