Preferred water treatment calculator

I just got my water report from ward labs so I started looking at the different calculators. I'm curious which one people have found that they prefer and why? A search for a topic like this didn't come up with anything. I would like to use whichever one is the simplest and idiot proof. Brewing is fun, messing with water calculations is not so fun.

I am a total chemistry washout, so I was not looking for something that required me to do a lot of atomic weight and combinatorial molecule calculations (*&%!#).

I caught on to the Brunwater spreadsheet, which was a bit of a learning curve, but it has worked out really well for me. I use it for every brew and it predicts mash pH very well and is a pretty straightforward guide to figuring out what mineral additions I need to get specific water profiles.

I got some really good assistance getting started from Matt Chrispen and now he's got a tutorial guide to the Brunwater spreadsheet on his blog http://accidentalis.com/brun-water-tutorials

Hope that helps!

I ran across that tutorial last night but didn't have time to watch it. I will try to check it out soon, thank you.

The best one is the one you develop yourself because to produce one that is any good you have to have a pretty deep understanding of the underlying science. Few have the interest, the time or the perseverance to do that.

I advise people to try at least three of the popular ones as some people wind up preferring one over the other based on simplicity, accuracy, user interface, breadth of information presented etc. Using more than one also allows one to see the extent of the disparity in mash pH prediction inherent in the different models used for malt acidity/alkalinity. Some choose the calculator they use based mostly on mash pH prediction accuracy.v

I've gone down the path of using Reverse Osmosis [RO] water and EZ Watercalculator, I've found this to be the quickest and easiest way to get to the water profiles I need to brew with. The RO water has no salts or minerals, chlorine or chloramine and all of the ppm counts default to zeros. After adjusting the pH using 88% lactic acid I'll add salts and minerals to lock in the buffering properties and to flavor the water according to the style of beer I'm planning to brew. It has worked out wonderfully for me and improved the quality of all my beers.

I switched to distilled water when I lived in ny and had real crappy well water. It looks like the water I have in Florida will be much better to deal with. The first thing I noticed is how far off the cities water report is from wards. I wouldn't trust any water report on a municipality website.

In case anyone is interested. Merritt Island FL. pH 8.4

Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 431

Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.72

Cations / Anions, me/L 5.6 / 5.7

ppm

Sodium, Na 73

Potassium, K 2

Calcium, Ca 32

Magnesium, Mg 9

Total Hardness, CaCO3 118

Nitrate, NO3-N 0.5 (SAFE)

Sulfate, SO4-S 32

Chloride, Cl 100

Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0

Bicarbonate, HCO3 49

Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 42

Total Phosphorus, P < 0.01

Total Iron, Fe < 0.01

"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

The best calculator is one that you can customize based upon your grains. For example, I mainly use Weyermann Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner, which gives a pH higher than the spreadsheets expect. So I change the inputs in the spreadsheet myself as needed. And I like to make my own smoked malt, which acidifies tremendously in the smoker -- again a manual input.

nyer said:

In case anyone is interested. Merritt Island FL. pH 8.4

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I am very interested in any recent Ward Labs reports for samples with pH 8.4 or higher. They had been bobbling the calculation of carbonate and bicarbonate (and thus anion content) for years and though they said they would put in the corrections I have never been absolutely sure that they did. These numbers are correct and so it appears that they have taken care of this.

SpeedYellow said:

The best calculator is one that you can customize based upon your grains. For example, I mainly use Weyermann Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner, which gives a pH higher than the spreadsheets expect.

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Yes. Here are the numbers for Weyermann's regular and floor malted Pils offereings. The first is the DI water mash pH (pHDI)adjusted to 20 °C. The next three numbers are coefficient a1, a2 and a3 which give the proton deficit at any other pH (at 20 °C). That deficit is:

R = a1*(pH - pHDI) + a2*(pH - pHDI)^2 + a3*(pH - pHDI)^3

Pneumatic 5.62 -40.69 14.821 -10.008
Floor 5.85 -31.299 3.869 -1.986

For a spreadsheet to accurately estimate mash pH it has to have this data. A spreadsheet that uses the same data for all Pilsner malts is doomed to failure and one that attempts to determine pHDI and the proton deficit from color is not likely to be terribly accurate either.

I have been playing around with bru n water this morning and if I'm correct, it looks like the only way to make my water desirable for brewing is with dilution. I tried almost every water profile listed and I cant get anything in range. Can somebody take a look at my water report above and give me an opinion?

Yeah, your sodium and Chloride levels are high enough that you're going to want to dilute.

In fact, they are high enough that you may be better just building from RO/DI.

I'm a huge nerd that enjoys the process, so I use 5 models before every mash. EZ, Bru'n, Kai (spreadsheet), and both web models on Brewers Friend. The color/pct roast version on BF should match Kai's spreadsheet model, although they are almost always very slightly different. I don't had data for every malt so I don't use AJs, though I would love to. Maybe someday maltsters will do analysis on each batch for us.

I view all these as hurricane spaghetti models. None of them use every input of the actual chemistry (so not a 'calculator' as some will call them) but rather use a reasonable set of data they view as predictive to accurately 'model' the system and provide a good guess. The assumption is that the diminishing returns and exponential effort of the rest of the data make it "good enough".

Aside from actually accounting for every proton (as AJ has shown to be tedious but effective), these models are quite good when used together. I will very VERY rarely get actual results outside he bounds of the 5 models. I generally make acid additions for the average of the models, skewing to one side based on experience of how they work with different kinds of grists.

GotPushrods said:

Aside from actually accounting for every proton (as AJ has shown to be tedious but effective),

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The other models count protons too. They just aren't aware that they do or don't call it proton counting. When they say that the pH for a given mash changes by x units for each unit change in RA they are simply incorporating the alkalinity proton deficit and the calcium reaction proton deficit into one. When they say the malt has a pH slope they are linearizing the characteristics of malt which they shouldn't really do. The new method is actually simpler than the old because it is based on real data, i.e. realistic models of the way the carbonate system behaves, realistic models of the added acids (be they strong or weak) and realistic models of the malt. Where realistic malt data (complete measurement set) is not available the new method falls back to what the older ones do: use data for the malt that seems closest.

GotPushrods said:

I will very VERY rarely get actual results outside he bounds of the 5 models.

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Good gracious I hope not!

I had hoped that my water would be good for brewing but it looks like once again I will have the pleasure of hauling gallon jugs of distilled water. I wonder what microbreweries are doing for water? I have several near me that are on the same city water that only admit to making water adjustments with salts.

nyer said:

I had hoped that my water would be good for brewing but it looks like once again I will have the pleasure of hauling gallon jugs of distilled water. I wonder what microbreweries are doing for water? I have several near me that are on the same city water that only admit to making water adjustments with salts.

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There are an incredible number of breweries that ignore their water conditions since there is that old myth: If the water tastes good, you can brew with it.

While you can create beer with that philosophy and sometimes its great beer, the truth is that there is a need to make some adjustments to any water source if you want to brew a wide variety of styles. Adding salts is one option, but its not likely to be suitable as the only adjustment for brewing.

I was at my local Walmart and I see they have a primo water dispenser and its supposed to be RO water with some minerals added. Its only 27 cents a gallon but I would have to buy a couple of their 5 gallon jugs. In the long run its much cheaper than 88 cents a gallon for their distilled. If I used this water do you enter the numbers in a water calculator like its distilled with no numbers?

Do you say what minerals they add?

I'm very skeptical of RO machines at Walmart....

It didn't say. That's what concerns me.

nyer said:

I was at my local Walmart and I see they have a primo water dispenser and its supposed to be RO water with some minerals added.

...

If I used this water do you enter the numbers in a water calculator like its distilled with no numbers?

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No, clearly not. You must enter the mineral content of the water which is, in this case, mostly determined by what they put in.

You could send a sample off to Ward Labs. This would work for you if they are consistent in what they add which they probably are.

GotPushrods said:

I'm a huge nerd that enjoys the process, so I use 5 models before every mash. EZ, Bru'n, Kai (spreadsheet), and both web models on Brewers Friend. ...

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Here is another mash pH predictor for your arsenal, MpH Water Calculator, available at http://homebrewingphysics.blogspot.com

The equations that the calculator uses are based on an extensive analysis (described in two papers on the same site) of Kai Troester's extensive data. Like most other calculators (aside from that of AJD) the equations are entirely phenomenological. It typically predicts mash pH values that are quite close to the predictions of the more recent Brewer's Friend calculator.

Based on feedback, I know that it works quite well for some people.

Cheers!

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ajdelange said:

I am very interested in any recent Ward Labs reports for samples with pH 8.4 or higher. They had been bobbling the calculation of carbonate and bicarbonate (and thus anion content) for years and though they said they would put in the corrections I have never been absolutely sure that they did. These numbers are correct and so it appears that they have taken care of this.

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@ajdelange

AJ, how "recent" is recent? I have a Ward Labs report for here in New Orleans from 02/14, with a pH of 9.2 (see below). I am working to get a more updated copy, but are you saying this report could possibly be flawed?

This must have been a pre-fix report as bicarbonate and carbonate are both off a bit being in actually more like 153 and 13 than 130 and 25. This is quite a lot but then your pH is unusually high. Even so the error is not too serious. The place you would run into trouble is where a program prefers entry of a bicarbonate number naively assuming that it is always a proxy for alkalinity.

nyer said:

It didn't say. That's what concerns me.

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I found this PDF for Primo water. It shows 12ppm chloride, 7.6ppm sulfate, with 33ppm total dissolved solids. It states pH as 5.2 - 7.41, which is not very helpful. I didn't see listings for carbonates/bicarbonates, or alkalinity, so we only get part of the story.

I decided to use distilled water. I'm mashing right now. It sucks to have to haul 10 gallons of water and spend an extra $10 but I think the quality of the beer will be worth it.

Ive been using Bru'n Water for the past 2 years and it has dramatically changed my beers. Same for my buddy who brews. I played around with it for a few days to get a good grasp on how to use it, and its now considered an indispensable tool.

I use RO water, as my local water is very high in bicarbonate. I pick mine up at Kroger for the Glacier machine for $.35/gallon. They service it often, or I must be lucky, as I always seem to fill up within a day or two of its most recent service.

If you're using an RO vending machine, do yourself a favor and buy a simple handheld TDS meter with ATC. The stories we've heard about water from these machines....

nyer said:

I decided to use distilled water. I'm mashing right now. It sucks to have to haul 10 gallons of water and spend an extra $10 but I think the quality of the beer will be worth it.

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After a dozen or so brews, you've just spent enough to get a decent RO system.

I'm still buying bulk water at the store, but the more I read about that stuff, the more I think an RO system is in my future.

MaxStout said:

After a dozen or so brews, you've just spent enough to get a decent RO system.



I'm still buying bulk water at the store, but the more I read about that stuff, the more I think an RO system is in my future.

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Good RO systems typically cost a bit more than 12 brews worth of water. I looked into them a couple times and keep concluding that you'd have to brew a LOT of beer to make them worthwhile. Don't forget the replacement filter costs and the cost of all that waste water.

Throw into that equation the fact that if you're brewing at home, and you buy an RO, you can stop buying bottled drinking water.

Russ

Buckeye_Hydro said:

Throw into that equation the fact that if you're brewing at home, and you buy an RO, you can stop buying bottled drinking water.

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This assumes 2 things:

1) You currently buy bottled drinking water
2) You want to drink RO water


I don't buy drinking water, I use the filtered water from my refrigerator. So I wouldn't be saving any money there.

And regularly drinking RO water is not something I would recommend to anyone. The health risks greatly outweigh the advantages. Drinking any type of demineralized water is not healthy over the long run.

MagicMatt said:

The health risks greatly outweigh the advantages. Drinking any type of demineralized water is not healthy over the long run.

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What are the health risks? I would assume that people who live in the Pacific Northwest, where the water is similar to RO, are subject to the same risks. Have the authorities warned them of these?

ajdelange said:

What are the health risks? I would assume that people who live in the Pacific Northwest, where the water is similar to RO, are subject to the same risks. Have the authorities warned them of these?

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Well first let me preface by saying that I know where I stand compared to you in regards to knowledge of water chemistry (IOW: I'm an idiot, you're a genius). I greatly look up to you (as well as Kai, Martin, et al) for the plethora of information y'all bring to the game. So please don't take my posts as anything more than face value, as I'm sure you can point out some fallacies in my arguments.


However, even though you may find some contradictory information online about the health risks/benefits of reverse osmosis water (as you can find contradictory information on any subject on the interent), it would seem that a great deal of information points to long term negative effects with consuming only demineralized water as a sole water source.

I've seen a World Health Organization study that revealed some of the health risks associated with drinking demineralized water. It included gastrointestinal problems, bone density issues, joint conditions, and cardiovascular disease. Removing the naturally occurring minerals also leaves the water nearly tasteless.

Also, according to the report RO systems leave the water acidic. This is apparently one of the primary reasons RO water is unhealthy, because removing the minerals often makes the water well below 7.0 pH. Drinking acidic water will not help maintain a healthy pH balance in the blood, which should be slightly alkaline from my understanding.

I've seen instances (depending on the source water and the specific RO system) with the pH ranging from about 3.0 to 7.0.

And I'm no doctor, but I've read that acidosis in the body is considered an underlying cause of most degenerative diseases, including cancer.

According to the WHO study, low mineral water increased diuresis (the production of urine by the kidneys) 20% on average and markedly increased the elimination of sodium, potassium, chloride, calcium and magnesium ions from the body.

Also, while reverse osmosis is effective for removing a variety of contaminants in water, the reverse osmosis membrane alone does not remove volatile organic chemicals, chlorine and chloramines, pharmaceuticals, and other synthetic chemicals found in municipal water. You'd need a multi-stage filtration media (activated carbon, etc) in order to remove the chlorine and certain pesticides. I understand this is a common addtional component of modern RO systems though.

So, while I'm sure many people drink RO water without much issue, it is still a cause for concern with me. I drink a lot of water daily (>100oz), so with increased intake comes increased risk.

Again, I'm sure I'm blowing all of this out of proportion in terms of other things I do that impart a greater health risk, and I realize that a normal diet should supplement most of the minerals lost from drinking RO water, but to each their own I suppose. To me, it isn't worth the risk. And coupled with the cost and waste of RO systems, it's just not something that fits my lifestyle. If I got one, I wouldn't use it for drinking water, which would increase the cost per use (and thus a longer ROI) if I only used it for say brewing and cooking.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts AJ!

Fortunately, RO is not demineralized. Greatly reduced, but not devoid. That last few percent is what makes DI so corrosive.

Interesting article by WHO. Potential health effects aside, I simply don't like the flat taste of RO/DI water. I only use it for two things: brewing beer and making coffee (less mineral buildup in the coffee maker).

MaxStout said:

Interesting article by WHO. Potential health effects aside, I simply don't like the flat taste of RO/DI water. I only use it for two things: brewing beer and making coffee (less mineral buildup in the coffee maker).

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But we're talking about RO here, not RODI. Two very different beasts.

We have customers with municipal tap water @ ~20 ppm TDS.

Buckeye_Hydro said:

But we're talking about RO here, not RODI. Two very different beasts.

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The WHO article didn't make that distinction, referring instead to "demineralized water," as an umbrella term to include both, and also distilled.

My point was more about taste, which applies to both RO and DI.

But thanks for the update!

Hmm. We rarely have anyone dislike the taste of RO. RODI water on the other hand, definitely is flat/odd tasting.

Very very easy to add minerals back into either - the amount added back in is typically controlled by a needle valve in the systems we deal with most frequently. We do this commonly for our commercial coffee-making customers.