Interesting German Brewing PDF

I'll probably krausen the batch I have in fermenters now. make up a 1 gallon batch and pitch 1/2 in each to carbonate and condition.

I was hoping someone with a DO meter would know when the oxygen levels start to go up on a "finished" primary ferment, so I can krausen and package before then.

jddevinn said:

I added a SMB Dosage for mash and boil in mg/l.

I adjust the Sodium overall finished water profile by adding the terms +24[ppm per 100 mg/ml] x (SMB dosage mash[mg/ml] / 100) + 24[ppm per 100 mg/ml] x (SMB dosage sparge[mg/ml] / 100)

Sulfat overall finished water profile is adjusted by adding the terms (and I'm not 100% sure I'm right here???) +76[ppm per 100 mg/ml] x (SMB dosage mash[mg/ml] / 100) + 76[ppm per 100 mg/ml] x (SMB dosage sparge[mg/ml] / 100)

Next to this I calculate how many grams to add. I fly sparge so I note how much water is in the HLT and dose all of this after I boil post mashout (I boil the strike water and dose in the boil kettle).

The red percentage values are my percent off targets. I use these with a macro to automatically determine doses of minerals. As you can see with the example I am 90% over on Sodium and should have used some RO water (but I didn't )



....Martin mabrungard I hope this screenshot falls under what is OK to share, if not I will remove it. <removed. I'd forgotten that the sheet is locked.

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I came across a quote on a probrewers forum that referenced a paper AJ did. The paper wasn't available anymore (at least at that link) but the guy stated:

..."but I'd consider adding 30 mg of sodium metabisulfite or 35 mg of potassium metabisulfite per gallon of water in your situation. It would be a lot easier than crushing up a bunch of tablets. Anyway, an A.J. deLange article on chlorine/chloramine (available at http://ajdel.wetnewf.org:81/) claims that those rates will treat the worst-case scenario of 3 mg/L chloramine. It'll also treat 6 mg/L of chlorine. If your water has 3 mg/L chloramine, the treatment will result in 3 mg/L of extra chloride ions and 8 mg/L of extra sulfate ions. If your water has 6 mg/L of chlorine, the treatment will result in 6 mg/L of extra chloride ions and 8 mg/L of extra sulfate ions. Those are pretty small changes. If your water has less chlorine or chloramine, the treatment will result in some sulfur dioxide. Some of it will be driven off in the boil, and some will react with mash compounds to form sulfate ions that will approach the 8 mg/L maximum."

In summary:

@ 30 mg SMB or 35 mg KMB per gallon:
This will treat 3 mg/L Chloramine and 6 mg/L Chlorine

@ these rates, this will produce the following
If water contains Chloramine – 3 mg/L of extra chloride ions and 8 mg/L of extra sulfate
If water contains Chlorine – 6 mg/L of extra chloride ions and 8 mg/L of extra sulfate

Maybe AJ can shed some light to see if he is quoted correctly.

I assume I can ratio that to see how much Chloride and Sulfate I would be adding. What about Sodium now?

Also that example is for treating chlorine/chloramine, so how would that change if you are using RO or Distilled at 100%?

ParanoidAndroid said:

I came across a quote on a probrewers forum that referenced a paper AJ did. The paper wasn't available anymore (at least at that link) but the guy stated:

..."but I'd consider adding 30 mg of sodium metabisulfite or 35 mg of potassium metabisulfite per gallon of water in your situation. It would be a lot easier than crushing up a bunch of tablets. Anyway, an A.J. deLange article on chlorine/chloramine (available at http://ajdel.wetnewf.org:81/) claims that those rates will treat the worst-case scenario of 3 mg/L chloramine. It'll also treat 6 mg/L of chlorine. If your water has 3 mg/L chloramine, the treatment will result in 3 mg/L of extra chloride ions and 8 mg/L of extra sulfate ions. If your water has 6 mg/L of chlorine, the treatment will result in 6 mg/L of extra chloride ions and 8 mg/L of extra sulfate ions. Those are pretty small changes. If your water has less chlorine or chloramine, the treatment will result in some sulfur dioxide. Some of it will be driven off in the boil, and some will react with mash compounds to form sulfate ions that will approach the 8 mg/L maximum."

In summary:

@ 30 mg SMB or 35 mg KMB per gallon:
This will treat 3 mg/L Chloramine and 6 mg/L Chlorine

@ these rates, this will produce the following
If water contains Chloramine – 3 mg/L of extra chloride ions and 8 mg/L of extra sulfate
If water contains Chlorine – 6 mg/L of extra chloride ions and 8 mg/L of extra sulfate

Maybe AJ can shed some light to see if he is quoted correctly.

I assume I can ratio that to see how much Chloride and Sulfate I would be adding. What about Sodium now?

Also that example is for treating chlorine/chloramine, so how would that change if you are using RO or Distilled at 100%?

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In this context the SMB was used to react with oxygen as a oxidation deterrent not for Chlorine/Chloramine reduction. The sulfate and sodium additions that I used were present in the paper being discussed here, and are dependent on the O2 absorption of the process.

ParanoidAndroid said:

Say you add 1.0 grams of SMB to your water. What is the outcome of that if you have 5 gallons of Distilled water in grams of Na and SO4?

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Impossible to determine. Sodium metabite, Na2S2O5 has a molecular weight of 190.1 mg/mmol so if you add 1 gram you will be adding 1000/190.1 = 5.26 mmol. That reacts with 5.26 mmol of water to give 10.5 mmol of bisulfite ion

S2O5-- + H2O --> 2HSO3-

Now if you supply 10.5 mmol of atomic oxygen or another oxidizing agent with water you will get 10.5 mmol of sulfate. If there are no sufficiently strong oxidizing agents around you will get none. Or anywhere in between.

Some bisulfite ions will pick up a proton.

HSO3- + H+ ---> H2SO3 ---> SO2 + H2O

You smell that when making metabite solutions for de-chlorinating. Obviously, that S which escapes as SO2 does not appear as sulfate.

Bisulfite is also well known for its ability to form 'adducts' with aldehydes. In doing this the aldehyde is reduced but the SO3 stays stuck to it (the aduct often precipitates). Clearly any bisulfite that does this will not appear as sulfate.

Thus you can calculate the maximum sulfate that can potentially arise but whether that maxiumum will be approached is another matter entirely.

ParanoidAndroid said:

..."but I'd consider adding 30 mg of sodium metabisulfite or 35 mg of potassium metabisulfite per gallon of water in your situation. It would be a lot easier than crushing up a bunch of tablets. Anyway, an A.J. deLange article on chlorine/chloramine (available at http://ajdel.wetnewf.org:81/) claims that those rates will treat the worst-case scenario of 3 mg/L chloramine....

The paper wasn't available anymore (at least at that link) but the guy stated:

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That address was from when I tried to run a server at home. As do most, my ISP tries to prevent that by blocking Port 80. As is often the case some enterprising guy came up with a scheme where his DNS servers direct anything addressed to you to your IP with :81 appended to the end which your iP doesn't block. The paper is still available at www.wetnewf.org (no port 81).

Things are a little different here but the basic principle is the same. Each mole of metabite contains 2 moles of sulfur in a form that needs 1 mole of oxidizing agent per mole of sulfur to become sulfate.

ajdelange said:

That address was from when I tried to run a server at home. As do most, my ISP tries to prevent that by blocking Port 80. As is often the case some enterprising guy came up with a scheme where his DNS servers direct anything addressed to you to your IP with :81 appended to the end which your iP doesn't block. The paper is still available at www.wetnewf.org (no port 81).

Things are a little different here but the basic principle is the same. Each mole of metabite contains 2 moles of sulfur in a form that needs 1 mole of oxidizing agent per mole of sulfur to become sulfate.

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Gotcha, thanks.

I'm going to experiment with a basic IPA this week.

90% 2-Row
5% C60
5% Munich

Simcoe for bittering and Citra/Amarillo for 5/0/whirlpool/keghop

Im looking to used the yeast/dextrose, Brewtan B, and SMB. I'm looking at this schedule for a 3.25 gal BIAB batch (75% Distilled Water/25% Tap):

-Yeast and Dextrose in the full volume (4.6 gallons) for 20 minutes
-SMB @ 50-75 mg/L after the 20 minutes is up (not sure on SMB doseage yet)
-Brewtan B after giving the SMB 5 minutes to do its thing

SMB will just be the mash addition since there is no sparge.

Other additions include Wyeast Nutrient @ 15 minutes, Irish Moss @ 10 minutes, another Brewtan B addition @ 5 or flamout.


Anything wrong with that schedule?

Kegged my first LODO attempt yesterday, a malt focused APA. The mash was very aromatic and I have a few tweaks in my process I need to do but it'll still be interesting to see if theres anything different about the finished beer, particularly its shelf life.
Out of curiosity I tried the yeast/dextrose water treatment on a range of styles to see how things would turn out. So far Ive done it on an APA, American Amber, Smoked Robust Porter, American Stout, and a Berliner in the next day or so. All batches other than my first had essentially no mash aroma so results should be interesting. Everything is still a couple weeks from being on tap so we'll see.
Im kind of bogged down for the next month preparing for a Brewfest but once that passes and frees up my pipeline I look forward to actually doing some side by side batches to test this stuff.

I'm about 3 weeks since I did my first LoDO and about 2 weeks since I racked to kegs. I've been watching the pressure rise in the kegs every day but over the last few days it dropped so i suspect there is a leak in my spunding fittings. I've got at least 2-2.1 vols given my temp and pressure so not too far off, but i pulled off the spunding valves for now since they never reached the set point any ways.

So i pulled a quick sample to see what the beer was like. I realize it still has a few weeks of lagering to go but the sulfur stench is overwhelming and hasn't changed a bit since i kegged. Starting to worry I might have a dumper on my hands.

Never had anything like this before. Is this a consequence of not using up all of the SMB? I'll let this ride for a few more weeks but if it doesn't clear up what can be done?

schematix said:

I'm about 3 weeks since I did my first LoDO and about 2 weeks since I racked to kegs. I've been watching the pressure rise in the kegs every day but over the last few days it dropped so i suspect there is a leak in my spunding fittings. I've got at least 2-2.1 vols given my temp and pressure so not too far off, but i pulled off the spunding valves for now since they never reached the set point any ways.

So i pulled a quick sample to see what the beer was like. I realize it still has a few weeks of lagering to go but the sulfur stench is overwhelming and hasn't changed a bit since i kegged. Starting to worry I might have a dumper on my hands.

Never had anything like this before. Is this a consequence of not using up all of the SMB? I'll let this ride for a few more weeks but if it doesn't clear up what can be done?

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From what I've read, it'll age out. I'm in the same boat as you. I have a pilsner that is a sulfur bomb at the moment, although I haven't tried it in a week, so hopefully it's dissipated. It's, likewise, my first low DO beer. Does have much of the fresh lingering grain flavor, but I didn't necessarily expect it since I didn't do the FULL-ON method of all stainless, racking with extract left, spunding, etc. Just wanting to see if I notice any difference in using preboiled water with SMB first. But I do expect to taste a better malt quality and longer shelf life. Jury's still out though...

it definitely sounds like an SMB issue. others have reported degassing to relieve the sulfur flavor. check a few posts back. it sounds like the SMB doses in the PDF are too high for a lot of people

Has anyone done any testing on priming kegs instead of spunding? I remember reading the point of spunding was to have the yeast scavenge the oxygen which priming would effectively do too right?
Many people don't have the set up to monitor gravity until it's a couple points out. Plus, with the speed of ale fermentations timing that out around life could be equally difficult. However a lot of people have these carboy cap/racking cane closed system transfer set ups. Seems you could add the priming sugar when you swap the airlock for the racking set up and get all the same benefits with less yeast ending up in the keg. Thoughts?

beersk said:

I have a pilsner that is a sulfur bomb at the moment, although I haven't tried it in a week, so hopefully it's dissipated.

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This is called 'Jungbuket' (often translated as 'beer stench') and is, for the lager strains at least quite normal. The amazing thing about it is that is lingers for weeks and then disappears overnight. That is if everything is normal.

KeyWestBrewing said:

Has anyone done any testing on priming kegs instead of spunding? I remember reading the point of spunding was to have the yeast scavenge the oxygen which priming would effectively do too right?
Many people don't have the set up to monitor gravity until it's a couple points out. Plus, with the speed of ale fermentations timing that out around life could be equally difficult. However a lot of people have these carboy cap/racking cane closed system transfer set ups. Seems you could add the priming sugar when you swap the airlock for the racking set up and get all the same benefits with less yeast ending up in the keg. Thoughts?

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I think priming was shown to not keep the flavor. I'm sure it helps some, but the sure fire way is to rack with extract left. And, to my understanding, you can monitor the airlock activity until it slows dramatically, say 4-6 days, check the gravity and rack then.

ajdelange said:

This is called 'Jungbuket' (often translated as 'beer stench') and is, for the lager strains at least quite normal. The amazing thing about it is that is lingers for weeks and then disappears overnight. That is if everything is normal.

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Thanks, AJ. And, to be honest, this isn't a lager. It's not a pilsner, I should've specified that. Can't imagine it's an SMB issue. I didn't use that much, only 1.2g in the mash and same amount in sparge water for a 5 gallon batch. It shouldn't be overpowering, but who knows, maybe it's a yeast that doesn't react well with it. It's with Wyeast 1007 yeast fermented at 58F.

I really appreciate you doing this. While I won't be able to do all the recommendations, I can try to do my best at reducing oxygen.

When last I visited this site I was being chastised for suggesting someone with classic HSA off flavors try and reduce their splashing. I was told by several people that HSA is a myth and everyone but me seemed to know that. Now it seems that it is such a problem that I'm screwed before I even start? I gotta give up brewing or coming to this site.

Hermit said:

When last I visited this site I was being chastised for suggesting someone with classic HSA off flavors try and reduce their splashing. I was told by several people that HSA is a myth and everyone but me seemed to know that. Now it seems that it is such a problem that I'm screwed before I even start? I gotta give up brewing or coming to this site.

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Understandable. The new information seems to be that the threshold for HSA is so low, that there is little to no discernible difference in oxidation levels between what used to be considered good hot side practice and sloppy hot side practice. To really get a noticeable improvement in oxidation, extraordinary measures are required to control O2 levels. At least that's the claim.

Brew on

doug293cz said:

Understandable. The new information seems to be that the threshold for HSA is so low, that there is little to no discernible difference in oxidation levels between what used to be considered good hot side practice and sloppy hot side practice. To really get a noticeable improvement in oxidation, extraordinary measures are required to control O2 levels. At least that's the claim.

Brew on

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That is my understanding as well and it's quite discouraging because not everyone will have the time or ambition for the added equipment and work involved in ridding O2 from the entire process. I've done a couple low DO batches, but my process hasn't been perfect. I'm viewing it more as a natural progression to getting a completely DO-free process. It kinda feels like I'm starting brewing all over again. It's kinda cool. But also you feel that discouragement when learning new things...

beersk said:

That is my understanding as well and it's quite discouraging because not everyone will have the time or ambition for the added equipment and work involved in ridding O2 from the entire process. I've done a couple low DO batches, but my process hasn't been perfect. I'm viewing it more as a natural progression to getting a completely DO-free process. It kinda feels like I'm starting brewing all over again. It's kinda cool. But also you feel that discouragement when learning new things...

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No one said it would be easy..... If it was easy for big breweries to do, wouldn't you think all the breweries would have the flavors? If most big breweries with professionally schooled brewers can't hack it on purposely built high end systems, why is the assumption that it would be easy for the homebrewer with no education and cobbled together equipment? This I don't follow. Everyone complained that I was pontificating, and full of ****. So I give you the answers, and now everyone complains they are too hard to follow. You guys are somethin...

rabeb25 said:

No one said it would be easy..... If it was easy for big breweries to do, wouldn't you think all the breweries would have the flavors? If most big breweries with professionally schooled brewers can't hack it on purposely built high end systems, why is the assumption that it would be easy for the homebrewer with no education and cobbled together equipment? This I don't follow. Everyone complained that I was pontificating, and full of ****. So I give you the answers, and now everyone complains they are too hard to follow. You guys are somethin...

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these people have been receptive and are attempting to attain a true LODO process. they were just saying it's frustrating but they're going to take it in baby steps. your posts have really been giving this thread an uncomfortable vibe

Hermit said:

When last I visited this site I was being chastised for suggesting someone with classic HSA off flavors try and reduce their splashing. I was told by several people that HSA is a myth and everyone but me seemed to know that. Now it seems that it is such a problem that I'm screwed before I even start? I gotta give up brewing or coming to this site.

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To be fair theres probably less people on this forum attempting any of this than there is that think its a bunch of BS. Its also worth considering what comes off as opinion vs whats been written in some of the most respected brewing texts to date. Now, the people that have put all this together had a goal in mind with doing all of this and they have a strong opinion they're more than entitled to. Personally whether I achieve 'It' or not doesn't matter to me but I do see a lot of potential in improving the flavor stability of my beer by cutting down oxidation where it isn't needed. At the very least this pdf as a great write up on preventing oxidation that could be helpful to any brewer if applied the right way.

You see, there in lies the problem. Very few are. Everyone is looking for a shortcut or work around, or half assing it.. Out of these 54 some pages, I don't recall many if any following the paper to the letter as of yet. I get these thread notifications, and its always someone who says its pointless(99% of time who has never tried it) or that its too hard, or someone looking for a work around. Its a slam to me(us), and these almost god like German brewmasters that are able to turn out these products. It's not easy, and it's not obtainable using home brewing mentality. Its very frustrating for someone who put years of work into this, allowed it out to the public, only for it to be half assed, then results based off that.. Notifications removed, and will let you all be.

TheHairyHop said:

these people have been receptive and are attempting to attain a true LODO process. they were just saying it's frustrating but they're going to take it in baby steps. your posts have really been giving this thread an uncomfortable vibe

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Yeah, good points. That was what I was trying to say. I'm taking it in baby steps. So far it's not been to big of a deal, just don't have it all perfected or anything yet. And I'm a perfectionist, so that's why it's a frustrating process, as learning anything new often is.

@KeyWestBrewing - agree 100%, there has to be merit in preventing oxidation at any level, regardless of whether IT is achieved. At least that's where I stand right now. I preboil, I use the SMB, I siphon strike and sparge water, don't splash, etc. but beyond that, I'm not going too wild with it.

@rabeb25 - Bryan, I know I'm "half assing it" at the moment, but I'm working my way up. The last couple beers I've racked over with extract left, hoping for good results. I'm not out to gain your respect because as we all know, that was gone a long time ago. I'm just saying, I'm not out to offend you or demean your years of work. I fully believe that O2 is a killer, it's just a process for those of us who do believe there's merit to the low DO thing. It's difficult to take such a leap to completely alter our process, that we've learned over years and years of people telling us "this is the way it's done". We have to unlearn it all and relearn how to brew. That's kind of where I'm at now. It's fun but also frustrating.

I came across something of note while reading up on the new Sierra Nevada Oktoberfest (which is outstanding again)...

This is from a guy who works within Sierra Nevada.

He states that SN was wanting to do some mini kegs. However everyone they tested had O2 pickup and iron leaching problems (among other problems), so it was scrapped. He goes on to say that they didn't do stainless growlers because of similar issues with iron leaching from the stainless. It was minimal leaching, but it was measureable and detrimental. He goes into their keg buying process and says that each one is bought new, and are passivated in-house. They have their own "pickling liquer" made of acid and hop beta acids that stays in the keg for 14 days. This passivation prevents the iron leaching. Over enough time, and hoppy beers, the stainless would stop the leach, but they don't want their beer to be the ones filled with iron.

Couple of things about this:

1.) Ive read that you can passivate the 15.5 gal kegs with some barkeepers friend. But what about the smaller corneys....do they come passivated, or do we need to be doing it ourselves? In searching I saw where AEB does passivate, but they are the top of the line kegs. I assume these old soda kegs we've been using, if they were passivated, have lost the passivation over time. I guess this would lead to iron leaching and oxidation via the Fenton Reaction.

2.) Brewtan-B acts as a metal chelating agent and is able to complex iron therefore blocking oxidation via the fenton reaction. But does it do this with iron during the brewing process, or is this something its able to do in the keg as well?



EDIT: That being said, I just purchased two new AMCYL 3 gallon kegs. I cleaned them with some boiling water and oxyclean free. Any reason I should be worried about that doing something to the inside of the keg? Removing passivation?

rabeb25 said:

You see, there in lies the problem. Very few are. Everyone is looking for a shortcut or work around, or half assing it.. Out of these 54 some pages, I don't recall many if any following the paper to the letter as of yet. I get these thread notifications, and its always someone who says its pointless(99% of time who has never tried it) or that its too hard, or someone looking for a work around. Its a slam to me(us), and these almost god like German brewmasters that are able to turn out these products. It's not easy, and it's not obtainable using home brewing mentality. Its very frustrating for someone who put years of work into this, allowed it out to the public, only for it to be half assed, then results based off that.. Notifications removed, and will let you all be.

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In 55 pages I have not seen any DO results from finished products, or products using one half of the method or the other (did I miss it?). Since you stopped posting and berating everyone who questions something (while providing no proof just saying "it works"), there has been very interesting and constructive discussion as others are trying out parts of the process and documenting their experience.

I am very curious to see what happens to these "sulfur bombs" and whether they right themselves with time and whether they are significantly better tasting now than when brewed prior to this. Also curious to see the applicability of this process to non-german lagers as those don't seem mind-blowing to me (IMO) in all the ones I've had imported and served at as authentic a place you'll find in the states. Very good beers, but I guess I'm just an admirer of awful beer like everyone else. Relax; have a Bud Light.

rabeb25 said:

You see, there in lies the problem. Very few are. Everyone is looking for a shortcut or work around, or half assing it.. Out of these 54 some pages, I don't recall many if any following the paper to the letter as of yet. I get these thread notifications, and its always someone who says its pointless(99% of time who has never tried it) or that its too hard, or someone looking for a work around. Its a slam to me(us), and these almost god like German brewmasters that are able to turn out these products. It's not easy, and it's not obtainable using home brewing mentality. Its very frustrating for someone who put years of work into this, allowed it out to the public, only for it to be half assed, then results based off that.. Notifications removed, and will let you all be.

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You've got to understand that to implement even some of these things means a total overhaul of some peoples systems. So its to be expected that people would try to find short cuts first instead of scrapping everything and opening up their wallets. Its a bit ironic that the PDF write up is essentially you guys finding short cuts aimed at achieving what is done in world class brewhouses. I wouldn't get so worked up about it, the people that want to try it out will try it out. If people aren't following your direction and saying 'this ruined my beer' then its not really a knock against you.

thedon986 said:

I am very curious to see what happens to these "sulfur bombs" and whether they right themselves with time and whether they are significantly better tasting now than when brewed prior to this. Also curious to see the applicability of this process to non-german lagers as those don't seem mind-blowing to me (IMO) in all the ones I've had imported and served at as authentic a place you'll find in the states. Very good beers, but I guess I'm just an admirer of awful beer like everyone else. Relax; have a Bud Light.

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The sulfur in the beer I had a ton of it in is now normal. I don't have it on tap yet, but the last sample I had tasted like it had all dissipated. Thankfully...
But on your point of non-German lagers, I'd expect a low DO process to improve all beers, not just German styles. It may be most noticeable in something like a helles where that rich malt character is warranted. But there's no reason it can't and shouldn't be applied to any and all beer styles. And of course, some adjustment on hops and grain amounts will be necessary, assuming it's true and that malt characters become even more rich and pronounced.
I fully endorse the idea of low DO, just not quite there for the process yet. It's something that takes time. I don't think any of the people who wrote the paper scrapped everything and switched to low DO. They were already on their way there when one of the guys said, "hey, oxygen, yeah, let's get rid of that." They were already doing much of the process, just not necessarily the preboil with SMB.

Quick update on my Marzen brewed on May 29th. Still extremely cloudy. Still getting more sulphur than I would like. Taste is good if you can ignore the sulphur on the nose.

Preliminary conclusion: I'll continue incorporating parts of the low DO procedure, but I will never spund in the keg again. I'm pouring too many ugly pints.

FWIW, I followed the procedure with the exception of getting the pitching temp down low enough before tossing in the yeast.

Hi,
Apologies if this has been asked and answered already, it is taking some time to chew through all the posts (only reached #100!)

First of all, thanks to the OP for sharing your experiments.

I understand the method requires keeping oxygen in check from start to finish.
Would it be there any benefit if one was only able to implement some of the practices but not all?
For example, I can probably boil the brewing liquor and add SMB at different stages in the process, but will struggle to keep O2 out completely during transfers, etc.

Is in this case something-better-than-nothing or is this method an all-or-nothing kind of thing?

Thanks,
pp

p_p said:

Hi,
Apologies if this has been asked and answered already, it is taking some time to chew through all the posts (only reached #100!)

First of all, thanks to the OP for sharing your experiments.

I understand the method requires keeping oxygen in check from start to finish.
Would it be there any benefit if one was only able to implement some of the practices but not all?
For example, I can probably boil the brewing liquor and add SMB at different stages in the process, but will struggle to keep O2 out completely during transfers, etc.

Is in this case something-better-than-nothing or is this method an all-or-nothing kind of thing?

Thanks,
pp

Click to expand...

Yeah, it's basically an all-or-nothing deal. I'm still clinging to the hope that any little bit helps though. I have to believe at the very least preboiling and SMB has to improve the beer some. But who knows, still working on that.

Thanks to the authors and everyone who has contributed - fascinating stuff and well worth exploring. I have read the 55 pages of this thread and have noted a few thoughts/questions.

Measuring final DO - how is this done in a repeatable and accurate way with a handheld meter like the Extech (perhaps the better question is whether it is at all possible with a handheld meter)? I assume pouring a sample into a glass and sticking the probe in will provide a reading of the oxygen that was just swirled into the beer during the pour?

Is the consensus that getting the kind of sensitivity and precision required for DO measurements in the range of 0-150 ppb requires something like the Hach HQ40d ($2000)? Has anyone found a more affordable option? There was mention of getting a quality probe and powering and extracting readings via an arduino/raspberry Pi. Any more specific info on this would be interesting.

I am very interested in measuring and monitoring my DO levels (especially in the final product) but will only buy equipment if it will give me meaningful data.

On another note, there was some discussion on the grade/quality of CO2. I have researched this extensively as I have struggled with this in the past. The following CO2 grades are available in Europe and the US and are all considered 'food grade'. Below I have provided ppm levels of o2 in the gas and what the resultant ppb levels of DO would be in the carbonated beer (assuming an added 1 vol of co2 with the respective gas).

gas / region / o2 impurity level / resultant DO level in beer

CO2 3.0 / EU / <200 ppm / <286 ppb
CO2 4.5 / EU / <15 ppm / <21 ppb
CO2 4.8 / EU / <2 ppm / <3 ppb
CO2 (beverage grade) / US / <30 ppm / <43 ppb

(Those ppm levels are the upper spec limits and so actual levels will be lower.)

As you can see these are not meaningless amounts, specially when we are aiming for less than 150 ppb total packaged DO. I have been buying CO2 4.8 here in Europe as it is no more expensive than the lower grades.

p_p said:

Hi,
Apologies if this has been asked and answered already, it is taking some time to chew through all the posts (only reached #100!)

First of all, thanks to the OP for sharing your experiments.

I understand the method requires keeping oxygen in check from start to finish.
Would it be there any benefit if one was only able to implement some of the practices but not all?
For example, I can probably boil the brewing liquor and add SMB at different stages in the process, but will struggle to keep O2 out completely during transfers, etc.

Is in this case something-better-than-nothing or is this method an all-or-nothing kind of thing?

Thanks,
pp

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beersk said:

Yeah, it's basically an all-or-nothing deal. I'm still clinging to the hope that any little bit helps though. I have to believe at the very least preboiling and SMB has to improve the beer some. But who knows, still working on that.

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I can see the case for both sides. If the reactions happen at a certain point then it may not matter how far you've crossed the line, the damage is done. On the other hand maybe its progressive and the closer you get to ideal the more improvement you see. Breweries are always trying to knock down their TPO so being mindful of the beers DO levels isn't exactly anything new.

the HSA is going to be pretty all or nothing, judging from the reaction rates. some specific stages where you're going to have problems would help

Was watching a CCB video and in going over their preference for canning Wayne Wambles drops some interesting info on DO ingress of bottled beers. Its from about 26:00-28:30 for those interested... [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFYnGz-2KO0[/ame]

Cool tidbit - the man doing lab work in one of the scenes is now the head brewer at a local brewery.

KeyWestBrewing said:

I can see the case for both sides. If the reactions happen at a certain point then it may not matter how far you've crossed the line, the damage is done. On the other hand maybe its progressive and the closer you get to ideal the more improvement you see. Breweries are always trying to knock down their TPO so being mindful of the beers DO levels isn't exactly anything new.

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This is what I'm thinking/hoping for; any little bit to prevent O2 ingress helps, I can only imagine. But hey, it might all be bogus, who knows. Doesn't hurt to try.

Every little bit helps imo

Seems like HSA is way worse than cold side. I have some results from trying this, and I'll report back when I can.

jdebonth said:

Is the consensus that getting the kind of sensitivity and precision required for DO measurements in the range of 0-150 ppb requires something like the Hach HQ40d ($2000)? Has anyone found a more affordable option? There was mention of getting a quality probe and powering and extracting readings via an arduino/raspberry Pi. Any more specific info on this would be interesting.

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What I have found is this:

http://atlas-scientific.com/product_pages/kits/do_kit.html

The Atlas Scientific™ EZO™ class embedded D.O. circuit, is our 6th generation embedded dissolved oxygen circuit. This EZO class D.O. circuit, offers the highest level of stability and accuracy. With proper configuration the EZO class D.O. circuit, can meet, or exceed the accuracy and precision found in most bench top laboratory grade dissolved oxygen meters. The EZO™ D.O. circuit, can work with any off-the-shelf galvanic HDPE dissolved oxygen probe/sensor/electrode.

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This can be controlled pretty easily by a raspberry pi and there are plenty of how-to guides, wiring and code samples available.

They also sell a DO probe with the following specs:

http://atlas-scientific.com/_files/_datasheets/_probe/DO_probe.pdf

Full range dissolved oxygen readings from 0.01 to +35.99 mg/L
Accurate dissolved oxygen readings down to the hundredths place (+/- 0.2)
Temperature compensation

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Looks like this is slightly more precise than the Extech (+/- 0.2 vs 0.4 ppm) but still not sufficient for our needs. I wonder if a Hamilton VisiTrace DO 120 or equivalent (less expensive) probe could be used with this circuit.

I'm starting to implement some steps in LODO process. I brewed an IPA last night (90% 2-row, 5% munich, 5% c-60, simcoe for bittering, Amarillo and citra for flamout/whirlpool, dryhop).

I did the yeast and dextrose trick (1.6 g/gal yeast & 0.8 g/gal dextrose in strike) for 30 minutes then hit it with 50 mg/L of SMB. I also added Brewtan B before mashing in (also at flameout) and used 2% water w/ SMB to condition my grain.

The mash really didn't have a smell. It was weird. I basically had stick my nose in the mash to smell anything. The sample I take at 15 min into mash for pH seemed really light also.

Everything seemed to drop really quickly. I assume this is from the brewtan. This is only my second time using it.

Interested to hear your results. So far I have 2 beers on tap implementing the mash procedures. Both are really good but are on par for what I'm used to with my hoppy beers. I still have some more malt forward styles to keg that I did this on. I'm thinking they'll be better examples for this.

KeyWestBrewing said:

Interested to hear your results. So far I have 2 beers on tap implementing the mash procedures. Both are really good but are on par for what I'm used to with my hoppy beers. I still have some more malt forward styles to keg that I did this on. I'm thinking they'll be better examples for this.

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I used wyeast nutrient which contains zinc. The german pdf says this is a no-no, but considering brewtan is a metal chelator, I added it anyway, hoping the brewtan would do its job, while adding the other components of the nutrient.

I wonder if using brewtan would allow people to continue to use their copper chillers? I have a stainless, so I'm not worried about that portion, but it would save others money.

I mentioned earlier about stainless steel and the passivation layer which protects iron leaching from stainless. It seems as though brewtan would be beneficial for everyone in this sense. I know how passivation works somewhat, but given that there's no way to measure whether your equipment (kegs, bk, mt, ss spoons, etc.) maintains passivation, it makes sense to use it to chelate metals during the whole process. This would solve oxidation, or possible oxidation, that route....Still gotta handle the other stuff though.

Ill be trying a brown ale shortly for fall.