Brew Sculptures help!

There have been plenty of threads on this stuff and I've seen just about everyone's setup out there from the Pol's home depot metal shelving system to the Brutus, but I just can't get my head around a few things.

First, I'll start by saying that I've done 4 all grain brews so far using a keggle for both heating my water and boiling wort (I use a bucket to collect runnings, then dump into the kettle). My MLT has been a 48qt cooler with braid. Overall the simplicity of this setup is just fine for both 5 and 10 gallon batches.

The catch is that I have access to another 3 kegs and I've got a bit of brewstand envy. I'm looking for feedback from folks who made the leap to 3-keg systems HLT, MLT, BK.

1. Did it simplify your brewing or complicate it.
2. What would you do differently?
3. Pros/cons of single, 2-tier, or pure gravity 3 tier setups?
4. Isn't cleaning out a keg based MLT hard work?

I'm thinking that these systems present the most benefit for fly sparging and step mashing capabilities.

Hey Bobby M,
I've got a 1500 from morebeer that I bought about 6 years ago. It uses a pump and I have the ability to do what is essentially at HERMS type of system off it. I bought it when I decided I wanted to go AG. I had done a dozen or so extract, partial mash and mini mash brews and decided that if I was going to invest the time to this hobby I wanted to do it as easily as possible. I'm not super handy and don't have the time or patient to build a system so, I just plopped down the money and dealt with the SWMBO's wrath when she saw the bill. To answer your questions the best I can:

1. Well AG is more complicated than extract or PM, but not far off from a MM. But that was what I was wanting. I do feel that the setup simplifies a lot of things. I can heat my strike water in the MLT and don't have to transfer (read: burn myself) which is much easier. Since all three kettles have burners, I will heat the strike water and the HLT at the same time. This makes it easy when the sparge comes up as my sparge liquor is at temp or close to it (I can always heat it a little if need be). So overall, I think it makes things a little more efficient than say a cooler system where I would need to heat water in one vessel and then move it somewhere else.
2. I would have splurged for one of the bigger systems, probably the 2050 or 2100. The tippy dump tun idea is a great one. Ever try to lift and dump 25 pounds of grain that is now like 60 pounds that its wet and hot? Not much fun. Also, 10 gallons goes pretty darn fast around here. Doing 15 or 20 gallons would mean I would only need to brew once a month or so, as opposed to every two weeks. Also, the bigger systems have automation setups that would be nice.
3. Using a two or one tier system, I think is easier than a pure 3 tier gravity fed system. I still have to use a step stool to dough in my grains and stir my mash. Or check the water level or do anything else in the MLT. I can't imagine how high up I would have to be to work on a gravity fed 3 tier job. I would have to brew outside the garage for sure. A pump is not a bad thing and sure does make life a lot easier. I use my pump to vorlauf at the end of the mash as well as move my sparge water up to the MLT. Those are the only times I need it.
4. My MLT is a stainless kettle and not a keggle. It has a welded in therm and a removable false bottom. The only ***** about cleaning it is lifting it off the stand to dump it. Once you dump it, cleaning is fairly easy. I'll hose it out and pull the false bottom out. I put it back on the stand and fill it 1/3 of the way up with some PBW. Heat the water and scrub. Drain the soapy water into the kettle, pull it down and rinse. Then I clean the kettle with the same soapy water. Pretty easy, but a job I do the day after brew day.

The system works pretty well and I have the ability to step mash or do decoctions easily( though I never do). I fly sparge and tonight I hit 92% efficiency (or 80% depending on measurements, see the thread I'm about to start).

Bobby,
Mine is a simple 3 tier system made up of 3 keggles with a burner under each. I am getting ready to upgrade my brew kettle to a 20 gal pot for 15 gal boils.

I like the simplicity of using gravity to do the work for you. I do use a pump after the boil to pump thru my plate chiller but other than that gravity does it all, all I have to do is regulate my sparge water with the outflow of wort. I also just added the burner under the MLT, before I just heated strike water in the HLT and then would put some that hot water in the MLT to preheat it. Once it was preheated I would dump it to a bucket and use it afterwards for cleaning.
And yes I use a small step ladder to dough in but thats no big deal. Water is added to the HLT thru a water filter an a PVC elbow that delivers the water into the HLT.
Cleaning is not that bad but the MLT can get heavy if I do a large grain bill, just part of the game.
You will just need to get the info from many of the great brewers here and put together a system that will work for you.

Bobby_M said:

1. Did it simplify your brewing or complicate it..

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The process is the same until you start using pumps and HERMS, etc. The brewing experience has become much easier. How could it be any more complicated/stressful than the setup you're using now?

Bobby_M said:

2. What would you do differently?

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I wouldn't do anything different. I'll eventually add a pump and may fiddle with HERMS, but I really like the setup I've got.

Bobby_M said:

3. Pros/cons of single, 2-tier, or pure gravity 3 tier setup?

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C'mon, you know the answers here. 3-tier = gravity = simplicity. 1- and 2- tier systems = pumps = easier access = more possibilities for automation

Bobby_M said:

4. Isn't cleaning out a keg based MLT hard work?

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Not any harder than cleaning a cooler MLT.

Bobby_M said:

I'm thinking that these systems present the most benefit for fly sparging and step mashing capabilities.

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I don't know that it really makes any difference for fly vs batch sparging. Having a keg MLT over a burner makes direct-fire steps simple, and if you add HERMS, they're also easy.

I say go for it! If I had experience using a real brew stand early on, I wouldn't have waited so long to build mine.

I posted a picture in my gallery ( I still dont really know how to post picts in the thread) Ya Im an idiot..... anyway I posted a pict of my system its a 3 kettle system that gravity feeds everything to a grant and I can pump out of there anywhere in the system. This allows me to be able to have 2 batches of brew going at the same time ( which I do sucsessfully) and only adding about 2 hours to the brew day. It has a tippy tun and cleaning is a snap because you can isolate half the system for cleaning while your still boiling your last batch. works great IMO
Good luck
JJ

jaybird said:

I posted a picture in my gallery ( I still dont really know how to post picts in the thread) Ya Im an idiot..... anyway I posted a pict of my system its a 3 kettle system that gravity feeds everything to a grant and I can pump out of there anywhere in the system. This allows me to be able to have 2 batches of brew going at the same time ( which I do sucsessfully) and only adding about 2 hours to the brew day. It has a tippy tun and cleaning is a snap because you can isolate half the system for cleaning while your still boiling your last batch. works great IMO
Good luck
JJ

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Mine is a home made HERMS, using 3 keggles. My HLT has a 50' coil of 3/8 copper as a heat exchanger and uses 2 March pumps. So far so good. I learn something new everytime I brew. It's always changing.

If you have the time, research and figure out what you want and then build it.

I really appreciate all the replies. I think I want to go with a single or two tier so I don't have to climb ladders to stir the mash. I can see saving a bit of foot-print by going vertical, but I also think an inline stand tucks away against a wall nicely too.

I'm also struggling with giving up my current process because it's about as simple as all grain gets. For one thing, batch sparging doesn't require a dedicated HLT. I use my keggle to heat both the mash and sparge water. I simply collect my runnings into an ale pail that has gallon tick marks on the side. It's a nice way to measure my volume without putting a sight tube in the kettle. This only requires a keggle and cooler MLT (not counting the ale pale, but this is portable and not part of the "sculpture". I'm not trying to discredit anyone's system but I'm just trying to work through the pros and cons.

I suspect that hauling a cooler MLT out to the garbage can is easier than a keg based MLT because the keg adds 30 lbs empty and the cooler is maybe 5 pounds.

I also want to make sure I understand how a HERMs works.
The coil is installed in the HLT. You fill the HLT with your total water volume needed for both mash and sparge and fire it up. Once it reaches your strike temp, you move your strike water into the MLT (which does not have a burner installed). Dough in. Here's the part I don't understand fully. Do you regulate your mash temp by constantly circulating through the HERMS coil and applying heat to the HLT when necessary or do you continue heating the HLT water up to sparge temp and then only turning on the pump when you need heat on the MLT? I suspect there is some benefit to always circulating the mash for even temps, but then you'd need a way to divert some/all of the mash liquor through the coil when necessary. Wow, lots of typing but I think I'm getting somewhere.

Does anyone run a single tier HERMS using a single pump?

I run a two tier with a single pump. You can check it out here: http://www.mybrewery.shutterfly.com/action/
I direct fire my kettle and recirculate my mash.

How I use my HERMS:

I have a burner under my MT, I heat my measured strike water to my calculated strike temp. At the same time I heat my HLT to around 3 to 5 degrees above my mash temp. Once my MT is at strike temp, I shut off the burner under the MT & I stir in my grain and let it settle. This gives me time to watch the temp stabilize. I have a copper manifold I set on top of my grain bed, this is where the wort is distributed on top of the grain after being pumped through the HERMS coil. I throttle the amount of wort pumped through the HERMS coil to control the flow and MT temp. I constantly recirculate the wort.

When I get ready to begin my sparge, I stop the circulation and open up the burner under the HLT to bring the water to sparge temp. I then slowly pump wort out of the MT into the BK and slowly replace it with sparge water from the HLT. I continue this until I reach my desired boil volume.

Hey Bobby.....starting brewing about a year ago and would like to mention that Ive enjoyed your youtube viewings. Im coming to the point of expanding from 5 to 10 gal batches and want to build a sculpture....thinkin it will be a single tier...like the idea of having the mash tun tilt for dumping spent grains. Also noticed all the propane cylinders in the background....absolutly make a hookup to a mian line from the house. I use air compressor hose and fittings to hook up and disconnect gas lines for my turkey fryer,should work for the sculpture and if you travel you can still use a tank. just my thought,hope it helps a little.

I have no propane. That was someone else's pic I think. The sculpture I've built is linked in my sig.

stupid old threadz

Bobby_M said:

1. Did it simplify your brewing or complicate it.
2. What would you do differently?
3. Pros/cons of single, 2-tier, or pure gravity 3 tier setups?
4. Isn't cleaning out a keg based MLT hard work?

Click to expand...

1. Yes, it did both. My system did simplify my process. I no longer concern myself with gravity fed lauters, run-off clarity, system set-up and storage, and temp maintenenace. But, it did also complicate my process by adding pieces to maintain (pump and hoses, etc..)

2. I'd buy a system out of the box. While I essentially do have a psuedo RIMS 3 keg, single tier I still want a Brew-Magic.

3. Single tier, needs a pump. 2 and 3 tier needs vertical real estate.

4. Nope! A hose and a brush is all it takes. Cleanup is actually easier now, IMO. I just lay the keg on it's side and blast it with the hose. Use the brush for the bits that are stubborn. There really isn;t any reason why the keg would be harder to clean than the cooler, IMO.

Heh, you guys know this thread is over a year old right? I'm rocking this right now:

What a piece of

... hey that's really nice!

<a-hole> When you gonna polish those other kegs? </a-hole>

Well since we've raised this thread from the dead (zombie thread!)...

Bobby_M, now that you have a year or so under your belt with your setup, how would you answer your own original questions:

Bobby_M said:

1. Did it simplify your brewing or complicate it.
2. What would you do differently?
3. Pros/cons of single, 2-tier, or pure gravity 3 tier setups?
4. Isn't cleaning out a keg based MLT hard work?

Click to expand...

For clarity, I only have 4 batches on the sytem (2 of which used the keg MLT, one of which used a full false bottom). It took a year to get it together (pathetic).

I'd say....
1. Did it simplify your brewing or complicate it.
Intially I felt that pumping liquids was a pain since you really have to be careful not to airlock the pump at the end of draining. It's a learning curve like anything else. Pouring liquids might be simple, but it's labor intensive and dangerous. Pumping takes longer and requires some attention, but it's safer and less labor intensive.

2. What would you do differently?
Nothing so far other than going directly to silicone tubing instead of reinforced vinyle (I still have to order some).

3. Pros/cons of single, 2-tier, or pure gravity 3 tier setups?
3 Tier requires two pumps to fly sparge. I may have gone with 2 tier to be able to fly with only one pump. I guess that's a potential thing I'd change. Having the HLT up a little higher isn't that bad of an idea and it would save a $130 pump purchase.

4. Isn't cleaning out a keg based MLT hard work?
Yes, so far it is harder than the cooler based MLT. I haven't rigged the tippy dump just yet so I do have to scoop out the grain, remove the false bottom and drag it out to the lawn for a hose down.

So tippy dump seems to be kinda a hot topic in this thread?

98EXL said:

So tippy dump seems to be kinda a hot topic in this thread?

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I gave it a lot of thought and decided not to do it at this point. Scooping's a pain, but like other clean-up drudgery, you get used to it.

Bobby_M said:

For clarity, I only have 4 batches on the sytem (2 of which used the keg MLT, one of which used a full false bottom). It took a year to get it together (pathetic).

3. Pros/cons of single, 2-tier, or pure gravity 3 tier setups?
3 Tier requires two pumps to fly sparge. I may have gone with 2 tier to be able to fly with only one pump. I guess that's a potential thing I'd change. Having the HLT up a little higher isn't that bad of an idea and it would save a $130 pump purchase.

Click to expand...

For me, having two pumps is a big advantage. Temperature accuracy and chilling/whirlpool procedures are greatly enhanced. I love having two pumps.

Nice rig btw.

I think climbing up to do anything is dangerous so I believe a ground level system is the way to go. If you are fly sparging then 2 pumps are necessary. Yes you could use a pitcher to transfer sparge water but ease of use is the point of making a brew sculpture anyway.

Bobby, so when are you going to shine up those other two keggles?

I have many loose ends on this rig that I need to tie up before I'm "done".

Convert to silicone tubing.
Etch in the calibration marks on the sight glass protecting tubes.
Shine up two more kegs (I have all the compounds and wheels already).
Work on getting the burners to burn cleaner.
Attach MLT and BK to the tippy dump cradles.
Find a better MLT insulation that can take direct heat.

Bobby_M said:

Find a better MLT insulation that can take direct heat.

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Did you try reflectix? I think several guys who direct fire their MLT have used it with good results.

Bobby_M said:

I have many loose ends on this rig that I need to tie up before I'm "done".

Convert to silicone tubing.
Etch in the calibration marks on the sight glass protecting tubes.
Shine up two more kegs (I have all the compounds and wheels already).
Work on getting the burners to burn cleaner.
Attach MLT and BK to the tippy dump cradles.
Find a better MLT insulation that can take direct heat.

Click to expand...

Heads up on the silicone hoses when you are sizing: If the length of tubing coming off the top of your pump is too long, the hose will kink at the fitting when it heats up. You need to either have rests for them or cut them just to fit, which doesn't work for lid switching or variable height mash returns. Great product though.

Bobby_M said:

I'm looking for feedback from folks who made the leap to 3-keg systems HLT, MLT, BK.

1. Did it simplify your brewing or complicate it......

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I'm getting in late on this but I thought it worth mentioning. I've been an all grain brewer for many years and am very comfortable with my HERMS and have always felt that it, while somewhat complex, was a perfect balance between performance and simplicity, at least for me. The other weekend, I brewed an extract beer for the first time in years. Didn't have to drag out the mashing apparatus, just a kettle and my chiller. No sweat right? What a disaster. I was lost the entire day. I couldn't get into a rhythm and seemed to wander around aimlessly wondering what to do next, then forgetting something and having to scramble around. In the end, it probably took just as long as an all grain batch with all the mistakes I made and the fixes I had to do.

All this in saying - my brewing isn't more complicated until you ask me to do something out of my normal routine. My all-grain system is not complicated at all, because I've brewed on it about a hundred times. But change something on me, and hell yes it's complicated - even when I don't use 80% of the system. Just design your system well, put in the things that make sense, then brew often and get over the hump on the learning curve. Me? I think it will be a while before I try extract brewing again, it's just too complicated.....:cross:

Prosit!

Lil' Sparky said:

Did you try reflectix? I think several guys who direct fire their MLT have used it with good results.

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Yeah, I have two layers setup for use on the MLT but it won't take even a tiny bit of direct heat. I can't hold my hand near the keg when I have the flame on so I can imagine why the reflectix just starts melting. It is bubble wrap afterall. However, if I overshoot my strike by about 3F, kill the heat, then wrap the reflectix around it, I only lose 1.5F in 60 mintues....IN THE SUMMER! We'll have to see what the damage is in the winter but I suppose removing it for a 5 minute reheat isn't the end of the world.

korndog said:

Heads up on the silicone hoses when you are sizing: If the length of tubing coming off the top of your pump is too long, the hose will kink at the fitting when it heats up. You need to either have rests for them or cut them just to fit, which doesn't work for lid switching or variable height mash returns. Great product though.

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How thick is the wall of the stuff you used? I was thinking about getting 1/8" wall. I know some folks had trouble with the 1/16" kinking and crushing.

Get the thick-wall stuff. AHS has it. It still kinks, but only if you're really trying to bend it hard around a corner.

Bobby_M said:

How thick is the wall of the stuff you used? I was thinking about getting 1/8" wall. I know some folks had trouble with the 1/16" kinking and crushing.

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I happen to be boiling right now. Here is the only place I have problems. The stuff I have is from B3 which is advertised as 1/4" wall. I haven't miced it, but I will.

I bought my silicone tubing from B3 too, KD. I can't see where they mention the wall thickness anywhere. I just measured it though, and it is definitely 1/8th inch wall thickness, not 1/4 inch.

3/16th wall and 1/4 inch wall silicone tubing is available. I've found places that sell it mostly for biotech and medical applications, but they don't sell retail and don't advertise the costs on their web sites. smallparts.com sells the 1/2 inch ID 3/16th inch wall silicone tubing for $1368 for 100 feet, which is $13.68 per foot. Kinda pricey. There are probably cheaper sources out there, but I haven't spent much time looking. I think the 1/8th inch wall tubing that B3 sells is good enough for me.

billtzk said:

I bought my silicone tubing from B3 too, KD. I can't see where they mention the wall thickness anywhere. I just measured it though, and it is definitely 1/8th inch wall thickness, not 1/4 inch.

3/16th wall and 1/4 inch wall silicone tubing is available. I've found places that sell it mostly for biotech and medical applications, but they don't sell retail and don't advertise the costs on their web sites. smallparts.com sells the 1/2 inch ID 3/16th inch wall silicone tubing for $1368 for 100 feet, which is $13.68 per foot. Kinda pricey. There are probably cheaper sources out there, but I haven't spent much time looking. I think the 1/8th inch wall tubing that B3 sells is good enough for me.

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Yes, I agree it's perfectly fine. I just have to be aware of this one area. No big deal though. I just hang them on the thermo's.

Maybe running the tube through plastic electrical wire conduit or a long length of continuous spring with an ID of about an inch would keep the tubing from kinking.

billtzk said:

Maybe running the tube through plastic electrical wire conduit or a long length of continuous spring with an ID of about an inch would keep the tubing from kinking.

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I like the spring idea. I might give that a shot if it starts to bother me more.

Thanks Billtzk.