Brewing Really Good Weizen

I had a Penn Brewery hefeweizen recently and it was phenomenal. Really, it knocked my socks off. My weizens are good but nowhere near as good. I want to brew a weizen that's as good as Penn's.

What are the tips for brewing world class weizen?

65% wheat, 35% pilsner?
Add Vienna or Munich?
Wyeast 3068?
Large yeast starter or no yeast starter?
Just bittering hops or a flavor addition?
Adjusting the water profile?
Ferment in the high 60s?
Add lager yeast for cold conditioning?

What flavors did you like about that particular hefe? There's a bit more range in that style than meets the eye. My first few I did with either Pils or 2-Row, but I've got one in the primary that uses all Munich for the barley side of things (50/50 Munich/Wheat). I'm hoping that one is 'breadier'.

(Lived in Dothan AL for a bit, fyi)

There was a banana flavor, but not too much. There was another flavor that's hard to describe- maybe could be very lightly citrus? It surely came from the yeast. It wasn't bready.

Cool. That definitely gives us something to go on.

"There was a banana flavor, but not too much. There was another flavor that's hard to describe- maybe could be very lightly citrus?" - sounds to me like you'll want WLP 351 seasonal Bavarian Hefe yeast. I used it before and more so than other Hefe yeasts, it gives a bit of citrus flavor. Are you positive the citrus flavor wasn't hop-related? A small dash of Cascade/Centennial/Amarillo could be the source. The citrus taste from this yeast is more 'sharp' and acidic than hop citrus tastes. Also, if you really want to tone down the banana, use WLP 320 American Wheat. It's supposed to be more citrus than banana, but I haven't used it yet myself.

"It wasn't bready" - sounds like all Pilsner or regular 2-row is the way to go for the barley portion of the grist. My Munich-based Hefe should be drinkable by the weekend. I'm hoping that one is bready, which I suspect it will be. If its not, I'll report back.

I make a normal sized starter (1qt) for my hefe's. I also ferment them kind of cool, like 63-65F. Despite the conventional wisdom, I get great Hefe flavor in these beers, and the flavor is well blended between the banana/spice/fruit flavors. I think Jamil recommends brewing around 62-63F. If you go high, then I think you'll get more banana/bubblegum and less subtle spice/clove. So don't trust the wisdom that "high temps = more flavor" with Hefe yeasts. Its not quite that simple. The mash profile greatly affects the banana aroma as well. For what it's worth, I always do a single infusion mash, around 150-152, and I don't get banana-bombs with my beers. I believe there is a technique you can use in your mash to get MORE banana (something to do with 'ferulic acid'? I think...), but I don't think that's what you are shooting for here.

Lager yeast for bottle conditioning is something done to either protect the brewery's primary "good" yeast strain, or to create haze in the final beer. I don't think you'll need to go this route at the homebrew level.

Finally, if you really want to know Hefe's, pick up a copy of 'Brewing with Wheat'. Its a cool read. I got it Christmas last year, and should put it on my reading table to review again this year.

I am just about through a hefeweizen that I put through two different unconventional hop schedules 1) bittered only with Cascade to 17 IBU and 2) flavored and dryhopped with Amarillo/Cascade, bittered to 35 IBU. I did these two beers after a hefeweizen I made 2 years ago that was more traditional, and IMO, perfect (single bittering addition of neutral or noble variety, RO dilution).

I now know to treat hefeweizen as a yeast-focused beer. I seem to pick up the small amount of flavor from the Cascade 60 minute hops and the late-hopping+dryhops completely washout the yeast flavors I get from using Wyeast 3068. I'll also dilute my moderately hard water with RO to reduce the bicarbonates, targeting something below 50ppm.

Also how do you treat your water for your Hefe? I use about 3 grams Calcium Chloride with about 3% of the grain bill acidmalt to get the pH down to the proper levels. The calcium helps the yeast to attenuate and the chloride helps add that little extra level of sweetness and mouthfeel to the hefe. Aj deLang has a good water primer out there that Yooper posted under brewing science that does really well at helping get the water into the ball park for the different styles of beer.

Thanks.

"sounds to me like you'll want WLP 351 seasonal Bavarian Hefe yeast. I used it before and more so than other Hefe yeasts, it gives a bit of citrus flavor."

I'll need to give this one a try when it's release this spring.

" Are you positive the citrus flavor wasn't hop-related?"

Not positive, but I have reason to think it was yeast related. I get just a faint hint of the flavor at the tail-end of the keg when using 3068 with Hallertauer. It's almost and after flavor. It's also present in Vitus.

" I make a normal sized starter (1qt) for my hefe's. I also ferment them kind of cool, like 63-65F."

I usually make small starters on the assumption that increased effort gives increased esters. The last batch made me think this wasn't good. I pitched a batch of weizen a couple days ago using a 1qt starter. It's fermenting (open) at 67F. We'll see how this one turns out.

cooper said:

Also how do you treat your water for your Hefe? I use about 3 grams Calcium Chloride with about 3% of the grain bill acidmalt to get the pH down to the proper levels. The calcium helps the yeast to attenuate and the chloride helps add that little extra level of sweetness and mouthfeel to the hefe. Aj deLang has a good water primer out there that Yooper posted under brewing science that does really well at helping get the water into the ball park for the different styles of beer.

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I usually add a 1/2 tsp of gypsum and a 1/4 tsp of epsom. No acid malt.

Should I adjust anything?

My water profile is below.

pH 5.9
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) < 6
Electrical Conductivity < 0.01
Cations 0.1
Anions < 0.1
Sodium, Na 1
Calcium, Ca < 1
Magnesium, Mg < 1
Potassium, K < 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 4
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S << 1
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 3
Chloride, CL 1
Total Alkalinity 3
Total Iron, Fe not detected

I would drop the gypsum and the epsom and try a batch with 1/2 tsp of calcium chloride and calculate whatever 2 or 3 percent of the grain bill would be for the acid malt; for example 2% with a total grain bill of 9.5lbs would look like this: .02 * 16oz/lb * (total grain weight in lbs) oz = .02 *16 * 9.5 = 3.04 oz of acid malt)

cooper said:

I would drop the gypsum and the epsom and try a batch with 1/2 tsp of calcium chloride and calculate whatever 2 or 3 percent of the grain bill would be for the acid malt; for example 2% with a total grain bill of 9.5lbs would look like this: .02 * 16oz/lb * (total grain weight in lbs) oz = .02 *16 * 9.5 = 3.04 oz of acid malt)

Click to expand...

Would you use this formula for all beers or just lighter ones?

I would use this for the lighter ones.

Here is an excellent sticky on matching your water to the style you're brewing.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

Basically as follows:

Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:

Hefeweizen: For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3% (you can make great Hefe with soft water too).

Porter: For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

Light Ale: For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

IPA: For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.

Pilsner or soft water styles: 1/2 tsp calcium chloride, 3% sauermalz

American Pale Ale: 1 tsp calcium chloride, 1 tsp gypsum, 2% sauermalz

British Pale Ale: 2 tsp calcium chloride, 1 tsp gypsum, 2% sauermalz

Hoppy/Strong British Ale: 4 tsp calcium chloride, 2 tsp gypsum, 2% sauermalz

Porter or Stout: 1 tsp calcium chloride (no sauermalz)

Cascadian Dark Ale (hoppy): 1 tsp calcium chloride, 1 tsp gypsum (no sauermalz)

Thanks-

Like the OP I am pursuing a well tuned hefe.

Starter vs none. I go with none, on the suggested theory of the added stress on the yeast creates more esters. 3068 is a very strong/active yeast and will attenuate to high end of the att scale or higher even.

I only use German malts, wheat and pilsen 50-50. On my next round I am going to add 1lb of flaked wheat to add more softness.

Hops: Hall is a safe bet but I say explore. I plan for around 14-16 IBU. Schneider & son's use cascade for an aroma hop in one of their hefe's for a unique difference (green & gold label)

PH/water alterations. This is the last item you tweak imo, recipe tweaks first. I used to use gypsum now I just make sure the ph is 5.2 for mash. If your thinking of using acid malt, I would may be suggest melenoiden as an option, it's slightly acidic (I find) and simulates a deconcoction.. it never seems to add the SRM is says it does in beer smith either.

Sounds like a plan. It's all about finding what you like and not being afraid to try something different. Good stuff.

One important thing I forgot to mention. In the past I have tried variations of german or bavarian malts, paired with US malts and its never the same compared to using the pure german/bav malts, even in small quantities the US malts screwed up the style.

This is the cascade hefe by schneider. It's quite a bit better than their original version IMO.

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