water chemistry experiment with NE Pale Ale

So after a couple years of all-grain brewing, I'm finally learning about water chemistry, and I got at least some local water reports to get in the ballpark until I spring for a water test kit. Turns out my water is very low in both sulfate and chloride (27 and 5 ppm respectively), so I thought it might be educational to conduct an experiment. I just brewed my first new england pale ale without any water adjustments and I'll be drinking that tailgating at the famous potato bowl tonight. My plan this weekend is to brew 2 identical new england pale ales, only varying the sulfate and chloride levels. One I was going to do about what WeldWerks' Neil Fisher uses, around 150 ppm chloride and 50-60 ppm sulfate, and then reverse that for the other batch, with about 150 ppm sulfate, and only 50-60 ppm chloride, and see how they taste.

So just wanting a little feedback from more experienced brewers as to whether that is likely to be a productive approach, and whether those ratios seem likely to provide the learning and feedback I seek, or should I maybe do more sulfate in the 2nd batch. Thanks for any suggestions or ideas.

I use the Bru'n Water Pale Ale profile.

Calcium 140
Magnesium 18
Sodium 25
Sulfate 300
Chloride 55

Some are scared of the high sulfate level, but I found I enjoy it the most.

Sounds good - and I think 150 ppm is as high as I'd go. Any higher would be kind of like dumping table salt into your soup just so you can definitely taste the salt.

I go no higher than 100 ppm for either SO4 or Cl for any beer. The only thing I'd even say is to leave the opposing factor even lower - don't add any gypsum for your Chloride beer (27 ppm in the native water), and add up to 30 ppm Cl for your SO4 beer. If only to accentuate the element you're focusing on.

Edit: As you can see from the reply above mine, people's tastes really vary on mineral additions.

I brew these beers a lot. Recently did 3 batches of exact same beer with the following Sulfate:Chloride ratio;

140:70
70:140
120:120

I have all 3 on tap right now. All brewed within 7 days of each other. All identical in every other way. When I taste them blind one against another in a triangle test, I cannot consistently tell the difference. When others taste them blind, one against another in a triangle test, they can't tell the difference either.

Oddly though, almost everyone says they kind of like the 120:120 the best due to the fullness/mouthfeel seeming a bit better.

Braufessor said:

I brew these beers a lot. Recently did 3 batches of exact same beer with the following Sulfate:Chloride ratio;

140:70
70:140
120:120

I have all 3 on tap right now. All brewed within 7 days of each other. All identical in every other way. When I taste them blind one against another in a triangle test, I cannot consistently tell the difference. When others taste them blind, one against another in a triangle test, they can't tell the difference either.

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that is interesting, but somewhat plausible considering the ratios are still close-ish. Sort of makes me lean towards mcknuckle's idea of not adding any chloride to the high sulfate version.

I do 350 SO4 and 50 Cl for my "NE" IPA's... Flavor is exactly what I am after. I don't buy the whole high chloride thing for NE IPA's. Mouthfeel, hop flavor and bitterness are all perfect for the beers I have done with high sulfates.

I have pushed sulfate in the 200-250 range with chloride low (below 50) and I personally did not care for that as much. It was not bad or anything, but I felt it came across drier/more assertive than what I was looking for.

I do think there are perceptible differences when you get to ratios like that, and from there it is just preference. But, that 50-150 range.... it is pretty hard to really pick out much that is significant at that point.

Have you seen this?

http://brulosophy.com/2016/10/03/water-chemistry-pt-6-sulfate-to-chloride-ratio-exbeeriment-results/

NewkyBrown said:

Have you seen this?

http://brulosophy.com/2016/10/03/water-chemistry-pt-6-sulfate-to-chloride-ratio-exbeeriment-results/

Click to expand...

I really like those guys and their experiments.

I ended up going with 170 chloride, 65 or so sulfate in batch #1 (currently boiling) because that's what neil fisher's recipe calls for.

Batch 2 I may go no additional chloride just to isolate the sulfate, or I may go 50. I have a couple days to think about it.

Why do you add the salts and chalks to the mash and not the spare water?

enkamania said:

I use the Bru'n Water Pale Ale profile.

Calcium 140
Magnesium 18
Sodium 25
Sulfate 300
Chloride 55

Some are scared of the high sulfate level, but I found I enjoy it the most.

Click to expand...

That sulfate level scares me as I'd think it would accentuate the bitterness to the point it was perceived as harsh. Albiet I've never experimented in that range though.

If I'm going for a West Coast feel my profile is:

Calcium 100
Magnesium 24
Sodium 50
Sulfate 200
Chloride 85

For New England I go:

Calcium 125
Magnesium 18
Sodium 60
Sulfate 90
Chloride 180

Redtab78 said:

Why do you add the salts and chalks to the mash and not the spare water?

Click to expand...

i add to both, and am speaking of the total numbers. sorry for the confusion.

Typically go for 200:100 sulfate to chloride.

I've used that bru'n water pale ale profile a few times with great results. Don't be scared of the 300 sulfate.

so far, so good. I bottled the 2nd version of the NEPA high-ish sulfate) last night. It's been 3 days since I bottled and tasted the high chloride batch, but I *think* I perceive a difference in them. It will be interesting to do a blind triangle test with my wife in a couple weeks. they are both extremely delicious.

So it's been 2 weeks after bottling, this afternoon mrs moto and I did a triangle test of the 2 versions of neipa (high sulfate vs high chloride).





Mrs moto is mostly a drinker of non-hoppy beers, particularly stouts, sours, usw. She is also a certified wine snob and a fine chef with a very sensitive palate, even for things she doesn't necessarily like. I poured 4 glasses and had her serve me three, then I served her three (so we wouldn't know which one was which, or which one was duplicated). We were both able to pick out the different beer, especially if we took a moment to let our palate clear out between tastes. The first time through I rushed and incorrectly identified the last one.

Much to the lack of surprise of anyone who has ever been married, she preferred the chloride version pretty strongly, while I preferred the sulfate version slightly. I think in the long term, I'll probably go more like 125/100 or 150/100 chloride to sulfate. I found them both delicious, but the chloride version could possibly be a little too salty-sweet.... if i'm splitting hairs. After we were done, I poured all the leftovers into one glass, and found that to be 'just right'.

bottom line is that I think the chloride/sulfate amounts are just one of many thing going on in this style, and clearly the main characteristics of the fruitiness and aroma are coming from elsewhere. I'm guessing that the dryhopping during active fermentation is a big part of it, because even using the same hop varieties with other beers, I've never made this kind of citrusy sweet fruit bomb.