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Zider

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Is definitely a good buy. Just brewed an ale and a lager using liquid yeasts and a DME starter. The difference in flavour in both is stunning . I will never go back to dried yeast (except for bottling).
Immediately you notice that distinctive homebrew aroma is missing, infact the yeast imparts nice flavours for once.

Don't delay get some today.
 
Glad you have found something that works for you.

But what do you mean, "except for bottling" - ? You don't generally need to add yeast for bottling.
 
One isn't any better than the other. There's just more variety in liquid yeast. Don't buy any 1056 if you think like that. ;)
 
I was using dried yeast supplied with kits. They were OK, they worked but the flavour always gave the beer away.
This time I bought yeast matched for the beer type from White labs
http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/homebrew_strains.html
I was sceptical but what the hell? Also was having problem with slow fermentations and getting mild bacterial infection from time to time and was googling about and found out about live yeasts and using starters.
Try it yourself and see if you agree. Also I read somewhere that lager yeasts cannot be made dried and that the dried ones are actually ale yeast with lager characteristics.
The beauty of these is that although they cost a few bucks you can freeze them with glycerol as explained I used method 2 https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Freezing_yeast
So you can quickly have a lot of it and swap different strains between brewers and I think it's worth it. Maybe more so with lagers that are longer ferments...Not sure, any opinions?
 
Are you adding yeast to your bottling? That might be why you have some interesting flavors.

I don't think so.

The best free 'how to' guide I found was here
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers
It's pretty high level but at least it explains step by step. One of the things they mention for carbonation is to add dried yeast because fermentation rate is an effect of cell number, temperature, alcohol content and sugar. At the end of fermentation all you can change is temperature and cell number because you can't add too much sugar, that is fixed.

Edit: OK I reread it, adding yeast was suggested for carbonation in bottles after lagering. I did it before lagering. No harm done as far as I can tell.

They also say that no flavours are imparted by the yeast at this stage. I tasted the beer a week later, because I was curious and didn't believe them either. Nothing. Not a hint and fizzy as ..err beer.
Anyway now winter is well and truly here, I am going to do a lot more lagers because I have plenty of cold rooms in basement. I finally get it now that the fermentation itself raises the brew temperature. Without a yeast that is happy at 10 degrees C I can't see how it can work well. Clever b ggers those Germans anyway, who always took their beer seriously, see paragraphs
12,13,14 http://encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/512.html
 
I mostly disagree. Kit yeasts might be inferior, don't know. But I have to say that for many beers S-05 (clean ale), S-04 (english ale), S-23 (spicey perfumey lager), and W34/70 (clean lager) are great, great yeasts.

I randomly do both dry and liquid. I often split a 10 gallon batch and compare dry and liquid.

You'll still need liquid for belgians, hefeweisens, saissons, etc that get much of their flavor from the yeast.
 
it sounds to me like you're making things a lot harder than they need to be. And the different flavor could just be a factor of the different yeasts having different characteristics. If you want to do lagers, then yes, liquid yeast is the best way to go. But that is not to say that for other beers dry isn't a good alternative.
 
I don't think so.

The best free 'how to' guide I found was here
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers
It's pretty high level but at least it explains step by step. One of the things they mention for carbonation is to add dried yeast because fermentation rate is an effect of cell number, temperature, alcohol content and sugar. At the end of fermentation all you can change is temperature and cell number because you can't add too much sugar, that is fixed.

Edit: OK I reread it, adding yeast was suggested for carbonation in bottles after lagering. I did it before lagering. No harm done as far as I can tell.

They also say that no flavours are imparted by the yeast at this stage. I tasted the beer a week later, because I was curious and didn't believe them either. Nothing. Not a hint and fizzy as ..err beer.
Anyway now winter is well and truly here, I am going to do a lot more lagers because I have plenty of cold rooms in basement. I finally get it now that the fermentation itself raises the brew temperature. Without a yeast that is happy at 10 degrees C I can't see how it can work well. Clever b ggers those Germans anyway, who always took their beer seriously, see paragraphs
12,13,14 http://encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/512.html

Braukaiser is a friend of mine (well, of many of us!) and he's an expert in lagers and German techniques. You're mixing it up here, using yeast to bottle ales when he's totally talking about lagers. You've also mentioned adding yeast, bottling then lagering. So are you using ale yeast or lager yeast?

Unless you've used dry lager yeast? I've never used dry lager yeast. Remember that using liquid yeast usually requires a starter, especially for lagers, and pitching the correct amount of yeast is crucial- but the brand you choose is not.

Most of the kits I see have garbage yeast in them- Munton's and Cooper's notably. The packages are too small (6 grams) and the yeast are not good for fermenting all malt beers. Throw away any Munton's and Cooper's yeast right away, and use a good quality yeast, either liquid or dry. (NOT "live"- all of the yeast is live.)

But there are plenty of quality dry ale yeast strains as mentioned. To lump them all together and say that liquid yeast is inherently better is a mistake.
 
All I know is that by using live yeast I have made the best beer I have ever made and the first beers that I could fool someone into believing it was a commercial, utterly flawless, and this has reignited my interest in beer brewing because it is pretty soul destroying throwing gallons of funky beer away. I believe that's why most people give up. Perhaps I could have done the same with a quality dry yeast, or by using a starter..
I think if more beginners had the delight of tons of yummy beer first time and consistently then that would be a good thing and if having the right yeast (agreed mainly an issue for lager) makes that more likely then why not. If cleanliness is not an issue yet the beer tastes odd then I don't see the harm except more expensive.

Regarding yeast type, I don't know, I used the dried yeast that came with the kit (for bottling) Mr.Braukaiser says regarding bottle carbonation of lager post-lagering:
"Because the yeast has been inactive for such a long time and only little yeast is in suspension anyway, it is recommended to add fresh yeast at bottling time to ensure consistent carbonation in a reasonable time frame. The fresh yeast can come from either dry yeast (1/4 pack should be enough), yeast sediment from the primary fermenter of another batch or Kraeusen. The type of yeast doesn't matter much since the flavor has already been defined during the fermentation and cold conditioning process. Any clean well flocculating ale or lager yeast will do. "
I mis-read it and added more yeast before lagering and it tasted fine, perhaps I was lucky. Tanks for the comments, I guess it's not straightforward but I am a convert even if it is placebo effect.
 
Liquid and Dry yeast are BOTH "Live Yeast" your beer wouldn't ferment with dead yeast.

Based on what I'm gleaning by your descriptions of things, please don't be offended if I say that your understanding of the basics of fermentation and the bottling process is very limited, and becuause of that your reading of Kaiser's work and using defning what's happening to you, and what happened to your earlier beers is tantamount to reading, Sabiston Textbook of Surgery: The Biological Basis of Modern Surgical Practice on your first day of med school and attempting to perform brain surgery, without even taking gross anatom.

The simple fact that you keep calling dry yeast "dead" yeast gives me some pause.

S-04 and S-05 are not "generic" yeasts, whatever that means. 04 is an english ale strain, while 05 is the same "chico" strain that is in liquid form by both wyyeast and whitelabs. 05- is a clean, neutral ale yeast used for many american ales, whether they are IPAs or Stouts.

And Liquid and Dry both have their place.

I have found that a lot of new brewers especially, THINK they HAVE to use liquid yeast, but in reality most ales can be made with Notty, Windsor, Us-05, Us-04 and many lagers with basic Saflager.....7-8 bucks a pop for liquid as opposed to $1.50-2.50 for dry, with more cell count, is imho just a waste of money for the majority of a brewer's recipe bank...most commercial ales us a limited range of strains, and those liquid strains are really the same strains that the afore mentioned dry strains cover, for example Us-05 is the famed "Chico strain", so if you are paying 7-8 bucks for Wyeast 1056 American/Chico Ale Yeast, and you STILL have to make a starter to have enough viable cells, then you are ripping yourself off, in terms of time and money....

I use dry yeast for 99% of my beers, for basic ales I use safale 05, for more british styles I us safale 04 and for basic lagers I use saflager..

The only time I use liquid yeast is if I am making a beer where the yeast drives the style, where certain flavor characteristics are derived from the yeast, such as phenols. Like Belgian beers, where you get spicy/peppery flavors from the yeast and higher temp fermentation. Or let's say a wheat beer (needing a lowly flocculant yest) or a Kholsch, where the style of the beer uses a specific yeast strain that is un available in dry form.

But if you are looking for a "clean" yeast profile, meaning about 90% of american ales, the 05, or nottingham is the way to go. Need "Bready" or yeasty for English ales, then 04 or windsor. Want a clean, low profile lager yeast- saflager usually does the trick.

Even John Palmer, who's book How to brew, I really think you need to read BEFORE you try to tackle kai (consider it the Grey's anatomy of brewing books) doesn't bash dry yeast.

Palmer doesn't bash dry yeasts...

Yeast come in two main product forms, dry and liquid. (There is also another form, available as pure cultures on petri dishes or slants, but it is generally used as one would use liquid yeast.) Dry yeast are select, hardy strains that have been dehydrated for storability. There are a lot of yeast cells in a typical 7 gram packet. For best results, it needs to be re-hydrated before it is pitched. For the first-time brewer, a dry ale yeast is highly recommended.

Dry yeast is convenient for the beginning brewer because the packets provide a lot of viable yeast cells, they can be stored for extended periods of time and they can be prepared quickly on brewing day. It is common to use one or two packets (7 - 14 grams) of dried yeast for a typical five gallon batch. This amount of yeast, when properly re-hydrated, provides enough active yeast cells to ensure a strong fermentation. Dry yeast can be stored for extended periods (preferably in the refrigerator) but the packets do degrade with time. This is one of the pitfalls with brewing from the no-name yeast packets taped to the top of a can of malt extract. They are probably more than a year old and may not be very viable. It is better to buy another packet or three of a reputable brewer's yeast that has been kept in the refrigerator at the brewshop. Some leading and reliable brands of dry yeast are DCL Yeast, Yeast Labs (marketed by G.W. Kent, produced by Lallemand of Canada), Cooper's, DanStar (produced by Lallemand), Munton & Fison and Edme.

Dry yeasts are good but the rigor of the dehydration process limits the number of different ale strains that are available and in the case of dry lager yeast, eliminates them almost entirely. A few dry lager yeasts do exist, but popular opinion is that they behave more like ale yeasts than lager. DCL Yeast markets two strains of dry lager yeast, Saflager S-189 and S-23, though only S-23 is currently available in a homebrewing size. The recommended fermentation temperature is 48-59°F. I would advise you to use two packets per 5 gallon batch to be assured of a good pitching rate.

The only thing missing with dry yeast is real individuality, which is where liquid yeasts come in. Many more different strains of yeast are available in liquid form than in dry.

Liquid yeast used to come in 50 ml foil pouches, and did not contain as many yeast cells as in the dry packets. The yeast in these packages needed to be grown in a starter wort to bring the cell counts up to a more useful level. In the past few years, larger 175 ml pouches (Wyeast Labs) and ready-to-pitch tubes (White Labs) have become the most popular forms of liquid yeast packaging and contain enough viable cells to ferment a five gallon batch.

I think your "flavor" issues with dry yeast comes from either your specific use of more "generic" dry yeasts, or more than likely came form some other aspect of your brewing process.

The Yeast like Notty, Us-05, u-04, and many others, made my Danstar, and fermentis are some of the best yeast around, they are just as good as the liquid strains, in fact, many are the exact same strains as those by whitelabs, and wyyeast, just in dry forms.

Good quality dry yeast has been used by commercial breweries for decades if not longer, and it was only since Homebrewing was legalized was the stuff we know available to homebrewers.

That's why every dry yeast house has industrial divisions.

Danstars website even alludes to this...

The use of active dried professional yeasts for amateur brewing is a relatively new phenomenon introduced by Lallemand. Now, choose your active dried yeast for brewing with confidence. Ask for Danstar superior quality yeasts at your local retailer.

And this from Fermentis....Beer Industrial Brewing Why use Fermentis Yeast

Kai is great, but he's only one opinion and it appears you are basing your understanding of things soley on that.

Honestly, like other's have said, you only need to add fresh yeast at bottling for a very limited set of reasons, NONE of which tend to be in the normal course of our brwwing. The only real reason to do it would be for an extremely high grav beer, where the yeast has been exhausted, or where one has bulk aged for a year or more and the yeast has gone dormant for a long period of time. But in a normal brew, it is unnecessary. And I believe if you read kai reasoning for doing it, you would see the same thing...for certain beers, perhaps, but not for everything.

Besides, Kai tends to focus and write extenseively on Traditional German Brewing Techniques many are historical in nature. And as interesting as they may be, and as necessary as they may be for recreating certain specific styles of german beers. They don't necessarily apply in the regular course of brewing.

I would encourage you to do some further reading of other things, especially Palmer's book, and expand your understanding of the fundamentals of brewing, and of yeast, and you will realize that there are many ways to approach things. And usually they ALL work.
 
Thanks for this. Just so you know, I do know that dry yeast is not dead...I guess I should rephrase to 'liquid'. I'm looking forward to reading these and widening my understanding.

Cheers!

By the way...brain surgery...it's not rocket science is it? :)
 
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I think if more beginners had the delight of tons of yummy beer first time and consistently then that would be a good thing and if having the right yeast (agreed mainly an issue for lager) makes that more likely then why not.

Brewing is a never-ending learning experience for what I have seen... You may get lucky with a first batch, most people who stick around and brew do it for their own reason, much like any other hobby. You cant master something your first or first few times around, with time comes knowledge. My first batch turned out crappy, my second batch turned out a little better, etc...
 
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