The same questions day after day...

snyklez said:

As a n00b I can say, I have a lot of dumb questions but usually I can find the answer by reading Palmer or looking through the forums. The search is successful intermittently (I've searched for the meaning of every way possible and still don't know what it means) but I can usually go to the a specific forum and peruse till I find an answer. I think a lot of it is that the newer folks have the most questions and are less likely to know how to navigate the site, so it's a double whammy. I only figured out what a sticky was after I asked a dumb bottling question and Revvy pointed me in the direction of his all inclusive bottling procedure thread. I guess my main point is to express my thanks for the patience you more experienced brewers have when dealing with us newer folks and our seemingly obvious questions.

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This is where a lot of the repeat questions might be coming from. I mainly use the android app for homebrewtalk. The search blows, the stickies are on a secondary tab that is easy to overlook, and and look like : ban : and : mug :.

It is awesome being able to ask/answer questions from my phone but the app could use some polishing. I still log on to the main site about once a week to search for things but typically I am stuck either using Google and hoping these forums pop up as a search result or trudging through lots of unrelated threads trying to find what I want.

osagedr said:

I only look very rarely at the beginners' forum anymore. The threads are too basic and repeated ad nauseum. Kudos to those who take the time to respond over there.

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This brings up an excellent point though.

I've noticed in most of the specialized topics, "extract", "all grain", "kegging" that I may get 1 or zero responses to my questions even though that one response usually seems specialized.

However, I've started defaulting (when it's not too outrageous) to simply posting in Beginner's forum. The reason is that there's far more people browsing and posting to that and thus I can get more responses. Maybe some aren't accurate but someone steps in to correct others and give concise responses.


Anyone else notice this?

Airborneguy said:

I hate to admit this, but I gave up answering many of the daily questions because of this. We're not allowed to suggest using the search, and I sort of understand why, but it does get tedious to answer the same questions over and over. eventually, most of the knowledgeable posters that you'll see routinely answering these questions give up. There's only one person who seems to have the patience of a saint who just keeps going and going...

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Please help me with the Search???

I can't find it?

Is it because I am not a Premium Member?

There is a Google Search Bar in the top left corner but nothing is ever returned when I put stuff there... I mean I tried it with simple stuff like IPA and Mash Tun... nothing returned... I have found it easier to go to Yahoo, type my question there and select the ones that point to Homebrew talk...

I then look at the related posts on the bottom (very helpful).

Hell,, feel free to send directly to me as I am most confused... and I do computer crap for a living... and one would assume I could figure this out...

DPB

kaconga said:

This is where a lot of the repeat questions might be coming from. I mainly use the android app for homebrewtalk. The search blows, the stickies are on a secondary tab that is easy to overlook, and and look like : ban : and : mug :.

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I agree, I think the fact that I'm using the iPhone app may also be contributing to some of the confusion. But it is what it is, I'm just thankful it's here. Side note; is etc supposed to show up with a graphic or something? Is that why I'm not getting it? What the hell does it all mean!?!? Ha ha.

snyklez said:

Side note; is etc supposed to show up with a graphic or something? Is that why I'm not getting it? What the hell does it all mean!?!? Ha ha.

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Yeah. Log in to the main site with a real browser and you will see the and and other emoticons. They are pretty funny and definitely help you get the poster's intent of the post. Once you see what they look like you can mentally "fill them in" when using the app. It helps avoid miscommunication.

And I do agree with everyone who pointed out that there is a cycle at play. New brewer asks beginner questions, then graduates to answering them, and then starts ignoring those threads altogether. But as long as new folks keep coming to the site, the cycle will continue.

Sometimes I still answer or even post stuff in the Beginner forum just because I figure the responses will mostly be of interest to new brewers... Or I am bored and figure, "hey why not take a few minutes of spare down time to help a guy out?"

DPBISME said:

Please help me with the Search???

I can't find it?

Is it because I am not a Premium Member?

There is a Google Search Bar in the top left corner but nothing is ever returned when I put stuff there... I mean I tried it with simple stuff like IPA and Mash Tun... nothing returned... I have found it easier to go to Yahoo, type my question there and select the ones that point to Homebrew talk...

I then look at the related posts on the bottom (very helpful).

Hell,, feel free to send directly to me as I am most confused... and I do computer crap for a living... and one would assume I could figure this out...

DPB

Click to expand...

Can't say if it works for regular people, but it works for me. Drop down the menu and enter your search terms in the Google option and hit enter. I did Mash Tun and got many many results. If this doesn't work there is a forum for posting problems, or you can PM TX directly for help.

Homercidal said:

Can't say if it works for regular people, but it works for me. Drop down the menu and enter your search terms in the Google option and hit enter. I did Mash Tun and got many many results. If this doesn't work there is a forum for posting problems, or you can PM TX directly for help.

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Well I do do this from my GOV-MENt job... (YOUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

So maybe I am being blocked.

Don't worry I can't stand it and am just working to pay off my heat pump and then I plan on becoming a productive citizen again.

DPB

I have to say I respectfully disagree with the OP. While I know it's a pain to see the same questions over and over, especially the really simple ones what could we post here if we never repeated ourselves? There is veery little abou brewing that has not been covered at some time on this site. Also, if I have a question there is something gratifying and affirming about having someone more capable and experienced answer back. It makes me feel I am participating in a community rather than just looking things up online. For that matter you can get all these questions answered in books or other locations so why even have this forum at all? It's so when I or someone like me feels lost or overwhelmed I get a reply from a real person and I know someones got my back.

watersr said:

I have to say I respectfully disagree with the OP. While I know it's a pain to see the same questions over and over, especially the really simple ones what could we post here if we never repeated ourselves? There is veery little abou brewing that has not been covered at some time on this site. Also, if I have a question there is something gratifying and affirming about having someone more capable and experienced answer back. It makes me feel I am participating in a community rather than just looking things up online. For that matter you can get all these questions answered in books or other locations so why even have this forum at all? It's so when I or someone like me feels lost or overwhelmed I get a reply from a real person and I know someones got my back.

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Agreed... I mean when the post is two years old I think you can start a new conversation... if for no other reason that you don't have tpo go through PAGES and PAGES of old comments...

So if it is something you are not interested in... do post and get involved... let someone else pick up the slack... I mean I don't like watching the same crap on TV all of the time.. why would this be any different...

DPBISME said:

Agreed... I mean when the post is two years old I think you can start a new conversation... if for no other reason that you don't have tpo go through PAGES and PAGES of old comments...

So if it is something you are not interested in... do post and get involved... let someone else pick up the slack... I mean I don't like watching the same crap on TV all of the time.. why would this be any different...

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You guys are both right. The psychology of communities is pretty simple.

1% of users make up 90% of the conversations. Most of them are considered "super users" and respond to almost every thread. If a thread has 10 posts, the first is probably a new user with 9 other posts being "regulars" and one might be another casual / new user as well.

Super Users have a very limited life cycle meaning they "die out" per se and graduate to either being lurkers or only engaging with other super users. Sort of like "burn out" for people who have high stress jobs.

So, there needs to be always a churn of new users that graduate and then go away while some stay on for a long long time sharing their wisdom with others. If there were no "n00bs", there would be no super uses. the saying that we were all newborns at once point applies.

So anyway, you guys are right, I think my only point that is still worth pointing out is that I'm surprised that more users don't use search functions or google before posting. Then again, there are thousands of users on this board. Perhaps there are FAR more people like me that are searching, finding an acceptable answer and those people we don't see so it seems like everyone defaults to posting when really a small number post and a majority do search...something to think about for sure.

Good argument though!

adamjackson said:

So anyway, you guys are right, I think my only point that is still worth pointing out is that I'm surprised that more users don't use search functions or google before posting. Then again, there are thousands of users on this board. Perhaps there are FAR more people like me that are searching, finding an acceptable answer and those people we don't see so it seems like everyone defaults to posting when really a small number post and a majority do search...something to think about for sure.

Good argument though!

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I'm brand new here and to the hobby, don't even have a home brew to relax and enjoy while I'm trying to calm any panic I get. Your first post here taught me that there is a wiki, I'll probably spend the rest of my day here at work reading it, haha. Thanks for that first post or who knows how long until I found that wiki.

Searching sometimes is frustrating on forums. Here it's insane with the large number of threads, just tons of information, and finding what I'm looking for, well, kind of sucks a bit. I do find some things, others...no. I just searched for awhile about keezers and ended up posting in one from several weeks ago as I really wasn't finding what I was looking for, I hope I get some replys. I think I got most of what I was looking for from a search, but not everything.

Do ya think I'd have 25,000 posts if people used the wiki? Seriously, "do a search" or "read the wiki" isn't going to get people involved in the hobby of the forum. They need to feel as though they are welcome. I tend to answer beginners' questions for that reason. There are occasional people who post a noob question and get royally bent because the answers they get aren't what they want.

Examples:
How do I make 43% ABV beer.
Or I threw together this recipe without having done any research. It's great! Right? RIGHT!?

And the classic:

I made this beer and I want to enter it in a competition, but it doesn't remotely meet any style guide category. So, what should I call it?

david_42 said:

Examples:
How do I make 43% ABV beer.
Or I threw together this recipe without having done any research. It's great! Right? RIGHT!?

And the classic:

I made this beer and I want to enter it in a competition, but it doesn't remotely meet any style guide category. So, what should I call it?

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well anywhere you go there will be ignorant people who muck up the works by posting truly rediculous questions or by being belligerent. You just have to smile and shine it on. The vast majority of newbies are truly interested in the hobby and have the potential to contribute to the hobby and this forum if they are given the help and support they need. How about instead of "do a search, *******" we try "here's an answer to your question and BTW there's a great search feature that might save you some time, here's how to use it". If you don't have time to answer simple questions that's cool too, just ignore them.

I've been getting more and more frustrated at people creating threads to ask questions that have been discussed on HBT thoroughly. It's like they don't even try to search for it. It used to not bother me, but now I'm just avoiding those threads or mentioning the search function when I do answer the question.

Get the hell over it. If you don't like the questions asked dont open the thread or respond. 50% of what I've googled in regards to brewing contradicts the next 50% of what I read further, even members of this board argue over techniques and ingredients. Its not as cut and dry as 'search google'

Sometimes the same question reveals a new perspective not found in the original 87-page thread.

Got to agree with Grathan! And this is a forum and a great one at that. New brewers come here and ask questions. Heck, I've got some basics down and am now dwelling into water chemistry. I've done some research which totally confused me and then came back to HBT for help. The questions I asked might be FNG questions but none of the replies were obnoxious nor did anybody tell me to do a search before asking.

I like this place. I'll answer a person's question, give them a link for better help and do just whatever I can. That is how I was treated when I first found this site and started asking questions, even if they had been asked a million times before. I'll do whatever it takes to help a fellow brewer out. It's just the right thing to do.

my few pesos.

I only get frustrated when there is another thread that is recent, like within the same week. I'm not a jerk about it, but I have mentioned that a quick search would reveal the thread that contains their answers. I give them the link to the thread and wish them luck in their search for answers. I realize that I may frequent the forums more than other people and they may just miss the thread.

So are we saying that we should not recommend searching before creating threads? I really want to help other brewers when I can, but sometimes a search gives them the simple answer they are searching for. The last thing I want to do is be rude to people looking for help, and if recommending a search before creating a thread is rude, then I will refrain in the future.

mike20793 said:

I only get frustrated when there is another thread that is recent, like within the same week. I'm not a jerk about it, but I have mentioned that a quick search would reveal the thread that contains their answers. I give them the link to the thread and wish them luck in their search for answers. I realize that I may frequent the forums more than other people and they may just miss the thread.

So are we saying that we should not recommend searching before creating threads? I really want to help other brewers when I can, but sometimes a search gives them the simple answer they are searching for. The last thing I want to do is be rude to people looking for help, and if recommending a search before creating a thread is rude, then I will refrain in the future.

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The great thing is that it's not even an issue of what we consider rude. The rules are pretty clear on it.

"13. No use of "Google it", or "Try Searching". If a question has been answered before, answer it again or with nicety provide a link rather than copying/pasting content from elsewhere on the forum. Berating or poking fun at "noobs" for not searching will not be allowed."

At the same time:

"6. Please use the search tool to the best of your ability."

So as far as I'm concerned (which, admittedly, counts for very little ), if all you have to say is "search", then don't bother. However, if you want to answer the question or provide a link, and also say something like "this was the first result I searched for x", then i think that's totally fine. That approach both answers the question and helps encourage the poster to consider searching the next time.

Perhaps some people would rather get an answer from another human being, rather than just "googling it". And as mentioned above, doing your own research on this site if through other search engines can give you completely opposite and contradictory answers. Or, people are new and over-worried about every little thing like everybody was when they first started and need some reassurance that they aren't f***ing up their brew.

WHAT EVER!!!! nothing els to say, now we beat up on noobs, Have you tried surfing the web for answers with a phone? its a nightmare!!! And come on!.......we know you like it to answer those "tuff" Q's and feel like all superior and stuff!!!
You know what I dislike....people posting non-beer related **** on HBT!!!




( Im just joking, search a topic first, if you want! But this is a beer forum, not a moan about the forum, forum)

The beauty of this forum being as huge as it is... if answering those same questions starts to wear thin on you, stop answering them! There are plenty of other HBT'ers to pick up the slack. I used to answer n00b questions all the time, but now I just hang out and shoot the ****.

david_42 said:

Seriously, "do a search" or "read the wiki" isn't going to get people involved in the hobby of the forum. I tend to answer beginners' questions for that reason.

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Exactly, I do a lot of research on the site to get my answers mainly because i am lucky to get one response to any of my threads. if all i do is search the web then whats the point of being here.

One thing that is interesting is that "answers" do change over time. A year or so ago, someone could have posted about"how long do I secondary" and we would have given the stock answer of the 1-2-3 method, now people answer that sometimes a seondary isn't needed, or further discussion on it. has it been covered before? yes, but try searching for "time in secondary" and you get about a million results, most of which don't answer the question. I love brewing and talking about brewing, so I'll keep answering the questions, for now anyway.

mbauer013 said:

One thing that is interesting is that "answers" do change over time. A year or so ago, someone could have posted about"how long do I secondary" and we would have given the stock answer of the 1-2-3 method, now people answer that sometimes a seondary isn't needed, or further discussion on it. has it been covered before? yes, but try searching for "time in secondary" and you get about a million results, most of which don't answer the question. I love brewing and talking about brewing, so I'll keep answering the questions, for now anyway.

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It wasnt that long ago that mazers were still boiling their honey and posting youtube videos with step by step instructions for how long to do so...

Apple_Jacker said:

Perhaps some people would rather get an answer from another human being, rather than just "googling it". And as mentioned above, doing your own research on this site if through other search engines can give you completely opposite and contradictory answers. Or, people are new and over-worried about every little thing like everybody was when they first started and need some reassurance that they aren't f***ing up their brew.

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Same point I made earlier and still the best reason. This is a community, people want to feel connected to other brewers. If it was just about searching we could all quit posting now and let this be a self help site. I for one will from now on make it a point to answer as many questions as I can whether they have been asked before or not. There is a saying, the best way to learn something is to teach it. I don't have all the answers and I'm not really that experienced but if you're new and want an answer ask away, I'll do my best.

You could always respond briefly and cross link them to the relevant existing threads or stickies. Some people are selfish and lazy, some are uninitiated and some are genuinely unable to get an answer to their simple question. I try to take into account future readers of the post when providing responses.

My own opinion on the OP's question is that this is an online forum, not a data repository. Sure, there are lots of good threads with tons of good information, but a lot of that same information could just be found by searching online or reading books. The beauty of a forum is that its a community of like-minded individuals that can communicate with other users in real time to give answers/opinions/speculation regarding a poster's questions right then and there.

Additionally, as said before, some of the answers tend to change over time, as new knowledge becomes available and brewers experiment with different things. Also, some "answers" aren't really answers, but are opinions, and in some cases can simply be misinformation. Starting a new thread gives the poster an audience of all the other community members perusing the threads to see what they might be able to comment on, given their current knowledge base, and allows people to debate the topic in real time. In this process, you may get very different answers from previous threads on similar topics, either because more information has become available, the particular phrasing/context of the question made people think about it differently, and so on.

While I do use the search capabilities and do plenty of searching in other places, I come to HBT mainly for the real-time back and forth about topics I'm interested in and either have some knowledge base in or am looking to build a knowledge base in.

I know its irritating to have people ask the same question over and over, but replying with "use the search" is even more infuriating, because eventually the search returns nothing bit threads were the only responses are "use the search" posts and the actual answer is impossible to find.

I find it funny that the ones who post a snide "use the search" reply are the same one's saying things like "airlock activity means nothing." HBT is a public forum first. A place for personal exchange of information, thoughts and ideas. Second to that, it's become a great place for research if you choose to use it that way. An airlock is a gas valve first, but can be a useful tool for anyone willing to seal their fermenter, control temperatures and take environmental variables into consideration. It’s amusing that they don’t see the irony.

In either case, I think it’s a personality trait coming from someone who has the need to feel better than the poster rather than actually help.

>>I find it funny that the ones who post a snide "use the search" reply are the same one's saying things like "airlock activity means nothing."

I haven't noticed this, I think you are imagining it.
In fact I don't think the mods here allow "Use the Search Function" as a reply.


>.In either case, I think it’s a personality trait coming from someone who has the need to feel better than the poster rather than actually help.

I think it reflects badly on you that you are posting this comment. I have had great experiences here with people answering my questions, even if the answers are sometimes on a tangent (i.e. I have to do additional research).
You are no better than anyone else, so relax and have a few home brews.


No one has ever told me "Use the search". They may post a link or two, that answer my question in great detail, which to me is exactly what I am looking for.

Or if its and older thread, and they don't remember, they may say "look for a thread by XXX with the subject YYY from a few years ago. There is a long detailed discussion of what you are asking about"

I find its frequently the case that the subject I am interested in has been discussed, but I am using the wrong key words in a search. And a responder helps me out with the right key words.

ArcLight said:

I haven't noticed this, I think you are imagining it.

I think it reflects badly on you that you are posting this comment.

No one has ever told me "Use the search".

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A heads-up to everyone.

If it hasn't happened to ArcLight it didn't happen.

It was your imagination and if you mention anything, it will reflect badly on you.

ArcLight said:

You are no better than anyone else, so relax and have a few home brews.

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Just messin' with you.

The stupid $hit I do every day reminds me that I'm no better than anyone else,
but relaxing and having a homebrew is something I'm very good at.

Been following this thread from the beginning. Think I might have posted already but rereading it today I just want to say. For me, I'll answer repeat questions. There is nothing more demeaning to a person than to ask a legitimate question on a great forum like HBT and not be answered.

Sometimes you don't want to give the first answer in case you are wrong. I suppose that is responsible. But hey man, I'm not going to leave a noob in the dark if I can help him/her.

I often times go to the unanswered threads section and look for something I can reply to. Sometimes, I understand why they are not replied to. The questions (just my humble opinion) don't make any sense. You have to understand the question before you can answer.

But for me I'll answer the most basic question (if is understandable) if I know the answer. I haven't got burned out doing this and probably won't

adamjackson said:

I see Revvy a lot (mostly cause his avatar is easy to remember) and he does a lot of copy & paste of these REALLY great answers so that's cool of him.

----

I didn't know we weren't allowed to suggest searching. I get it's a turn off to new guys..I'm still new and I'd probably get offended if someone did it. I'm just wondering if I say, "Hey, here's a doc that goes over how to dry hop" if that would be acceptable?

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Technically copy and pasting is a rule violation as well...

13. No use of "Google it", or "Try Searching". If a question has been answered before, answer it again or with nicety provide a link rather than copying/pasting content from elsewhere on the forum. Berating or poking fun at "noobs" for not searching will not be allowed.

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I've pointed this out in the past (and the comment always gets deleted) because most of the copy and pasted rants get busted out because someone sees a certain keyword and doesn't finish reading the question...

Here is a good reason to use the search function - someone asked a fairly often repeated question about lack of head and poor retention. I found these two responses useful.


Yooper>>As far as the actual grains, I'm sure those beers have crystal malt and/or flaked wheat or flaked barley. That should be sufficient. But in oatmeal stout, sometimes too much oatmeal can kill head retention. The oils in the oats can make a wonderfully silky mouthfeel, but that can interfere with the head, so I add flaked barley to make up for it.

Denny>>http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques



This is good stuff, and and advertisement for why one should use the search function for finding responses to similar questions asked in the past. Maybe Denny and Yooper won't be around next time someone asks this question, and they wont learn about this. If you ask a question, you will probably get a response, but you may only get a partially correct, or even an incorrect response (such as happened in a recent thread I read).

What I suggested to Tex (the admin) was a sort of welcome page for members that explains the benefits of searching, with a couple of examples.
Its not that you wont get a response, its that you may miss out on great responses.


I see nothing wrong with fewer threads on an oft repeated question, provided the threads contain good information. The problem with constantly repeating the same question is there are many threads to read through, and it becomes tiresome to wade through all of them. Unlike some of the responders here, I see nothing wrong with fewer threads and responses, provided the information is here.

I come here to learn about things I don't know, when there are so many repeat questions, I tend to scan over the topics and skip most threads. I think others feel the same way. I do occasionally answer questions, but that's not my motivation in coming here.

If the newer members were shown how useful the search feature was (as part of the welcome message) they would probably get more benefit from this website and generate fewer repeat questions. And they could still ask questions if they didn't find what they were looking for, or didn't understand some nuance.