First Kettle Sour - specific steps Questions

So, I brewed the Weizenbock kit I talked about, but I didn't add hops, so it's just wheat malt extract, basically. Got it down to 110, then pitched a vial of l. brevis. 72 hours later, no change in pH.

My guess:

-I didn't do anything to get the pH lower before pitching, so it was around 6.
-I underpitched by not making a starter.

I've kept the temp around 100 the entire time with towels and a heat pad.

What should I do? Keep waiting? Pitch more brevis? Give up and start over?

72 hours? Honestly, start over. Brevis is really touchy. You could try increasing temp, but I don't know that it'll help at this point.

Here's what you want to do - get some lacto plantarum probiotics, or some good belly probiotic juice. Make a 1 liter starter, give it a day or two, and pitch your starter when your wort is at 80-90°F. Within 24 hours, you should be at pH ~3.5 or less. No hops!

With L. Brevis (whitelabs 672) the Milk The Funk Wiki page says its temp range is 70-95 F... should I be aiming to hold that, or does the 112-120 F still hold true as most kettle souring techniques describe?

I've had decent success with pitching in the 90s and then ramping it up towards 110-115 once you see the ph drop a bit and activity start.

You should definitely do starter ahead of time if you bought vial or smack pack. Ive had a few duds, maybe bacteria don't like fridge temps or something. Dunno. But with a starter you'd know you're in trouble before you brew, so you can go to plan B.

I haven't had a chance to use them yet but I took agate's advice and got some probiotic pills with l brevis and l plantarum. Most folks report reliable results, and they're pretty damn cheap.

Ambleside said:

With L. Brevis (whitelabs 672) the Milk The Funk Wiki page says its temp range is 70-95 F... should I be aiming to hold that, or does the 112-120 F still hold true as most kettle souring techniques describe?

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I would keep it in the range recommended for that specific bacteria. I'd try pitching at 95 and holding there if you can. The 112-120°F recommendation is for when you're using a wild culture from grain to kill clostridium bacteria among others, which can make butyric acid. They're all over your grain naturally.

Agate said:

I would keep it in the range recommended for that specific bacteria. I'd try pitching at 95 and holding there if you can. The 112-120°F recommendation is for when you're using a wild culture from grain to kill clostridium bacteria among others, which can make butyric acid. They're all over your grain naturally.

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And I'm assuming the clostridium bacteria is already killed from the entire grain bill during the mash? Stupid question, just making sure.

Yep! Right until you toss a handful of grain into it if you go that route. There are other bacteria that could survive mash temperatures, but a mash-out in the 170's should be enough to pasteurize.

I've got my ph at 4.6 as of 24 hours (now covered again in foil so can't see) but it now is starting to smell exactly like a wine supply shop smells. Kinda acetaldehyde ish. Not sure what to think here... I can hear if fizzling so will be doing another ph check in a few hours but wanted to get a feeler out there for the smell

Sounds like your Brevis is infected with sacch. Unfortunately, that's not uncommon. Lacto really should not fizz. If you take a gravity reading, you'll probably find it attenuating.

I've had great luck with omega yeast's oyl-605. I highly recommend trying this instead of the offerings from the big yeast labs.

So that means it's basically fermenting. I take it the batch is no good now? Will take a gravity reading but still fizzing away.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1445003242.113667.jpgthats all there is appearance wise

Results are in... 1.005 gravity. Learning experience I suppose. How does that Saach infection even occur? Should have pre boiled?

Edit: after some reading, I read that brevis can sour and attenuate pretty well in the kettle. Now that it's already basically fermented, could I raise to a temp that would kill the lacto but not boil off the alcohol. What temp should that be?

<173 F will keep alcohol from boiling. Maybe just below that will kill the L brevis?

But then again, no full boil will have occurred. Just trying to decide if this is save-able or not

And with no boil, I've got all the DMS issues.
Dammit

Keep it under 170 and yon won't have any DMS. You need to be above this temperature to convert SMM to DMS. You can pasteurize it at that temp, hold it for a good 15 minutes and it'll be fine. Just make sure you hit your sourness first. This is how I do all my Berliners, actually. You'll be fine.

Brevis won't attenuate in the kettle - it's been shown that white labs vials have yeast in them. Nothing you could have done to avoid it.

If it doesn't hit your desired sourness, hit it with lactic acid or brew another one, aim for high sourness, and blend them together. It's all a learning experience.

I would get it to 165*F and hold it there 20 to 30 mins. Like Agate stated, if it hasn't soured to where you like it, use a small amount of lactic acid or brew another one for blending and use a fair amount of acidulated or acid malt in your mash.

That's what I did last time I used Lacto from grain. Of course, there was some wild yeast along for the ride from the grain that attenuated from 1.030 to 1.015 or so. I pasteurized at 165 for 20 minutes, added some cane sugar for good effect, and fermented it out with us-05. It came out awesome!