How much water will grains soak up?

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impatient

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I plan to do a protein rest @120 using 2.5 gallons of water with 10lbs of Two-Row for a SMaSH. How much water should I expect 10lbs to soak up?

Also, I was wondering if I can use the protein rest water to sparge with?
 
I forget the figure. It is something like 1/4 or 1/3 Q /per pound.

I am totally bewildered by your second question. Trying to be nice here but I'm not sure what you are picturing. The protein rest water is a subset of your mash water. After the rest you either decoct it to raise the protein temp to saccharification temp or you add liquor to bring the protein mash up to saccharification. Either way the water stays in use until you drain it to the kettle. Then comes sparging. (With different water.)
 
A protein rest is only part of a mash schedule, and sparge water is something different all together. You really should use some brewing software (BeerSmith, BeerTools Pro etc.) to figure out what your trying to do before jumping into all grain.
 
I forget the figure. It is something like 1/4 or 1/3 Q /per pound.

I am totally bewildered by your second question. Trying to be nice here but I'm not sure what you are picturing. The protein rest water is a subset of your mash water. After the rest you either decoct it to raise the protein temp to saccharification temp or you add liquor to bring the protein mash up to saccharification. Either way the water stays in use until you drain it to the kettle. Then comes sparging. (With different water.)

I planned to pull the grain bag and move it to 155 degree water and then put it into the oven at 155 for an hour. I wanted to add more water to the protein rest water and bring it up to 170 for the sparge.

Does removing the grains from the protein rest water remove the enzymes strip the enzymes and cause problems with saccharification?

Just learing here. So, don't be shy. You won't hurt my feelings.
 
I think trying to step mash for your first all grain is highly ambitious, and not in a good way. Try a single rest temp for a while.

To answer your question though, grain holds about .1 gallons per pound so 10 pounds would soak up about 1 gallon.
 
Does removing the grains from the protein rest water remove the enzymes strip the enzymes and cause problems with saccharification?

Absolutely. You must leave the grains in the whole time, you need to raise the mash temp in the same vessel, or do a single temperature infusion with no protein rest (which really isn't usually necessary, or beneficial).
 
Absolutely. You must leave the grains in the whole time, you need to raise the mash temp in the same vessel, or do a single temperature infusion with no protein rest (which really isn't usually necessary, or beneficial).

I thought 2-row recomends a protein rest for crystal clear bear and maximum efficiency.

OK, I will be sure and leave the grains in the protein rest water and add boiling water until the temp is up to 155. Then I'll put it in the oven.

Next question:

Can I use a small amount of sparge water? I want to minimize reduction time.

I was thinking that I could use two container and keep pouring the same water back thru the grain during the sparge using around 2 gallons. Will that work out?
 
First off, I usually use 1/2 qt/lB for water retention, but some of that also accounts for dead space in my MLT.

Second, I'd think that there would still be enzymes available in the grain and the liquid in the grain for conversion, though you might want to rest a little longer than an hour if your paranoid. In the least, you could pull some of the water you used for your protein rest and put it in with the grain in the oven.

I haven't used an oven to do a mash, though I read about it. Sounds interesting, though I don't envy you moving a 10lB bag of wet grain. :)
 
First off, I usually use 1/2 qt/lB for water retention, but some of that also accounts for dead space in my MLT.

Second, I'd think that there would still be enzymes available in the grain and the liquid in the grain for conversion, though you might want to rest a little longer than an hour if your paranoid. In the least, you could pull some of the water you used for your protein rest and put it in with the grain in the oven.

I haven't used an oven to do a mash, though I read about it. Sounds interesting, though I don't envy you moving a 10lB bag of wet grain. :)

I have a 5 gallon pot that is wide and short. Fits right in the oven. What the hell.
 
I thought 2-row recomends a protein rest for crystal clear bear and maximum efficiency.

A protein rest is definitely not needed for well modified 2-row, and can actually do more harm than good and leave you with a thin beer that has no head.

The less sparge water you use, the lower your efficiency will be, and recirculating the same sparge water won't do anything to extract more sugars from the mash, once its saturated it won't draw out anything else, sparge water should be clean fresh water.

I agree with Bobby, a protein rest would not be advisable for your first all grain beer. Of every AG beer I have brewed, I have done a protein rest 1 time for a beer high in wheat (which can benefit from a protein rest sometimes), and it made no difference from my normal efficiency.

Mashing in the oven works well, I did it all the time when I partial mashed.
 
Yes a lot of activity here since I stepped away. It was sort of what I suspected. Palmer's How to Brew section on intro to AG i very good and very free online. I think you come away understanding what you need to understand.

And you need to understand these things. You need to know how to take preboil gravity readings. You need to know how to know when you have collected enough wort. This is not just wing it stuff.

I saw you ask before if it is okay to collect less wort? The answer surprisingly is yes. If you double the amount of grains in the mash and get the same efficiency in your sparge you should hit your target GU much sooner in the wort collection process. But you still need to know when you hit your target GU.

I learned most of my stuff from How to brew to start and AG from Designing Great Beers.
 
Don't take this the wrong way but I don't think you are ready for AG. If you don't know the basic process do some more research and your first AG batch will be that much more enjoyable and make you less frustrated. An addition to knowing the process you have to know how the chemistry of the water affects the final output. Try a partial mash it is a lot more forgiving. AG will produce some nice beer but there is just too many variables that if you don't know what you are doing will just lead to frustration and eventually out of this hobby.
 
I didn't really want to say it because I was fishing to see if I was making a bad assumption but I agree with kryolla. Based on your plans and the words you're using, I'd recommend reading my all grain primer first and heading over to How to Brew - By John Palmer. I'm not sure you get what sparging is for and/or how it is done to get reasonable extraction.
 
Yes a lot of activity here since I stepped away. It was sort of what I suspected. Palmer's How to Brew section on intro to AG i very good and very free online. I think you come away understanding what you need to understand.

And you need to understand these things. You need to know how to take preboil gravity readings. You need to know how to know when you have collected enough wort. This is not just wing it stuff.

I saw you ask before if it is okay to collect less wort? The answer surprisingly is yes. If you double the amount of grains in the mash and get the same efficiency in your sparge you should hit your target GU much sooner in the wort collection process. But you still need to know when you hit your target GU.

I learned most of my stuff from How to brew to start and AG from Designing Great Beers.

I already read thru Palmers. I am just looking for a way to do this with equipment that I have on hand. The grain is cheap. The equipment is not. So, I will do this with what I have on hand. I understand that it is optimal to use the most water for the sparge, however, then I will have to worry about reducing the volume down to end with 5 gallons. I am attempting to do it deathbrewers way except for using the oven to ensure temp and I will be pouring my 170 degree sparge water thru the grains with a sprinkling effect as opposed to tea bagging the grains in the grain bag.

Yee all of little faith. I guess we will se how it turns out.
 
I already read thru Palmers. I am just looking for a way to do this with equipment that I have on hand. The grain is cheap. The equipment is not. So, I will do this with what I have on hand. I understand that it is optimal to use the most water for the sparge, however, then I will have to worry about reducing the volume down to end with 5 gallons. I am attempting to do it deathbrewers way except for using the oven to ensure temp and I will be pouring my 170 degree sparge water thru the grains with a sprinkling effect as opposed to tea bagging the grains in the grain bag.

Yee all of little faith. I guess we will se how it turns out.

You are quoting my post but I think you are answering the two posts that came after mine.

You always have to reduce down to five gallons unless you use a lot more grains and get a very gravity rich sparge. The math will tell you exact quantities of mash water and sparge water and to make a standard 5 gallon batch you will need to extract about 200 GUs for a small beer up to 250 for a medium.

Honestly, I still have no idea what you are picturing. What are sprinkling through to? How much water are you planning to boil?
 
I already read thru Palmers. I am just looking for a way to do this with equipment that I have on hand. The grain is cheap. The equipment is not. So, I will do this with what I have on hand. I understand that it is optimal to use the most water for the sparge, however, then I will have to worry about reducing the volume down to end with 5 gallons. I am attempting to do it deathbrewers way except for using the oven to ensure temp and I will be pouring my 170 degree sparge water thru the grains with a sprinkling effect as opposed to tea bagging the grains in the grain bag.

Yee all of little faith. I guess we will se how it turns out.

You can do it- we believe that! We're just trying to help you do it as easy and efficiently as possible.

What's the recipe? Maybe we can give you some specific pointers (like forgetting about the protein rest- I NEVER do one because it can affect head retention, etc) and how much water to mash and sparge with to meet your goals.
 
Don't take this the wrong way but I don't think you are ready for AG. If you don't know the basic process do some more research and your first AG batch will be that much more enjoyable and make you less frustrated. An addition to knowing the process you have to know how the chemistry of the water affects the final output. Try a partial mash it is a lot more forgiving. AG will produce some nice beer but there is just too many variables that if you don't know what you are doing will just lead to frustration and eventually out of this hobby.

I understand how much grain I need do to the max ppg of the grain.

I understand what tempuratures the alpha and beta perform best at.

I understand that a protease can lead to too many fermentables and less body. And I understand that this is only needed for unmodified grains and using this with modified grains will result in water beer that will not maintain a nice head. I have 10lbs of unmalted/unmodified 2-row that the local HBS recommends the protein rest if I am using only this grain. This phase breaks down the large protein allowing the release of starches that will convert to fermentables and amino acids that the yeast will use for growth.

I understand that utilizing the beta can leading the breakdown of all the sugars resulting in watery beer due to lack of unfermentables.

I understand that utilizing the alpha can will leave unfermentables in the brew that will result in leaving the flavors from the grain and more body.

I understand that it is optimal to target a tempurature range of 153 in order to utilize both the beta amalyse and alpha amalyse. This is because the alpha will break down the amino acid chains into small peices so that the beta can go to town on the ends of of these smaller chains by hydrolization. So, as you approach tempuratures lower than 153, more amino acid chains are broken down resulting in a thinner beer because the yeasties were able to consume the lot. However, on the other end beta will not occur resulting in less food for the yeasties and more body.

I understand that two much water for the steep can result in less dense populations of enzymes slowing conversion of starches. However, by upping the time more starches will be converted to food for the yeasties making a lighter beer.

I understand that not enough water can cause the enzymes to be inhibited by the vast amount sugars eventually stopping the conversion resulting in a bigger beer.

I understand that I could check PH to find the happy medium between the alpha and beta, but, I'm not going there at this point in the game, do you?

And last, I understand that I cannot learn everything from a book. That is why a came to this forum.

I am really not worried about wasting $10.00 worth of grain and $4.00 worth of hops if I do screw up.

Practice makes perfect.
 
You are quoting my post but I think you are answering the two posts that came after mine.

You always have to reduce down to five gallons unless you use a lot more grains and get a very gravity rich sparge. The math will tell you exact quantities of mash water and sparge water and to make a standard 5 gallon batch you will need to extract about 200 GUs for a small beer up to 250 for a medium.
I plan to target 275

Honestly, I still have no idea what you are picturing.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/will-reducing-ag-runoff-hurt-anything-96397/

What are sprinkling through to?
A metal plant watering pot with the little hole on the spout.

How much water are you planning to boil?
First the day before, I will boil two gallons of water and put this in the fridge to coil the wort faster and reduce dimethyl sulfides. I will start my smack pack two days before this.

Well, if I start with 2.5 gallons for the protein rest plus 1.25 quarts of boiling to bring it up to steep. I should end that with about 3 gallons. Then I plan to use 3 gallons of 180 degree water, in order to maintain temp in the plant watering thing (i really don't know what its called) to sprinkle over the grains in my collander over the bottling bucket. So, I will end this process with a total of 6 gallons. However, I want to ferment 5 gallons, so, I will need to reduce the 6 gallons down to 3.5 before bittering. This way after the boil, I should target 3 gallons to add to the 2 gallons in the fridge.
 
So you're going straight from grain to bucket? You need to boil that liquid. There's a lot of bad stuff that gets boiled off.

I think I am confused. Also, boiling down from 6.5 gallons to 3 gallons will likely take you a while.
 
So you're going straight from grain to bucket? You need to boil that liquid. There's a lot of bad stuff that gets boiled off.

I think I am confused. Also, boiling down from 6.5 gallons to 3 gallons will likely take you a while.

I am using the bucket and collander to rinse the grains. Yes it will get boiled, down to 3.5 gallons.
 
You can do it- we believe that! We're just trying to help you do it as easy and efficiently as possible.

What's the recipe? Maybe we can give you some specific pointers (like forgetting about the protein rest- I NEVER do one because it can affect head retention, etc) and how much water to mash and sparge with to meet your goals.


10 lbs of 2-row
2oz of Cascade 8.7%
 
I'm understanding your plan better now- thanks for the explanation.

I would relook at the specifications of the grain- I don't think it's possible to buy undermodified and unmalted two row. If it's unmalted, you can't use it.

You watering set up is the "HLT"- the hot liquor tank. That sounds like it will work just fine.

The only possible flaw I see is trying to boil such a large volume to such a small volume. I boil off about a gallon an hour, maybe a little bit less. If you start with 6 gallons or more, you'll be boiling a really long time and risk overbittering or carmelizing your wort. If you start with 6.5 gallons, though, you won't need that top off water, so that might be the way to go.
 
I'm understanding your plan better now- thanks for the explanation.

I would relook at the specifications of the grain- I don't think it's possible to buy undermodified and unmalted two row. If it's unmalted, you can't use it.

??Do you think the HBS guy was talking out his --s.

You watering set up is the "HLT"- the hot liquor tank. That sounds like it will work just fine.

The only possible flaw I see is trying to boil such a large volume to such a small volume. I boil off about a gallon an hour, maybe a little bit less. If you start with 6 gallons or more, you'll be boiling a really long time and risk overbittering or carmelizing your wort. If you start with 6.5 gallons, though, you won't need that top off water, so that might be the way to go.

How do I cool that much liquid fast enough. I am use to cooling 3 gallons with and extract and partial that I have under my belt.

Be back later. SWMBO calling.
 
10 lbs of 2-row
2oz of Cascade 8.7%

Ok, for that recipe, you probably don't even want a protein rest (I never heard of any undermodified two row available now). You are going to need to do a saccrification rest at 153 or 154 for 45 minutes to an hour. I'd do a single infusion mash, using 1.25 quarts of water per pound of grain. I'd use 167 degree water for the strike water, unless your grains are really cold like from the basement. So, I'd mash in with 12.5 quarts, and then draw off those runnings, and batch sparge with 3 gallons of water at 170 degrees.

If you do decide on a protein rest anyway, I'd do a really thick mash at that point. Then, infuse enough hot water to get you to the 153 mark. Make sure you don't go over 1.5 quarts per pound total in both infusions.

I wouldn't use any top up water- you'd be "diluting" your beer. I'd just split that boil, and use two water baths, if you don't have another way to chill the wort.
 
I would suggest a wort chiller. 25' of copper tubing for an immersion chiller. You could try an ice bath too, but I think you're best off with a chiller.
 
Ok, for that recipe, you probably don't even want a protein rest (I never heard of any undermodified two row available now). You are going to need to do a saccrification rest at 153 or 154 for 45 minutes to an hour. I'd do a single infusion mash, using 1.25 quarts of water per pound of grain. I'd use 167 degree water for the strike water, unless your grains are really cold like from the basement. So, I'd mash in with 12.5 quarts, and then draw off those runnings, and batch sparge with 3 gallons of water at 170 degrees.

If you do decide on a protein rest anyway, I'd do a really thick mash at that point. Then, infuse enough hot water to get you to the 153 mark. Make sure you don't go over 1.5 quarts per pound total in both infusions.

I wouldn't use any top up water- you'd be "diluting" your beer. I'd just split that boil, and use two water baths, if you don't have another way to chill the wort.

Thanks for the advice. I will let you know how it turns out.
 
I agree with yooper 100%. The protein rest thing is an over complication for no net gain. The sprinkling thing sounds good in theory, but for this kind of operation, a batch sparge is the best tool for the job IMHO. Start simple, work up from there.
 
I agree with yooper 100%. The protein rest thing is an over complication for no net gain. The sprinkling thing sounds good in theory, but for this kind of operation, a batch sparge is the best tool for the job IMHO. Start simple, work up from there.

I don't follow. Are you suggesting that I teabag the grains after steeping for an hour?
 
Well, it's more like dropping the grainbag in the sparge water and you can dunk it up and down if you like but if you can open the bag, clip it to the walls of your pot and stir it really well, you'll extract the most sugar.
 
Well, it's more like dropping the grainbag in the sparge water and you can dunk it up and down if you like but if you can open the bag, clip it to the walls of your pot and stir it really well, you'll extract the most sugar.

That would work well. You can pull the grain bag out of the mash, and then stick the grain bag in the pot of sparge water, just as Bobby explains. (See Deathbrewer's tutorials for pictures). Probably just as efficient as the sprinkling method, and a bit easier to manage.

I'd suggest keeping some extract on hand, just in case the efficiency is low the first time, so you can add it later if you need to bring up the OG.
 
If you don't have a wort chiller, I would split the wort across two pots and boil each for 60 minutes; then move both pots to a bath tub half full of cool water. Change out the water after 15 minutes, and after one hour dump both pots into your fermenter. Good to go. That will chill your brew quickly enough you will get a good cold break, and you won't have to worry about measuring temps etc. if you just let it sit for awhile.
 
If you don't have a wort chiller, I would split the wort across two pots and boil each for 60 minutes; then move both pots to a bath tub half full of cool water. Change out the water after 15 minutes, and after one hour dump both pots into your fermenter. Good to go. That will chill your brew quickly enough you will get a good cold break, and you won't have to worry about measuring temps etc. if you just let it sit for awhile.

But he doesn't even want to split mashing and sparging into two pots.
 
I broke down and spent some money.

IMG_08521.JPG

10 gallon cooler with false bottom and plumbing.
 
Well, it's more like dropping the grainbag in the sparge water and you can dunk it up and down if you like but if you can open the bag, clip it to the walls of your pot and stir it really well, you'll extract the most sugar.

I was under the assumption that after stirring to remove any dry spots that you should not disturb the grain bed. Otherwise Your running will not be as clear.
 
I was under the assumption that after stirring to remove any dry spots that you should not disturb the grain bed. Otherwise Your running will not be as clear.

I'll respond to this post first. Again you are confusing things a bit. There is no way to do deathbrewer's method without disturbing the grain bed BUT there is no such thing really as a grain bed when referring to brew in a bag. But you made this part of the conversation moot with:
 
I broke down and spent some money.

IMG_08521.JPG

10 gallon cooler with false bottom and plumbing.


This VERY wise purchase. Awesome! You are all set to do AG now as long as you have an HLT and a separate 30-60Qt brew kettle. Brush up on the math. Calibrate your thermometer. Find the chart on how to adjust your hydro for hot temps. The most useful bit of that is to know that 155 degrees adds .020 to the graviity reading.
 
Here is the recipe that I plan to brew. I changed my mind against using the 2-row. What category would something like this fall into.

Vienna Fuggel
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

General
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Category: Specialty Beer
Subcategory: Specialty Beer
Recipe Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5 gal.
Volume Boiled: 6 gal.
Mash Efficiency: 72 %
Total Grain/Extract: 10.00 lbs.
Total Hops: 1.0 oz.
Calories (12 fl. oz.): 187.5
Cost to Brew: $22.50 (USD)
Cost per Bottle (12 fl. oz.): $0.42 (USD)

Ingredients
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
10 lbs. American Vienna
1 oz. Fuggle (Whole, 4.9 %AA) boiled 75 minutes.
Yeast: Danstar Nottingham

Notes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Vital Statistics
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original Gravity: 1.047
Terminal Gravity: 1.009
Color: 8.00 SRM
Bitterness: 22.7 IBU
Alcohol (%volume): 5.0 %
 

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